 Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, you look lovely when you are cross. XXX 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kitty, An interesting point which I will check out. Last, week in Italy I did spot the notices indicating that for under 14s it was compulsory to wear a helmet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| bloxy wrote: |
| rungsp wrote: |
Look folks....I am going to widen my advice, and ask (even INSIST) that this be kept as a stand-alone sticky, and become The Definative Helmet Thread, beginning, middle, end. There really is nothing else to add.
A lot of  think you should wear one whenever skiing because it is safer. |
Even though the evidence does not support this
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Do you actually hgave any sort of a cite for that ludicrous position?
I find it almost impossible to believe that could conceivably be true.
I read your posts in the other thread,. and they most certainly do NOT support your conclusion here.
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A lot of think it won't happen to them
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Which is supported by the evidence the chance of a head injury is very low.
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Rubbish.
You should learn a little about statistics.
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Take a look at the other recent thread on "helmets compulsory?" where I have provided sources of real evidence of why a helmet won't save from a serious injury (but may save you a bump or a headache). |
No you haven't.
You have provided evidence that in cases where the impact is severe enough, the helmet will not make any difefrence.
Which is obviously true.
But which does NOT in any way shape or form "prove" that a helmet will never turn what would otherwise be a serious injury (or even death) into a much lesser injury.
And if it does so sometimes, then it makes the wearer safer, unless it also increases the severity of injury just as often.
BTW, I have never yet worn a helmet, although I am seriously thinking of getting one next time I go. I have not decided for sure yet.
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bloxy
bloxy
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Quote: |
A lot of think it won't happen to them
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Which is supported by the evidence the chance of a head injury is very low.
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Rubbish.
You should learn a little about statistics.
[/quote]
Taken from ski-ingury.com/helmts.htm
"Again, things have to be kept in perspective. Head injuries account for at most 10-20% of all injuries from snow sports - although some studies have shown higher rates in children (up to 43% in one Canadian study though I have not seen that reported anywhere else). But even taking this 43% rate coupled with the highest injury rate gives a rate for head injury of 2.4 per 1000 skier days - really very low. a more average risk would be about 0.3-0.5 per 1000 skier days. Most of these injuries are minor (usually concussion) and as I have already mentioned the bad ones are usually the result of skiing or boarding out of control."
As I said there is a very low risk oh head injury and even lower risk of death from a head injury.
I was perhaps a little too dogmatic in saying helmets don't make skiing safer they do to a limited extet, they will protect you from minor injury, the evidence is that they won't protect you from major injury or death, they simply are not yet at that stanadard.
If an individual is risk averse and having weighed the evidence chooses to wear a helmet that is fine. I just can't support this helmets save lives everyone must wear one, you are crazy not to stance. The evidence does not back it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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bloxy, From the source you have selectively quoted:
"In conclusion...
So, to conclude, helmets are a good idea and will protect you against many of the common injuries that the head is susceptible too. They are especially important for children, who are at highest risk of snow sport injury. In addition, there is no evidence to date that helmets predispose the wearer to a higher risk of neck injury or cause injury to others."
and:
"For those who required ambulance transport, wearing a helmet reduced the risk of head injury by 56%."
Shows you can "prove" anything by selective quotes from a report that is actually just a compilation of selective quotes from other reports.
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bloxy
bloxy
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As I said
"they (helmets) will protect you from minor injury, the evidence is that they won't protect you from major injury or death, they simply are not yet at that standard.
If an individual is risk averse and having weighed the evidence chooses to wear a helmet that is fine. I just can't support this helmets save lives everyone must wear one, you are crazy not to stance. The evidence does not back it."
Also the evidence for kids is somewhat different, I am really referring to adults.
Read the published evidence (there is lots more in refereed journals like BJSM) then make a rational decision. You have a freedom to choose and long may it remain. But don't be swayed by dogma and hype.
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| bloxy wrote: |
| But don't be swayed by dogma and hype. |
bloxy, you appear to be the one spouting the most "dogma and hype". I hope no one is swayed by yours.
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| bloxy wrote: |
| they (helmets) will protect you from minor injury, the evidence is that they won't protect you from major injury or death, they simply are not yet at that standard. |
(my emphasis)
Won't or might not or not guaranteed to? I readily accept that there are no such guarantees that wearing a helmet makes you invincible, but I find it hard to accept that there is no benefit other than from minor dints and cuts.
I suppose it also depends on what you deem to be a minor injury? Several years ago I had a bad crash on Day 1 which included banging my head on hardpack snow. The result was a huge lump on my head and a minor concussion which stopped me skiing for a couple of days, and left me pretty shaky for the rest of the week. This, unfortunately, was a week long ski course which I had been planning for months which was more or less a wash out because of that minor concussion. It also meant that 50% of all my skiing that year was significantly hampered. Now maybe that was a minor injury in medical terms, but in personal terms it was a small disaster for me. A helmet, I believe, would have mitigated that incident significantly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| bloxy, you appear to be the one spouting the most "dogma and hype". I hope no one is swayed by yours. |
He's sourced his comments from a reputable web site quoting scientific research. So hardly dogma.
I can't see that he has a commercial interest in not selling helmets. So hardly hype.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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bloxy, That's just your own personal conclusion. I wouldn't go as far as stating it as being entirely factual. Some people come to different conclusions, again perhaps not with entirely factual data. There is evidence to support whatever conclusion you wish to make. I made my decision to wear a helmet based on my own experiences and common sense. Protection from "minor injury" is enough of a reason for me, especially given that I haven't thought of any downside to wearing my current helmet. If I really thought it was compromising my skiing experience in any way I certainly wouldn't wear it. Anyway, it's a free choice and should remain that way. Your argument hasn't compelled me to give up wearing a helmet and you'll probably never wear one unless you bang your head at some point 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, that the source may be reputable is good. The problem for me is that the conclusions the site draws and the conclusions bloxy makes do not seem to tally. The site says that helmets provide some protection and may be a good idea. Bloxy has posted to say there is no point in wearing one, implying that the site backs up those conclusions.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| bloxy, you appear to be the one spouting the most "dogma and hype". I hope no one is swayed by yours. |
He's sourced his comments from a reputable web site quoting scientific research. So hardly dogma.
I can't see that he has a commercial interest in not selling helmets. So hardly hype. |
Quoting it very selectively to support his view that helmets are not worth wearing (unless you're a child?)
I don't see why people who choose not to wear a helmet are so interested in the scientific research regarding helmets? If you don't wear one, what does it matter? Or are you just trying to justify your decision as being somehow correct? Most of these threads are simply started by people who would like to share a nasty personal experience. The fact that there are loads of them is probably a significant statistic in its own right!
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You know it makes sense.
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uktrailmonster, he's made more effort to support his position by verifiable facts that anyone else, as far as I can see. I don't see why you make the assumption that a person is interested in scientific research to buttress a prejudice rather than to inform a personal choice. I think that says more about your decision making than his.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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uktrailmonster, actually, most seem to be talking about someone else's personal experience - not always even head related, and if it is, with no evidence that wearing a helmet would have reduced the injury. As it happens, I have decided to wear a helmet, at least at times, now that I have found one that fits me when I am wearing goggles. But I fail to understand the zeal with which some sHs feel they should persuade others to wear helmets.
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| Bloxy has posted to say there is no point in wearing one, implying that the site backs up those conclusions. |
Fox what I said is they are of limited benefit and that having assessed the risk/benefit based on published evidence I would not buy or wear one. I also said that those who are more risk averse and asses the risk/benefit the other way are perfectly free to wear one.
What I am more concerned about is those with a vested interest i.e. the manufacturers who promote helmets as a safety device yet abandon the most stringent standards because they can't produce a product that they deem profitable or saleable by doing so, so much for safety.
Make your own assessment and decision but do not be swayed by hype or dogma (the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed or doubted. ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, actually, most seem to be talking about someone else's personal experience - not always even head related, |
Not me, my experience was most certainly head related. I've also got similar stories when happily I was wearing a helmet (eg dryslope skiing at Aldershot, high-sided and landed on my back with head slamming into the dendix: result was whiplash and bruising, but I think would have been much worse. Another example was skiinggates in Tignes with a high speed fall which slammed me backwards and head first through the gate). I think there's no shortage of personal stories on snowHeads when a helmet was a significant benefit, or would have been a benefit if worn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, interesting, and thanks. In well over 50 weeks of skiing (not as much as you, I guess) I can recall giving my head a hard knock about 3 times - all on piste. No injury - though I admit to seeing stars a couple of times (and so maybe should have had a medical check?). Were you knocks racing related?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Were you knocks racing related? |
Some were, but I think a better way to describe them would be "skiing-fast related". The gates weren't the cause of the falls, but obstacles that got in the way. They could equally have been trees, rocks, other slope users, pylons, piste markers, signs, etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, so there is something inme being slow and ponderous then.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Knackered? Yes. Bored? No. 
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achilles,
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bloxy wrote: |
Taken from ski-ingury.com/helmts.htm
"Again, things have to be kept in perspective. Head injuries account for at most 10-20% of all injuries from snow sports - although some studies have shown higher rates in children (up to 43% in one Canadian study though I have not seen that reported anywhere else). But even taking this 43% rate coupled with the highest injury rate gives a rate for head injury of 2.4 per 1000 skier days - really very low. a more average risk would be about 0.3-0.5 per 1000 skier days. Most of these injuries are minor (usually concussion) and as I have already mentioned the bad ones are usually the result of skiing or boarding out of control."
As I said there is a very low risk oh head injury and even lower risk of death from a head injury.
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This I have no dispute with.
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I was perhaps a little too dogmatic in saying helmets don't make skiing safer they do to a limited extet, they will protect you from minor injury, the evidence is that they won't protect you from major injury or death, they simply are not yet at that stanadard.
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This, I certainly do NOT agree with, and the site you quote from does not suport that view.
They most certainly will not provide 100% protection or anywhere near it.
But I am quite certain that there will be some cases wherea helmet will make the difference between a serious injury and a minor one.
In saying flat out that they won't protect you from such injuries, you are still being far too dogmatic, because they will protect you from some such injuries..
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If an individual is risk averse and having weighed the evidence chooses to wear a helmet that is fine. I just can't support this helmets save lives everyone must wear one, you are crazy not to stance. The evidence does not back it. |
That again, I have no dispute with.
It is entirely up to each individual (adult) to decide for themselves what level of risk they are willing to accept, and how much cost/discomfor/inconvenience they are willing to put up with to reduce that level of risk.
Children are another matter, as most of them are not experienced/mature enough to be able to responsibly make that decision for themselves.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| ..........Children are another matter, as most of them are not experienced/mature enough to be able to responsibly make that decision for themselves. |
Perhaps more to the point, as I understand it: their heads are more vulnerable than adults.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jbob wrote: |
| Make reading helmet threads compulsory now. |
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bloxy
bloxy
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| achilles wrote: |
Perhaps more to the point, as I understand it: their heads are more vulnerable than adults. |
Yes the cranial anatomy of a child is different from an adult and is more susceptible to injury, children are less likely to suffer high speed impact but are statistically more at risk of falls and injury.
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bloxy
bloxy
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| Quote: |
This, I certainly do NOT agree with, and the site you quote from does not support that view.
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From www.ski-injury.com/helmts.htm
"So, whilst helmets may help reduce the incidence of more minor head injuries and lacerations (especially the ones we see in Scotland) they are less able to protect the foolhardy skier who pushes his or her limits and who (inadvertently) ends up wrapping themselves around a tree. To give a stark example, biomechanics have demonstrated that in order to protect the head against a direct impact blow at 30 mph, with currently available materials, a helmet would need to be at least 18cm thick, 50cm wide and weigh 5kg+. Radar data collected from ski areas suggests most intermediate skiers regularly travel at between 24-38 mph."
I've had enough of this subject now so a final word.
To all who think it is crazy/stupid/dangerous/shouldn't be allowed, to ski without a helmet do your own web searches, read the journals, read the articles and make your own decisions but don't try and force your decision onto others. (and I won't try and make wearing a helmet illegal )
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You know it makes sense.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, he's made more effort to support his position by verifiable facts that anyone else, as far as I can see. I don't see why you make the assumption that a person is interested in scientific research to buttress a prejudice rather than to inform a personal choice. I think that says more about your decision making than his. |
He's made more of an effort to justify his own decision not to wear a helmet. Was he that worried about it?
I've explained my own decision making quite clearly. If you think it's incorrect I don't really care. If my decision is wrong I at least get to wear something warm on my head and I've wasted £60 (minus the cost of a hat that I now don't need). If he's wrong he might just get a painful reminder one day. But I'm certainly not in the "helmets should be compulsory" camp. The scientific research on this subject looks pretty pants to me, which is a shame in itself. I also agree that all helmets are not up to the same standard and there is inevitably going to be a trade-off between protection and comfort.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bloxy,
Isn't that a bit like saying my ski goves don't provide enough warm at minus 20 deg so I don't wear them at all?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| I've explained my own decision making quite clearly. If you think it's incorrect I don't really care. |
I have no view on your decision, other than it's yours to make.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| bloxy wrote: |
| A... the evidence is that they won't protect you from major injury or death.. |
and
| bloxy wrote: |
| whilst helmets may help reduce the incidence of more minor head injuries and lacerations (especially the ones we see in Scotland) they are less able to protect the foolhardy skier who pushes his or her limits and who (inadvertently) ends up wrapping themselves around a tree. |
I' say there is a world of difference between "won't protect you from major injury" and "less able to protect...". One statement is an absolute (and wrong in my opinion), while the other statement seems to be a sensible warning that helmets are not a guaranteed invincibility against any accident. I don't see how the same person can use both those statements to support a single argument.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, actually, most seem to be talking about someone else's personal experience - not always even head related, and if it is, with no evidence that wearing a helmet would have reduced the injury. As it happens, I have decided to wear a helmet, at least at times, now that I have found one that fits me when I am wearing goggles. But I fail to understand the zeal with which some sHs feel they should persuade others to wear helmets. |
By personal experience, I meant personal to them eg. a friend, relative etc. A first hand account of some sort. But for me, I choose to wear a helmet based entirely on my own personal experiences. Concussion is not very nice, even if it might be considered a "minor" injury. I only argue with non helmet wearers whenever they tell me I don't need to wear one. In these threads it's nearly always the anti-helmet nerds who get the most upset. Claiming that they're being pressured into wearing one for their own safety blah blah. They also tend to over use the phrase "risk aversion" like they're terrified of being considered a bit soft or something.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 12-02-08 13:09; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Its a matter of personal choice if there is no legislation in force on the piste that you ski.
All the statistics and other peoples personal beliefs are there to influence your personal choice if you so wish.
The 14 year old on the other hand is the responsibility of their parent or guardian. As a parent - i dont wear a helmet which is my choice - but i would be negligent if i was not considering my childrens best interest and so i make them wear a helmet and have done so from the start. A helmet to them is just another piece of skiing equipment that you need like the skis and poles.
To put it bluntly - if you let your kids have their own choice and then they had an accident resulting in injury which may have been avoided by using a helmet - how irresponsible/stupid would you look and could you live with that ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bloxy wrote: |
To all who think it is crazy/stupid/dangerous/shouldn't be allowed, to ski without a helmet do your own web searches, read the journals, read the articles and make your own decisions but don't try and force your decision onto others. (and I won't try and make wearing a helmet illegal ) |
I think that's an extremely small group of people. Most people who do choose to wear helmets probably think you're a bit daft not to bother, but not a crazy fool! I've skied the vast majority of my life without a helmet, but I still prefer to wear one now. What's the downside? I agree we should all make up our own minds and live with it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ropetow wrote: |
Its a matter of personal choice if there is no legislation in force on the piste that you ski.
All the statistics and other peoples personal beliefs are there to influence your personal choice if you so wish.
The 14 year old on the other hand is the responsibility of their parent or guardian. As a parent - i dont wear a helmet which is my choice - but i would be negligent if i was not considering my childrens best interest and so i make them wear a helmet and have done so from the start. A helmet to them is just another piece of skiing equipment that you need like the skis and poles.
To put it bluntly - if you let your kids have their own choice and then they had an accident resulting in injury which may have been avoided by using a helmet - how irresponsible/stupid would you look and could you live with that ? |
I really struggle to understand this kind of double logic? It's like saying that helmets are a good idea, but I really can't be arsed to wear one myself.
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| bloxy wrote: |
| Quote: |
This, I certainly do NOT agree with, and the site you quote from does not support that view.
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From www.ski-injury.com/helmts.htm
"So, whilst helmets may help reduce the incidence of more minor head injuries and lacerations (especially the ones we see in Scotland) they are less able to protect the foolhardy skier who pushes his or her limits and who (inadvertently) ends up wrapping themselves around a tree.
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Exactly.
"Less able". Not "Won't".
Hugely different.
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I've had enough of this subject now so a final word.
To all who think it is crazy/stupid/dangerous/shouldn't be allowed, to ski without a helmet do your own web searches, read the journals, read the articles and make your own decisions but don't try and force your decision onto others. (and I won't try and make wearing a helmet illegal ) |
I have always thought ity should be the decision of the individual. And nobody should try to force their decision on anybody else who is mature enough to decide for themselves.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
) and am not going to stop now! And you know why, its not that I am worried about myself so much as worried about the reckless loose cannons who have never learned 
) and to express their opinion.
