In the red corner its Swiss ski school & in the blue corner it's French ski school

A snowHead

and ne'er the twain shall meet.

Having now been back to Switzerland and last year having lessons in France myself, and having to now decide which classes to book my kids into in France after them having 3+ years ski school in Switzerland, I become more convinced that their are fundamental differences in the way the two teaching methods operate.

I seem to get on better with the French method.

The French method seems to get you up and skiing quicker, even though it might mean learning specific skills at a later stage, for example, techniques to cope with moguls, steeper slopes and off piste powder. I have got on better since being instructed in the French method. The Swiss method, takes children from the time they can first stand on skis, through to instructor level. It seems to be progressive, but as I heard observed the other night it assumes you have 20 weeks to learn to ski well enough to be safe on the whole mountain. Also the duration of weeks Swiss course is typically shorter - in a week in the Swiss course the child might typically do 5x2hr lessons in a weeks holiday = 10 hrs, in France Prosneige's course give 1x2 hrs and 5 x three hours in the typical week - so 7 hours more tuition in the week (hourly rates are very similar though). This means in three weeks the child in Switzerland has had 21 hrs fewer lessons than the child in France.

Now I have two kids on Blue King level in the Swiss level - they have both had 3+ weeks of skiing, but in the Swiss system are still on snowplough turns (my eldest is possibly verging on a parallel when she thinks about things) in the French system both should be on parallel turns, though both mine are happy to ski reds and the odd black in their own style. It is very difficult to know where they should be placed in France (I will leave it up to the school obviously), but I hope they are not too far behind where they should be.

Anyhow, the point of this thread is that I think it could be interesting to look at the different systems and see what our instructors had to say about their possibly similarities and where they differ. Esp. in view of recent threads that have questioned the aspects of the Swiss system, pole planting etc.

The complete ranking system in the Swiss Ski League programme is as follows:

Snow Garden
Introduction to skis and ski gear, gliding along an incline with skis in parallel position, speed control with skis in snowplow position.

Blue League (beginner):

Blue Prince

Get used to the skis.
Slide down the fall line with both skis parallel.
Controlling speed with snowplough.
First changes of direction with a snowplough turn.
Information on ski equipment.

Blue King Candidate

Blue King

Master a blue run.
Snowplough turns.
Agility exercises in the fall line, parallel skis on the traverse.
Safely take a ski-lift.
Information on safe use of lifts.

Red League (advanced):

Red Prince Candidate

Red Prince

Master a red run.
Parallel turns (skidded).
Side-slip in the traverse and stop. Same down the fall line.
Bumps and depressions.
Information about warming up.

Red King Candidate

Red King

Ski down a red run using varied parallel turns.
Short turns on easy terrain.
Skiing on one ski.
Skating and skating turn.
Information on the FIS safety rules.

Black League (expert):

Clinic 1 - Carving & Turns
Free skiing with cut turns.
Carved turns without poles.
Crawl.
Turns through carving buoys.
Information on evolution of equipment.

Clinic 2 - Synchro & Tricks
Synchronised formation skiing.
Various formation patterns such as cross, diamond, v.
Skiing fakie with parallel turns.
Parallel turns through moguls and unprepared slopes.
Information about the Swiss Demo Team.

Clinic 3 - Park & Pipe
Introduction to skiing through gates. Slalom and Giant Slalom.
Introduction to snowparks.
Jumping and pre-jumping.
Introduction to turns and jump in a half-pipe.
Information on good behaviour in snowparks and half-pipe.
Black Prince

Clinic 4 - Freestyle & Air
Variations on short turns: Norwegian, Swedish, Ollie, etc.
Crab turn, body carve and 360°.
Backscratcher, Zudnick, Twist, etc.
Information on becoming a ski instructor.

Clinic 5 - Race & Cross
Go down a black run with varied parallel turns.
Competion: slalom, giant slalom, etc.
Ski Cross.
Creative jumps and turns in a half-pipe.
Information on competitions and preparation of ski equipment.

Clinic 6 - Freeride & Moguls
Creative skiing in unprepared snow.
Short turns in moguls
Advanced formation skiing.
Powder skiing
Information about avalanche and weather safety.
Black King

Picking on Prosneige, as that is who we have booked at Easter in VT - their childrens syllabus is below:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never skied or indoor only (special group)
Beginner
To become autonomous on green or blue slopes.
Be able to control the speed and the turns.

1 week of skiing, snowplought turn, you can easily ski green and blue runs.
Bronze To be able to turn with parallel skis.
First side slipping sensations.

2 or 3 weeks of skiing, you can ski with side slipping on blue and red runs.
Silver
To perfect parallel turns and side slipping.

4 or more weeks of skiing, you can ski with parallel on red and black runs.
Gold
To perfect all kinds of skiing :
small turns, moguls, and carving.
To be able to ski in all different snow conditions.

Good skiers, you can easily ski on black runs and off piste.
Diamond
To discover the ski area on and off piste.

Your child is in confidence on all the slopes.
He wants to ski in a fun atpmosphere with other teenagers.
Teen
Slalom, moguls, off pist, freestyle: a week of sensation with all security you need.

Over to the experts - I await the impending discussion with interest - which is the best most effective method please?

Edit: Of course adults will be taught a bit differently, but its easier to compare the syllabuses for the kids because you can find them easily to quote them

A snowHead

Megamum, are you sure you know what you're starting here Laughing

Let's hope there are some serious replies as they will make very interesting reading.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Megamum, what's "crawl"?

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pam w, I haven't the foggiest - another one for the glossary when we find out I think Toofy Grin

Butterfly I think to re-arrange the words 'worms, of, can' might be appropriate, but I am quite interested in the discussion which might ensue too

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I work for a swiss ski school, and I have had dealings with the French and Austrians, albeit in a more limited way.

Obviously I am biased towards the Swiss, but I have had many kids come over from the French system who 'can ski reds' or who 'can parallel turn'. The French seem very happy to certify/claim a child has a skill when they have seen it once or twice. For example, you say that your eldest is heading towards parallels when she thinks about it- alot of the French would have her down as a parallel skier. The Swiss however are more cautious (some may even say negative) and will not certify a child as doing something unless they do it the WHOLE time.

I got into a lot of trouble for labelling a child as a blue king and being proficient on blues. She was able to ski down any blue run with me, and on the easier blues was running her skis parallel between snowplough turns. This, according to my boss, was not good enough to be classed a blue king. The rationale was explained that if I said she could ski blues proficiently, the parents may not watch the child closely on those runs, and whilst it is one thing for her to turn perfectly behind me or another instructor, constantly shouting praise etc, it is entirely different to be launched down a blue unaided, especially given that gradings are given at the end of a week, meaning the child may have a full year before they ski again.

Whilst the Swiss children seem to be progressing slower, the basic skills are taught very early - skating, side slipping, one ski skiing, pole planting (another discussion I know), ensuring they always face the body down the slope etc etc. The French seem to focus more on getting the kid able to ski everything, but (IMO) not necessarily safely. I would far rather have my child stay on a blue learning techniques which are invaluable when things get sticky, than hurling down a black with no basic grounding.

It sounds like your children are rather typical in their love for snowplough - most kids love it, as it feels safer and it allows them to go down most things in a relatively controlled manner. However, noone stays snowploughing forever, and generally after 2-3 years they will edge further and further towards parallel. We Swiss feel no need to push this, as huge value is put on the enjoyment factor, especially for children.

As I said, I am massively biased - my experience working with the Swiss ski school far FAR outweighs the French and the Austrians. Swiss instructors place a lot of value on the want to TEACH, as opposed to the want to SKI in their instructors, and I will defend them forever.

*Sits back and waits the onslaught from the Frogs*

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swisssnowbunny, very interesting. Will, I am sure, lead to a whole impassioned debate.....

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Also (I just reread what I wrote), I'm not sure which ski school uses a 2 hour system in Switzerland. In our school, full day is 9.30-4pm, and half day is 9.30-12.30pm or 12.30-4pm. You can book instructors by the hour I guess, but most people don't, I think its as expensive to book 2 hours as to book a morning/afternoon.

After all it is free

pam w, I don't doubt it, but I think we can take on the French. Although my fellow instructors will probably choose to remain neutral!

swisssnowbunny, the views you express above are exactly as we had them explained to us when we discussed the Swiss method in great detail a couple of weeks ago with Swiss instructors and Swiss punters. It is interesting that you confirm our understanding of what we were told then. Another point that was made was that when you look at the world cup rankings the Swiss are often on top, thereby confirming that the method should be considered sound. My Blue Queen 'Good' last year was not allowed to progress to Blue Star, instead she did another course and was marked to Blue Queen 'excellent', Last years Blue Prince 'good' progressed to Blue King 'good', the prince was more chuffed than the Queen!! who didn't feel as though she had progressed as much, 'c'est la vie'

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Megamum, tell your Blue Queen that she IS progressing. One tiny tiny criticism I have noticed with the Swiss system is that in the early stages they fly up from the Snow Garden and often right through the Blue Prince, but then its harder to tick the boxes. She's probably a lot stronger skier, but the grading system doesn't show as bigger jumps as it does early on, so the children can get dissapointed. My blue kings/queens are all great skiers who I would take all over the mountain - last weeks kings/queens did jumps, a bit of off piste, reds and an easy black, they just haven't quite got their skills down, and as said above, the Swiss are very cautious when certifying the children. At least when we say they can do something, you know its 100% consistant!

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Megamum, One of my main instructors once taught under 2 VERY different systems...
SYSTEM A : Direct Parallel

SYSTEM B : Snowplough Progression (yes snowplough, stem christie- various versions, parallel)

His comment - that the direct parallel students "skied parallel" sooner (duh!) but that otherwise it still took about the same amount of time for students to reach the same level... because they need the same amount of time to consolidate their sliding/edging/balancing etc skills...

My comment - if you are not learning bad habits(eg rotation, tail pushing) then does it really matter which system you learn? "Behind where you should be" seems a very weird concept to me... If you are working at learning then surely you are exactly "where you should be" ie Where your abilities have taken you given the suitability of the learning for those abilities.

snow reports

Megamum, I simply think you're over-thinking this business of learning to ski way too much! Remember, skiing is just a hobby. You're supposed to enjoy it.

And, even the LEARNING to ski is also suppose to be part of the FUN, with whatever rate you're "progressing" towards that ever-receeding goal! Wink

You know it makes sense.

Megamum, I'm very much with rob@rar on this; All physical pursuits require the participant to gain and apply fitness with technique to achieve goals . . . ALL of which is dependent on the individual . . . YOU are perfectly aware of this wink

Both the Swiss, French et al "systems" are designed to teach he same skiing skills . . what may be argued is the level of the participant's understanding of those skills.

The premiss of your post here seems to be an evaluation of the ability of the individual instructor to define the progression of a particular student and if they have any autonomy within their teaching system to progress said student Confused

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Megamum, I don't understand why you're worried about what you're kids are doing. there is no real curriculum for learning to ski (as has already been mentioned). Your (or your kids') progress can not be measured against any 'ideal' of where you/they should be. Your kids are quite young I think? It's physically very difficult for short legs to stay together in parallel - much easier to be in a wider stance, so unless they've been taught in a very specific way then they will be in ploughs. Small children are not, in fact, miniature adults! Also don't forget you've spent a lot of your skiing in a very small resort with little chance to move around on long easy runs. It is, however, relatively easy for kids to make 'two toe turns' if they want to. Traverse is another matter.

swisssnowbunny, First of all the use of the term 'frogs' in your post is quite offensive - like 'paki' and the 'n' word. Not in an of itself, but in the context you used it in. I am not one, and I don't think we have any French instructors actually posting here - just those of us who have bothered to finish our exams and get fully qualified to work in the alps. Perhaps you would like to call lungostyle a 'wop'? The french ski schools (both lots) do exams at the end of the week. the children have to perform certain moves to pass. Inevitably there are some resorts and schools where they are 'softer' than others. However it's entirely possible to have a child who can lift their game for that one moment in time - and do. I've seen it happen, and I've seen others who should pass easily, fail because they messed up. I'm not saying this system is good (I don't use it myself) but it's their system and if the kid has the badge they have the badge. What parents say is entirely another matter! My criticism of the french system is that they are too keen on parallel, meaning actually parallel as opposed to making nice, balanced, mainly parallel turns.

In any case, with the advent of carving skis, there is no longer any need for a basic swing/stem christie as an intermediate turn since there's no real difference in the way a sp or parallel turn is produced. Of course if the students are taught to skid a flat ski (for whatever reason and in whatever way) rather than use these wonderful tools we have these days, then it might be necessary to teach a special sort of parallel!

A snowHead

A snowHead

Megamum, I'm afraid that generalising between the two countries just isnt my experience. I've found that (with the exception of Wengen but we've overdone that topic) that they teach mainly the same things. We all have preferences for certain instructors although the biggest difference I've seen as Rob@Rar suggests is Care v Dont Care.
swisssnowbunny,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Surely you're not comparing like with like here, SSS against Prosgeige an independent ski school. SSS against ESF perhaps...

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All points made above are quite relevant. However, the apparent disparities in the various descriptions makes it awkward when trying to select the appropriate level for a child with experience of one school in the other. Now, I hope that within both schools there is scope to shift the children if they are clearly booked at the wrong level, but in a busy ski school when one child follows the other children in a long line down the slope clearly there can't be the time for the individual attention that they might get in a more private lesson to properly assess each child. I've just booked for the French school for my pair. At the time of booking you have to select a nominal level for them. At the moment I've booked a bronze for my youngest 6 and and a silver course for my oldest 9. Now, as mentioned above neither of mine are on 100% parallels although for the length of time they have been on skis the French system would assume that they should be. I did hope that they might both have progressed to this level at class this holiday just gone - I booked the schools prior to this recent holiday and a further week at ski school for them, but they still aren't skiing parallel all the time.

Kids are very sensitive to 'levels' and the apparent age of those round them. My oldest wouldn't want to be in a class where every child is clearly younger than her (lower level often equals younger children). She also wouldn't want to be moved 'down' a group when she gets there. For the time skied in theory the skills sets accrued should be similar, yet, when you look at the desciptions that would not appear to the case. I am now wondering if I should contact the French ski school prior to arriving and request the lower group for both kids.

The difference in the two systems vs. the average knowledge of the parent punter makes if difficult to know where the kids should be booked, even if its just on a preliminary basis, if moving from one system to the other. Also, if the stakes were reversed after three weeks skiing and possibly zazzing about with parallel turns and red/black runs would a child find the Swiss levels rather too mundane to switch to? My eldest says she finds ski school boring (although she has had lesson in Switzerland), I think she may get more 'fun' out of the French lessons even in the knowledge is consolidated at a different rate.

How, aware are the various countries of the other schemes that operate and therefore the similarities differences that kids might have at a certain amount of 'time on snow'?

Does 'UK' instruction vary yet again? which system is it most similar too?

And why on earth doesn't every country agree on a single syllabus to teach the kids?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Megamum, My kids have been in a Swiss ski school quite a bit in the last two years and I'd agree that the Swiss method of teaching is more "gradual" than I've seen in other places. In fact in your list above you can add in another "layer" which is the blue, red and black stars, each of these is after the King/Queen achievment. Quite a few of our friends who have visited have commented that progression seem to be a bit slower, Overall though I think if you have a competent, enthusiastic instructer who will keep my kids safe then I'm happy the lesson. In my experience class size (not too big) and grading (getting the same level of skiers together) is the most critical element in a week of ski school.

After all it is free

Hopefully, from a different perspective. I was there, did see the set up.
The resort and instructors are excellent at looking after the kids, the end of week ski race, with full timing was a sight to see. I cannot fault them at all, in their level of care.
I know Megamum has cited the dreaded parrallel turn several time,(and it has been picked up on) but i really dont see that as the issue.
I also understand that it more important to have a good instructor.
My concern is that the regime in this Swiss resort, isn't conducive to tourist level ski-ing and progression. It's all right if you live locally or you can have 3 weeks a year and regular weekends but as a 1 or 2 week a year tourist? It seems the very element that teaches quality holds back the marginal\ tourist skier. The very fact the eldest, a 'ski nut' finds lessons boring says it all.

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My daughter has had lessons from the age of 8 (she's now 13) with:-

- Tamworth Snowdome
- Norwegian School in Geilo
- Ski Banff School Canada
- ESF in St Sorlin D'Arves and Les Deux Alpes
- Easiski
- Summit Ski School Zermatt
- Easiski next at Easter

So a pretty eclectic mix. She really hasn't had any problem moving about between them and I don't think any of the teaching has been at cross purposes. She's skiing pretty well now so it seems to have worked, children are pretty durable and learn easily and what causes us to worry is all pretty straightforward for them.

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easiski, the term 'frog' was to be taken ironically-in fact, my dearest mother herself is a frog, making me half-amphibian. Apologies for any offence that may have been taken.

Megamum, I wouldn't worry too much, as has been said, any instructor anywhere in the world will be able to spot a child out of their depth very quickly and adjust the groups accordingly.

I'd like to think that those who have suffered 'boring' lessons have simply been unfortunate and had a mediocre instructor, and sadly these occur in all the systems, rather than there being a direct fault with the systems themselves.

At the end of the day, every ski school has the same aims, and the assessment criteria are really only to be taken as a rough guide as to what groups a child should ski with next, rather than an assessment and grading of every element of skiing. I've had kids who could parallel like a dream, but give them a t-bar and they stack off it every single time. I've had kids that snowplough everywhere, but can happily land jumps and deal with powder. No 2 kids are alike, so in this way, any system will always fail.

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Megamum, I agree, although in situations where there is no liftie (oh god, do I love the lifties that help so much though) I generally move the bar for the children myself to put them on. Reason being? Time constraints. I've spent a good half hour trying to get them to get on it by themselves, with them either missing it completely, or going a little way and falling. If the kid is only there to ski for a week, I'd rather spend that time skiing than having them eat snow. Plus, it always looks particularly cruel/comical* (*Delete depending on whether its your child or not) to passers by and can hold up a lift queue for ages, leading to crying children, angry punters behind and a stressed instructor.

Maybe its laziness and the wish for an easier life that make me help, but I like to think of it as compassion for the poor little one who smashes into the snow for the 100th time on the t-bar!

However, as you said, they're on their own when it comes to getting off...and only when they don't fall at the end for a couple of days do they get that all important tick!

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Megamum, Like all things in life you pays yer money and takes your choice. FWIW my daughters have been taught by Swiss French and Italian instructors. The most notable developent of their skiing I have seen was after a week in Courmayer (a school trip) with an English ski Instructor from Interski snowHead

A snowHead

Megamum, I think you're still missing the point: When you get there you just tell the ski school that your kid can do ... whatever, on whatever runs. they will always check on the first day (Proneige are good so they will), and what might not be apparent to you will be instantly apparent to an experienced instructor. I can usually tell if someone's a good skier when they're standing still! If your kids are in the wrong class they'll be moved. You don't have to say it's down even if it is: Just say it's different!

Why should we all be the same? National systems reflect national culture and tendencies, but (with the exception of Wengen as already mentioned) we all have more or less the same idea of where to go. Any experienced instructor will not, in any case, slavishly follow the 'curriculum', they will do what their experience demands for that class at that time. You'd better not come to me though, as I don't follow any curriculum and don't have any lists of what levels you are when.

A snowHead

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IMHO too many people are thinking far too deeply about this. We're talking about kids. Kids are adaptable. As long as the instructor is okay then they will have fun and learn wherever they are and whatever the syllabus is. Surely that's what skiing is about?

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BMF_Skier, And of course we are forgetting that the most important thing is that ski lessons that are fun for kids, and they actually want to go to, are GREAT for adults wink

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Help!!

In the red corner its Swiss ski school & in the blue corner it's French ski school

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