In the red corner its Swiss ski school & in the blue corner it's French ski school

A snowHead

It will be interesting to get the verdict of the kids and report back to this thread after Easter. It will also be a novel experience for them to be instructed in English!!

I have a notion that they will find the French ski school lessons more Dynamic and perhaps more attractive to them for that reason. However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating and the real test will be their reaction to the different lessons.

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stewart woodward, that's interesting, when I was at the ESI here it was really strict and the isntructor teaching the kids was not allowed to assess on exam day. Very serious indeed.

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My neighbour's kids (who live in Geneva) are doing the ESF system. They all ski quite a bit in the season, they're all doing well, they're quite keen, but they don't seem to expect to go up a class every time they do a week. Maybe British parents whose kids ski very occasionally expect too much - of both the kids and the instructors. The kids are very pleased if they get their "badges" but they don't seem to be devastated if they don't.

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pam w, The only thing I'm trying to avoid is kids who are at the moment moaning that they find ski school boring. First and foremost the lessons should be fun for them to do, if they learn to ski and progress at the same time then the money has been well spent. Ideally I would want to avoid a situation where they are in a class that is too high for them and end up, in their eyes, being put down from where they are intially placed. Far better that they start too low and see the reverse occur.

On the basis of length of time skied I booked for the Prosneige bronze for the 6 yr old and silver for the 9 yr courses for them. It wasn't until I had a good look at what they had been ticked for in the Swiss books this year (brought about when my daughter said she didn't think she had progressed) and had discussed with various people about how Swiss lessons were structured in terms of what the kids achieve at each level (until this year this equated to 'at each year' for my kids), that it occurred to me just to check that they would be OK in the Prosneige course booked for them. That was when I noticed the apparent difference and began to wonder if I had over booked them. I just don't want disappointed kids, what I do want is kids that are going to have a great time at ski school and who want to go each day.

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So much depends on the individual instructor as far as children are concerned. An adult may put up with a less competent instructor on the basis that you will still learn something. Children on the other hand seem to be able to sense the less competent like animals can smell fear!
On the issue of "progression" I remember being extremely perturbed that number 1 Psychoette didn't get her gold medal 1st time whereas her 2 friends did. Of course I encouraged her and didn't let my misgivings show to the instructor. She is now (3 years on) a more accomplished skier than the other 2. In contrast this half term I saw an English father berating an instructor for daring to move his child down a level. Child was very upset and human nature being what it is the instructor probably looked less kindly on the child as a result- pointless behaviour.

the point is - it's not necessarily being moved down or up - it's being put in the right group - sell it!

pam w, The most distraught child I've ever seen was french and 7 years old.

PsychoBabble, I'm horrified that the father thought he knew more than the instructor! Typical! rolling eyes

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easiski, yes - I'm not suggesting French kids don't get distraught! I suppose because our neighbours have plenty of time, they are not too bothered how fast the kids progress, and happy to leave it to the ski school. It's supposed to be fun. If parents get "extremely perturbed" then kids will pick up on it. I think kids like instructors who do fun things - like take them on the little knobbly pathways through the trees, and get them skiing backwards. Which may, or may not, also be the ones who get them through the wretched "badges" fastest. One of my sons did his first ever ski lessons in Austria. He was 7, total beginner and the only English speaker. The other total beginners were 4 years old. He towered above them, but I don't recall his being bothered about it - except one time when the instructor left him to take one of the teenies back to the ski school at lunchtime (normally Nick came up to our apartment under his own steam, for lunch, as his instructor knew). The ski school thought they were supposed to be "minding" him, and wouldn't let him out. They didn't understand his English explanation that his Mum was expecting him home for lunch. By the time I set off in search and found him he was in tears of frustration. But he was fine to go off again the next day - he loved it so much.

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Kids do pick up on what their parents are feeling, so if you are frustrated at them being moved groups, then they will be upset. If you sell it to them as being a really exciting thing then they'll love it. Don't say it's moving down, say it's moving to a more fun group/better instructor etc.

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abc, Well said

Megamum, If you stress less the kids will - all this stuff comes first from the parents - whether it's skiing in a 'foreign' language class or thinking something is beneath them or a 'demotion'.

You know it makes sense.

I can assure you 'mother' isnt being sensitive, purely asking advice about comparrison between the systems and how they mesh. It appears to have 'drifted away from this original request for advice.

For the 'dont get at the swiss schools ' team. They have been to the same swiss resort, 3 times, different instructors, and when one child who loves ski-ing and has a i'll do anything approach, almost begs not to have ski school 'coz its boring', its worrying.

I have seen and experienced both schools. For me, other ski schools and the Prosneige learning experience is head and shoulders above what I experienced in the Swiss resort. The only time they changed their 'this is the way we do it ' approach was when I cancelled the remaining private lesson. Again, to me that speaks volumes.

I for one, wont be having any lessons in that resort again, I dont suppose they'll miss the money though! wink

I believe there wont be an issue in France, with Prosniege. I expect that there will be an update posted by Megamum in 7 weeks time, after the visit. Smile

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

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I suggest it's all relative.......If you are going to a french ski resort suggest a french ski school would be best and vice . Otherwise logistics may be you biggest headache and not how your children are being taught to have fun learning the worlds best sport!!

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The most important factor is quality of the instructor. Get a good one (regardless of where he or she trained) and you're much more likely to make progress than if you end up with a bad or indifferent instructor (regardless of where he or she trained). Making sure you get a good one is the trick.

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BMF_Skier, Thread drift? On Snowheads? Never!!! I can't believe that such a thing could happen Laughing

But, yes, esentially you are right. The issue foremost in my mind is still whether there is a fundamental difference between the two methods and if there is how much this affects things when you move between the two. Will one method teach you quicker than other (whether as a child or as an adult).

SwissSnowBunny accepted the question as asked and provided their full rationale of the Swiss system along with its possible shortcomings and what it accomplishes. I thought that this information was very clear and was interested with the fact that it directly supported what we were told in Switzerland, very much indicating that this method was deployed across Switzerland and that we weren't dealing with an artifact of a very small ski resort and its relative isolation from the much larger locations. The method is systematic and progressive teaching every skill along the way and limits progression unless previous skills have been learned. Rather like learning the read and write. I should think it is brilliant for local children who get several weeks 'education' each year and who can remember and build on the fundamental skills learned from one week to the next.

However, the average UK ski punter on their weeks holiday doesn't have the luxury of completing a, say 20 week, course in 3-4 years. For this punter does the French system have advantages. The French system, from what I've seen, appears, to teach broad generalised skills in a much quicker way. It gets the 'punter' up and going far quicker enabling greater enjoyment of the larger snowy area in a quicker manner.

For example, I had a Prosneige lesson last December. After watching me ski a short slope in my own style within an hour the instructor had me literally thundering down a slope carrying out large wide carved type turns, in control and with up and down movement, and with me having a whale of a time with confidence increasing at every turn.

A couple of weeks ago I had a Swiss lesson. I demonstrated the sort of turns (at least I think I did) that I been doing with Prosneige, and was taken back to slowly working on the turn itself, striking a quite firm pole plant, skiing round it, over exagerating the up and down movement. This made me feel as though I had made hardly any progress at all and also resulted in a far less enjoyable learning experience.

There must be a difference in the two systems. I'm sure each has its merits, but I do wonder if the French method is better for your holiday punter type than the Swiss method.

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BMF_Skier, same resort probably means same managment. In the town I work at, there are 4 ski schools, and one is run by an absolute Evil or Very Mad

. As a result, all of that school's instructors are somewhat demotivated, and concentrate on getting the kids to progress progress progress at the expense of all else. The ski school I work at is the opposite, some may say too much so. We have fun, and don't push half as hard. Maybe the other kids will end up better skiers, but its the kids from the other ski school that ski along crying, tantrum when they have to be left etc.

I'm not saying the ski school I work for is perfect - but myself and a friend from the other ski school had the same level groups (a couple of days skiing, ready to try their first blue run level). The friend went up the button and down the blue, pushing the kids to ski faster so they could go on a 'more impressive' run, as the parents must see progress. We played games on the run - skiied with polystyrene horses to get weight forwards, played at stop and go so they could stop quickly, did some little bumps and jumps at the side of the piste, etc. My kids LOVED it - 'please please can we do the jumps again, please please can we get horseys again'....but at no point did I tell them to hurry up so we can go on the run to impress mummy. I'm not saying I am a better instructor-I know for a fact that my friend is a far better skier than I am, and has more experience, but my kids seemed happier. And guess what....we both did the 'impressive' run at the same time.

I've waffled a lot, but what I am saying is, 2 instructors can be from the same system, but internal pressures can bring the quality of an instructor, or even a whole ski school down with ridiculous targets and trying to keep parents happy. BMF_Skier, I suspect your children may be older than the age I described, but I would urge you not to judge a whole system by one resort/ski school, who may have its own motives.

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Megamum, you seem determined to cling to the notion that there is a Swiss system and a French system!

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Megamum, I do wonder if (oh god it pains me to say this) the French system might work better for adults, particularly beginners/intermediates? I think the Swiss are so focused on getting kids skiing, they forget that adults won't learn at the same pace/in the same way. The Swiss have a great off-piste programme for advanced adults, but if there are any shortcomings, I think it may be the beginner/intermediate adults who suffer. I know all my training has been focused on children's learning, and there is a lot more offered in terms of courses/training in conjunction with children.

Although of course, there is one downside, to use the French system means one has to go to France.... Twisted Evil

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rob@rar, swisssnowbunny, hasn't denied yet that there could be, in fact they refer to their method and quotes, a 'French system' as though there actually is the difference that I perceive.

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Megamum, OK, I give up. You can believe that they are different and ne'er the twain shall meet if you want. But you should note that swisssnowbunny pointed out that in her resort there are four Swiss ski schools with marked differences between them. So which one of these is "the Swiss system"? easiski, who is the most experienced instructor who has contributed to this thread, said this:

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davidof, ah, thanks. I know ISS as ESI. Think I must have misheard/misunderstood something that was said to me in VT during last season's EOSB.

You know it makes sense.

rob@rar, The guys that started Prosneige where both formerly Directors of the ESF (IFIRC Christophe and Phillipe) in Val Thorens , maybe that's where the confusion is arising.
Lionel and Alain were both inspirational teachers of my and ntfarmers kids over three seasons. Very Happy

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Boredsurfing, yes, that might be it.

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rob@rar, Megamum, I can neither confirm nor deny the existance of a Swiss/French/anywhere model!!!

I know that SSS has a programme/curriculum which it loosely follows, as does ESF I believe. The key word being loosely, as easiski described. Obviously, each skischool trains its staff differently and has different focus. I know in my town, one school also uses the Burton boarding scheme, and one just follows its own structure, the rest are largely based on SSS, but apply it's guidelines very differently (see my above post).

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richmond, I find kids fairly naturally do the right things if brought along gently (not necessarily slowly), however it often happens that parents rush their little darlings onto relatively steep runs, and the kids get stuck in a monstrous plough! Shocked

On many occasions the plough is so wide that not only do they sit down frequently, they often can't turn because they're stuck in between the skis. Shocked

The locals I know keep their kids on gentle nursery and green runs much longer than impatient holiday parents - result - kids not leaning back, not scared and skiing well. Very Happy

However, this does not imply a slavish following of strict guidelines. wink

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Just as an observation, I find it highly unlikely that I am about to rush my kids down the nearest black!! At this moment in time I'm still hoping that my newly discovered comfort zone in reds will be sufficient to keep my nose in front of the them...........at least for the next week or so Laughing

So, if the protestations of the instructors on this thread are to be believed, and contrary to my own experience, do I conclude that every country teaches its ski students using the same curriculum, progression guide and within the skills of the instructors themselves, using the same methods of teaching?

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I think what they're saying is that there can be big differences between instructors (and particularly the enjoyment kids will have with them) even within the same ski school. There are also differences between schools in the same country (marked difference between the two in our small French resort - we always use the International one). If there are also some generic differences between countries they are probably less significant than the other two differences.

And I think you'll find that practically all kids, at least some of the time, have moaned that they are bored with (or even "bored of" Evil or Very Mad

) ski school. Only you, as a Mum, will know whether your particular kids will be happiest skiing as the "best in the class" in a group generally a bit below their ability or just about managing to keep up, as the weakest in a group generally above their ability. My two boys were one of each. When they were little the youngest (and much more athletically gifted one) was OK to struggle - and hugely enjoyed, as an adult, going round the Espace Killy with a couple of BASI I instructors on their day off. They were vastly better skiers than he, and he learnt tons. The other lad would have hated it. He's less naturally gifted, less brave, and likes to feel on top of things. Their styles of learning are chalk and cheese.

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Megamum, There is no 'curriculum' - anywhere. There is a 'standard' progression. ie:
straight running
snowplough
snowplough turns
traverse
sideslipping (not always for kids)
snowplough turns evolving into parallel

included along the way should be:
use of edges
balanced position on skis
rules of the piste and responsibility
politeness (especially kids) like saying hello and thank you to lifties etc.

With kids in most schools, most of this is unlikely to be visible as what is being taught since they will be 'counched' in games and generally skiing round the mountain etc.

stewart woodward, Ditto - 9 years with the ESI here, and although their brochure proclaims the teaching of the french system, no-one ever suggested I should change how I teach.

Help!!

In the red corner its Swiss ski school & in the blue corner it's French ski school

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