 Poster: A snowHead
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docsquid, BASI have had a thing about this for many years. Have you tried explaining your body shape? A (black) instructor kept failing his Grade 1 for hollow back, no matter how many times he tried to explain to the trainers that it was his ethnic body shape, they insisted on the 'right' shape. Eventually he went out and bought a small cushion which he stuffed down his trousers - he passed and they never knew. (True story). I would hope that 20 odd years on they'd be a bit more enlightened, but if it's uncomfortable, a baggy jacket and a small cushion might help you too. Not Normal, has it spot on. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, Rob funny how that looks quite similar to a Moto GP racer taking a bend.
skimottaret, When I learnt Kung Fu they always advised sucking the pelvis into the core and openign the chest, I think it was about teh strong stomach and back muscles being brought into action greatly aiding stabilisation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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did some more reading up on this subject and it sounds as though that a too hollow back can block out effective up down flexing and cause a back seat position when skiing. Also interesting was at a recent boot alignment session i needed substantial heel lifts which i believe would indicate i have a naturally hollow back. Of course there are lots of issues specific to each individual and generalising is a dangerous thing to do but it does seem to tie up with my problems and physiology.
I broke my back as a youngster and it healed oddly, so i am suspicious that this has been causing me problems with my skiing. (he says searching for any excuse for bad technique  .. )
I am no expert on this and could be wrong but find body mechanics quite interesting. Smallzookeeper do you have any recommended texts or sources of info on skiing body mechanics?
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A pelvis tilted upwards, which produces a rounded lower back, allows the femur to rotate more effectively
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Alpine Logic, ls there not a danger here of over stretching the lower back muscles 
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A rounded lower back should not be thought of as a " a position ". A skier needs to be able to move from foot to foot quickly, absorbe shock, rotate and incline the legs, and maintain stability. A comfortable mobile state needs to be maintained all the while the skier is moving. A comfortable relaxed lower back ( ie pelvis tipped upwards seen as a rounded lower back ) allows this to happen. What ski instructor should encourage and show is a comfortable, useful shape that is constantly changing as it absorbes the forces inflicted upon it by the turning skis and the resistance this creates.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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clare mcbride, One of the problems is often that as some instructors try to get students to 'assume the position' the student tries too hard and ends up stiff and rigid and looking like a little robot. As a rider, you may have some issues with the lower back being a little too straight, but one can get over it.
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easiski, you're spot on, when we've grasped the next "new bit" we do it with all our might to the exclusion of everything else, aagh, need to drink more, turn up the music. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I haven't read all this thread, but this shape is taught as the landing shape in gymnastics - it is a more stable shape and certainly engages the core muscles and glutes, and I would say it probably protects the back to some extent. I have never been told to tilt my pelvis whilst skiing, but it is something that I do try to do anyway. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, re: reading material on biomechanics. The best book I have come across is 'skiing an art a technique' by a French skiing professor called Georges Joubert. This book is old now (70's I think), but the mechanics of the body don't change, however of course what we ski on has changed a lot.
Joubert was coach to Jean Vuarnet and developed the 'egg' or tuck position with him in the early 60's. The books translation from french is not brilliant, but its good enough (there may be a better translated version now as my copy is quite old now). However I'm not even sure if its still in print as I had to buy my copy from Canada a long time ago, it just wasn't available in the UK. BTW Joubert used to have major arguments with ENSA as they didn't like his ideas, so his ideas, at that time and possibly now were not included in their national teaching system.
During his career Joubert took literally thousands of stop action pictures of racers and high level skiers to prove his ideas, there are a load in the book. The 'Skiers Edge' by Warren Witherall is good too - and newer! mid 90's I think and talks also a lot about skier alignment issues.
Could be that there is a newer more up to date text out there that covers these areas must admit I haven't looked.
Regarding 'pelvic tilt' I have never taught it as I felt it was making people assume an unnatural position as the spine is naturally curved in different places when we are relaxed so forcing it into another position would cause unneccesary tension as well as being 'unnatural'. After all when we ski we should use our bodies in the best way we can related to our natural build. Doing otherwise takes us back to the old days of learning techniques rather than skills e.g feet locked together, turning our chests to face the valley etc. We should do what is biomechanically sound not assume a global 'position'.
However poor pelvic position is usually caused by poor postural elements at the other skiing joints, so normally its a case of improving those areas which then helps out the pelvic area. I think the pelvic tilt issue has probably arisen from someone sometime seeing a position they didn't like (pelvis downwardly tilted) and not seeing the root cause of the problem they tried to adjust what they saw at that point of the body, rather than in the area that was causing the issue. The idea then gets picked up by others who accept it for what it is without questioning it and start spreading 'the gospel'. Sliding the leading tip forward at the beginning of the turn is another example of this it probably started as an excercise to correct a over hip rotation issue and then started getting taught as 'the way to ski'. I've seen this a lot in ski teaching.
Something I got told once (a BASI trainer I think) was that downward pelvic tilt blocked freer rotational movements of the legs. I'm sure Joubert has an angle on this, but can't remember exactly what it is
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| IncogSkiSno wrote: |
| I haven't read all this thread, but this shape is taught as the landing shape in gymnastics - it is a more stable shape and certainly engages the core muscles and glutes, and I would say it probably protects the back to some extent. I have never been told to tilt my pelvis whilst skiing, but it is something that I do try to do anyway. |
Me too - just a little, not to exaggerate the tilt - simply because it helps me to engage those muscles. Shouldn't be surprised if most skiers who have done some Pilates (or similar) would say the same.
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You know it makes sense.
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skir67, thats funny the "reading up" I had done about bio mechanics last month was the Joubert book you mention. I found a second had copy on amazon when looking for texts on body mechanics and skiing. I read it on a flight and thought it was probably the best book on skiing i had seen and was assuming that there would be further texts on skiing biomechanics over the last 30 odd years. I havent found anything other than medical texts which are too expensive and probably not what i am after.
I will have a look for 'Skiers Edge' by Warren Witherall, thanks for the tip.
and you are right Joubert said a downward tilt blocks rotational movement.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think that "skiers edge" is by Ron Le Master (v good book, too) and the Witherall one is called "Athletic skier".
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, Indeed it is - and agreed - brilliant book.
skimottaret, you need a copy of Skiers edge. It does seem to get name-checked here fairly frequently.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stoatsbrother, i have the skiers edge, it is a good book and quite technical if you are after that sort of thing and pam w, just ordered the athletic skier on amazon thanks for clearing it up.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, stoatsbrother, Hi, yes your right about the book name sorry for the misinformation, memorys going in my old age! 
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skimottaret, witheralls' original text from the early 70's "how the racers ski" was the basis for the athletic skier, it was one of the first if not the only text written about skier balance and alignment and whilst come of the information given is somewhat out dated much of it is still used.... there is a destinct lack of good text on skiing biomaechanics
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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if you can find anything on the david McPhail bird cage experiments it makes good reading, i don't have a link handy but i will try and find it for you
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CEM, thanks for having a look but i dont appear to have access... no probs Will have a read of the athletic skier. I am just looking for some basic info at this point...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CEM, oh god no, those experiments only re-enforce the role of the ankle in skiing 
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veeeight, not sure i get the joke here but the only david mchPhail i have found writes childrens stories... which wouldnt be far off given the current vandalism of a few threads.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, no, no joke. David MacPhail and Steve Podborski (ex WC Crazy Canuck) did these experiments in the 90's on Blackcomb mountain, I teach alongside many of those that were involved in the experiments, and they have shown me over the years the many graphs and traces of Steve's skiing, the role of the foot and ankle, his amazing ability to produce repeatable razor sharp ski tracks that didn't converge nor diverge (lets not go there), etc. However, despite this, today, many people still remain uneducated and still believe that the key to good skiing is to clamp you foot as tight as you can inside a ski boot and eliminate all movement of the foot.
http://www.canoe.ca/SkiCanadaNov00/macmillan.html
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 15-09-08 19:56; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, Yes Jouberts book is great even if it is old, I think I'm going to dig it out for a good read again, have you read the super-techie notes at the back? It certainly isn't a 'beach book'.
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You know it makes sense.
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skir67, yeah i got stuck at Stansted for 4 hours so it was all i had and read most of the techy bits. The biomechanics stuff was real interesting with a lot of lightbulb moments but definately not a beach read...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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veeeight, i worked with Sophie a few year back...when she used to have an open mind 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, not as in gareth roberts
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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somehow, i really doubt it
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Greetings all;
My thoughts on back posture while skiing tend resonate around the practicalities and sensibilities of shock absorption (which involves the ability to manage and apply pressure, sudden or otherwise, to/from the ski.)
Which posture would be best employed, to avoid injury or strain, if you were to jump off a wall and land neatly, in balance, on your feet?
At least one version of posture I have read about on this thread, I feel, potentially facilitates unwanted injury to one or more parts of the jumpers back - both muscular and skeletal.
Incidentally, the jump from the wall doesn't have to be high to cause a muscular/skeletal problem if posture on landing is all wrong.
One last thing. I don't think of posture as being fixed. If it were, we'd certainly tip over once the terrain undulated. Posture should be thought of as something that is dynamic. When skiing or even in other sports, it is always being adapted to varying degrees, consciously or subconsciously, depending on our body shape, skiing style, and ability - no matter which type of posture we claim to start out with.
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FAQ
Will write your piece in my Ski Diary, take to next practise, next holiday. 
' 