 Poster: A snowHead
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What position should the skiers pelvis be in?
Instructors tend to advocate tilting the pelvis upwards by sucking in the core while having a fairly straight lower back. Some people ski with their pelvis tilted downwards, their backs "hollow" and bums sticking out. most instructors try to get rid of that as they are "in the back seat" or have a "lavatorial" posture. You hear people being told to clench their bums cheeks, or shag not s**t in an effort to change this posture.
I am not so sure this is "bad" as it can be a strong body position to counter high forces through the body. In a goal keeper stance i feel much stronger with a slightly hollow back and if i purposely tilt my pelvis upwards it feels weaker.
discuss...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, not an expert, but I would have thought a neutral pelvis would be best.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Helen Beaumont, neutral or centre position is generally the best place for any joint but i am still curious...
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I've never understood this, and haven't heard it for a long time. When I see skiers in the toilet position (and when I do this myself) it's because their knees and hips are bent but their ankles are at 90 degrees - nothing much to do with what angle the pelvis is held at. Don't think I've ever tried to move my pelvis from whatever angle it normally, or naturally, sits at.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The pelvis tilt is a very good trigger, IMV. I don't see how you can get the right angle of the back without it. And it holds in check the back seat as well, It will be on my list to rediscover... or tune, this year.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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when I did my race training at the PSB, the coach was BIG on this. I stick my bum out and have a hollow back, but I don't think I am generally in the back seat. However, the coach said the hollow back was quite an issue for racers - her daughter was a pretty serious racer and had big problems ironing out that particular flaw. i think the problem with that position was that it blocks freedom of movement and also it puts more stress on the lower back
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Arno,
I do think the upward tilt tidies up the overall stance on skis... and just makes things a little more compact as well.
I am seeing in my photos lately...where the leg angle has stayed the same...goodish...but the tilt has gone... and the position is more crouched.
It just doesn't seem such a ready position anymore...and I dislike the look of it as well, hence my desire to get it back in there.... along with better angulation etc etc.
I think things like this...losing it...creep in from time to time..and you have to put some time back in to rediscover it.
If I know I am on camera, I'll do it...but in some others instances, it has just retreated somewhat... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Correct Balancing of your skis, bindings and boots mike make it easier to find the right place to 'Tilt the Pelvis'
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Arno, i got told the same thing a lot last season, to "suck in my belly button" or to think about being punched in the stomache in order to "activate the core muscles" and get the hip joint forward. I dutifully worked on this but it doesnt feel right.
Two things have got me thinking.
1. might not be hugely relevent, but during weight lifting training whilst doing back squats , which apparently is a good exercise that mimics a stacked skiing position, we got shouted at to keep the back hollow and chest forward to ensure a strong stacked body position. on dry land if i go into a goal keeper stance and straighten my lower back it feels weaker compared to a holllow back.
2. when i asked a race coach about how i was looking in terms of sucking in my core/getting hips forward she went mental saying it really wound her up this obsession about getting rid of hollow backs. She thought a hollow back was a good thing and provided a strong dynamic position. After my comment she got the group to ski at each extreme, with pelvis tilted up, core sucked in and hips forward in the BASI suggested manor and it felt awful. When we skied the opposite with hips back, hollow back and pelvis down it felt much stronger and dynamic to me. Her spin was that the tall hip forward BASI stance is fine for cruising around all day long but rubbish for strong dynamic skiing. for sure the optimal is somewhere in the middle but i'm still not sure which side of neutral...
rob@rar, i agree with you that the toilet position is usually down to straight ankles and sitting down at the knees. but assuming the ankles are well flexed do you round your back off or try to keep it straight?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Correct Balancing of your skis, bindings and boots mike make it easier to find the right place to 'Tilt the Pelvis' |
if you have your equipment set up correctly what would you say is the "correct" pelvis position? You alluded to balancing being quite important in another thread, does it make that big a difference in your view?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Any teachers out there of the Alexander Technique ? this pelvic tilt discssion would be something l'm sure they'd be able to help with.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rob@rar, i agree with you that the toilet position is usually down to straight ankles and sitting down at the knees. but assuming the ankles are well flexed do you round your back off or try to keep it straight? |
To be perfectly honest I don't give it a second thought. The last time an instructor talked to me about the angle of my pelvis was probably 10 years ago; trying to change the angle felt so weird that I didn't work on it at all. I've heard Phil Smith talk rather disparagingly of the occasional obsession with the angle of the pelvis. On the other hand I've worked hard at trying to improve my stacked position for GS, a point which has been made by two or three different coaches. I'm not certain if these two things are linked or not.
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, Yep, massive.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, cool, thats good to know that it is can be such a big deal.. I am off to see CEM on Saturday to do the boot alignment thing and to be honest i thought it would just be of very minor help and more of a belt and braces type thinkg to do.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, it was Emma that got all excited when i was asking about pelvis position. perhaps it is something they dont like about the way BASI deals with it. BUt on my grade 3 course quite a few were getting pulled up on hip and pelvis position...
what would you say an ideal "stacked" hip should be... hollowish back or canadian crouch 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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When I did my Level 1 course a few weeks ago, I was told I must get my lower back rounded (my ankles were fine - well flexed and with my boots undone!). The apparent curvature of my spine was made to look worse than it is by my tight-waisted ski jacket that emphasised it but I had to adopt an extreme backward tilt of the pelvis to get rid of all curvature in my lower back.
Now as a fitness instructor I know a lot about, and teach a lot of neutral spine position, which is the strongest position for the spine, and follows the natural curvature i.e. with the lower back slightly hollow (although a lot of people have too much hollowing in their back due to weak abs and tight hip flexors).
I found that in order to get my pelvis in the desired position and my lower back suitably rounded, it felt very uncomfortable, and it was very hard to ski in this position, particuarly doing quite dynamic carved turns - it was OK for ploughs, basic parallel and short parallel turns. It is not down to lack of core strength - I can do a plank for 3 minutes without difficulty, and also am one of only 5 people ever to complete the core challenge in the personal trainer diploma for my training organisation (out of many hundreds). I teach core stability to people at the gym, so I have to have good stability myself.
However it is something I will have to get used to and work on in order to pass Level 2 - that and get a new baggy jacket
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I find I ski much better with a rounded back than a hollow back. That said, skiing with a rounded back doesn't last long for me as it does put a much greater strain on the back.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 9-06-08 10:49; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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i will ask the question again
what about safe movements for the back??????
front to back and rotational = safe
side to side =unsafe
discuss
seeing as no one can be bothered to on the other body mechanics thread, or is it that you dont understand the question
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CEM, not sure I understand the question, ut is it related to the relative merits of inclination v. angulation?
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rob@rar, there has been lots of talk about differnet body positions and ways of making a ski work, the question is really about what are and are not safe movements to teach with regard to body position
if you look at the other thread i asked the same, [got ignored and off on a tangent , but thats this place all over right now] the point was about 2 instructors who were being sued for teaching what was considered an unsafe movement by the client [an orthopaedic surgeon with a good lawyer]
the PSIA wouldn't support the instructor as they claimed he was not taught to teach this movement by them..........
so what is safe and what is unsafe?
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| CEM wrote: |
| so what is safe and what is unsafe? |
I've never had that question raised with me. Effective v. ineffective, but is that the same question?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CEM, an interesting point, should skiing be taught in a manner that is safe on the back/spine from a posture point of view, irrespective of it maybe not achieving the best skiing results? I board in a crouched stance becasue I have a dodgy back and ideally I should have a better posture, but should a correct medical posture be taught in preference to any thing else?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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the spine is designed to rotate and flex forwards and backwards, sideways motion is very limited, then when you introduce the forces involved with skiing
fitness is for sure a prerequiset for going skiing ...... i think the argument rests on the exercise which was taught ..something instructors need to be aware of as often they like any other individual take what they are shown nand interprit it in their own way, it happens all over the place you are shown a way of doing something and it then gets modified to make the job easier or better....but what happens when this modification it makes it unsafe how do you know until it all goes wrong.......
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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CEM, argument wrong way round: define 'safe' first.
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comprex, a motion in a direction in which natural motion is available without placing undue stess on the body, the spine was deined to flex front to back and rotate
those motions are deemed as "safe" ...obviously excessive motion in any direction is unsafe but the muscularture of the spine/pelvis is deigned to cope with rotation/flexion [front to back] but not with lateral flexion
i should point out that i was not placing this as an argument [merely stating the issues as i have heard about them] more than anythign i am interested in the thoughts of others to the orgininal statement
what are safe and unsafe motions for the spine/pelvis region?
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You know it makes sense.
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CEM, difficult to comment as i am no expert but you do see more and more racers adopting a "stronger" inclined body position quickly tilting from side to side and only using angulation as very much a last ditch effort to get higher edge angles in the bottom of the turn. if you have a load of hip (or knee) angulation you are definately in a weaker position IMO.
I have been warned a couple times when skiing hard that i was getting too low and putting too much stress on the knees but never the back...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| docsquid wrote: |
...I had to adopt an extreme backward tilt of the pelvis to get rid of all curvature in my lower back...
.. teach a lot of neutral spine position, which is the strongest position for the spine, and follows the natural curvature i.e. with the lower back slightly hollow
I found that in order to get my pelvis in the desired position and my lower back suitably rounded, it felt very uncomfortable, and it was very hard to ski in this position, particuarly doing quite dynamic carved turns - it was OK for ploughs, basic parallel and short parallel turns. It is not down to lack of core strength - I can do a plank for 3 minutes without difficulty, and also am one of only 5 people ever to complete the core challenge in the personal trainer diploma for my training organisation (out of many hundreds). I teach core stability to people at the gym, so I have to have good stability myself.
However it is something I will have to get used to and work on in order to pass Level 2 - that and get a new baggy jacket |
very interesting to hear from an expert that a slightly hollow back is the strongest position, this was my suspicion. BASI do tend to want to eliminate hollowness as you experience on your L1 shows... I too feel very uncomfortable with a straight lower back and it is good to hear someone else feels the same!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| CEM, difficult to comment as i am no expert but you do see more and more racers adopting a "stronger" inclined body position quickly tilting from side to side and only using angulation as very much a last ditch effort to get higher edge angles in the bottom of the turn. |
Is inclination in the bottom of the turn always a last ditch effort? I thought it was standard practice (in GS) to start the turn with inclination, then angulate as you get into the bottom of every turn. Isn't there a necessity to angulate as you pass the gate otherwise you're going to have to take a wider line with your skis?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, what i was trying to get at was that inclination is a "stronger" position than angulation. your right that some angulation to get around the gate is in order
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| your right that some angulation to get around the gate is in order |
And here's Michael Von Grunigen to illustrate:
From youcanski.com
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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but that illustration shows two angles from different viewpoints ??? if the 3rd dimension was shown in the photo it would be clearer that the projection of the upper body is forwards rather than a lateral shift
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| CEM wrote: |
| but that illustration shows two angles from different viewpoints ??? if the 3rd dimension was shown in the photo it would be clearer that the projection of the upper body is forwards rather than a lateral shift |
That might be the case to some extent, but to me there looks like there is a big angulation in there as well. Which brings us to your point about safe movements. If the spine can more fore/aft and rotate, is angulation a safe movement?
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| Quote: |
That might be the case to some extent, but to me there looks like there is a big angulation in there as well. Which brings us to your point about safe movements. If the spine can more fore/aft and rotate, is angulation a safe movement?
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yes because it is not a pure sideways lean,it is made up of elements of rotation and flexion/extention, which creat a motiuon in the 3rd plane but this can only happen effectively when the joints are open and there is ROM available
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CEM, thanks, that's good to know. I suffer with a bad back enough as it is!
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| skimottaret wrote: |
What position should the skiers pelvis be in?
Instructors tend to advocate tilting the pelvis upwards by sucking in the core while having a fairly straight lower back. Some people ski with their pelvis tilted downwards, their backs "hollow" and bums sticking out. most instructors try to get rid of that as they are "in the back seat" or have a "lavatorial" posture. You hear people being told to clench their bums cheeks, or shag not s**t in an effort to change this posture.
I am not so sure this is "bad" as it can be a strong body position to counter high forces through the body. In a goal keeper stance i feel much stronger with a slightly hollow back and if i purposely tilt my pelvis upwards it feels weaker.
discuss... |
Instructors who have never studied in detail the structure of the body will always have a different answer.
So the answer is.....there is no fixed angle and everyone is different.
By trying to keep the pelvis in a fixed position, people are missing the point about skiing.
It's a constantly moving frame adjusting to changes of terrain whilst on the move.
I wil also depend on what the fore and aft angles are in the boots and bindings. Again everyone will be different.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not Normal, welcome to snowHeads! Good to have you contribute 
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Not Normal, welcome to the madhouse 
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