 Poster: A snowHead
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| veeeight wrote: |
Stop.
Skiers who believe that "There is no best way to ski" are skiers who are in denial about improving their skiing. |
Absolute rat.
And if you think I'm in denial about improving my skiing then you really haven't a clue.
I spent most of my early ski career with French, Italian, British and Canadian ski instructors all trying to undo each other's work. They certainly had no concept of "best".
And I've had nearly all of that conflicting advice on how to ski ice given to me over the years - by CSIA Grade 4s, an ex-Olympic coach, an ex-Olympic mogul skier, BASI Level 1s and BASI Trainers. Tom Pro (who'll you'll know)'s advice was the best - "hell, just straight-line it kid!". Pretty much "best" for an ex-competition speed skier.
Last year I was told by a French instructor to stop skiing the off-piste so fluidly. He wanted me to initiate my off-piste turns by leaning my whole body into the inside of the turn, traverse, come to a near stop and repeat. I asked him why - we were in La Grave going down to St Christophe - as a ski instructor he was happy with my skiing - as a guide he was worried about snow-pack stress. He assured me that striving for style was not "best" that day. Had I not asked, I would have thought that that's how you ski off-piste.
After all, ski instructors know so much. According to one of my ski instructors last year, the centre-line of the ski is the chord centre. That was an ISTD.
I only really started learning when I realised that "There's more than one way to ski. What's best is often a matter of personal opinion. Ski instructors disagree with each other." I only really started to learn to ski when I took responsibility for having an opinion of my own and finding out what was "best" for me.
BTW - I went down the largest part of my last run of the day on Saturday going sideways. It was certainly the safest thing to do. The piste was full of out of control skiers trying to stick the sodding edges in and careering all over the place...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight,
Are you trying to say that unless you are an instructor you know nothing about technique?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Where did I say that?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| GrahamN, well done! You've outlined just how I would have answered it! The clue was in one of my earlier posts, (intent). My complete rounded answer to that particular question would have encompassed two different tactical approaches, with different outcomes! |
No doubt those of us who didn't realise this was a competition feel duly chastened. But not to worry, we all love being addressed de haut en bas.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PhillipStanton, as you well know, it's a pyramid. Lots of stuff and noise at the bottom end, but as you progress up, the options narrow to a point.
That is the goal.
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PhillipStanton,
I can relate to this...
I have skied a bit and I think you build up experience to make a call of what to do, when.... plenty of stuff catches me out but most of my ski buddies will have a perspectrive on something.. I have gotten myself into quite a few hairy situations and what that does is not faze you for the next one. Of course, you'd like to avoid these but with the best will in the world, sometimes, you don't.
I liked the point about skiing the snowpack a certain way because of the day's conditions..... very useful to change tack for those sorts of reasons...
My particular thing is that you don't know how someone will cope with something until you see them do it...but you can't know what the route will throw up unless you know it well.....and then in what condittions. This is why I think it best top put yourself in as many situations as you can and see how you cope.....
I am not sure you need a ski instructor for this ( depends ) but you'll likely need someone with the required experience and a guide will have been there.
I think instructing takes you so far but sooner or later you will need to be making calls yourself. You will have to test yourself outside of that safety net and start trusting yourself......
If you have a bombproof side-slip, you can get past anything....... almost..
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Hurtle, is there any danger of you sticking to the topic, instead of slinging insults around?
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veeeight,
I haven't even got close to an insult.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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veeeight - I've been dealing with the largely pointy end for a while now. There's still little sign of a point. In either sense.
It is a truth universally accepted that anyone who believes there is any single truth is sadly mistaken. (And I trust we can all see the self-mockery in that statement.)
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Right, so today I learn that instructors etc can't agree on "the best" method and there is many "correct" ways of skiing. THis is good news as it means I can justify no longer having lessons and start trying to convince others that my style of skiing is in fact the best and only way 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Boris. You really want the answer to that...?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PhillipStanton, It's an interesting "point". I think I can understand veeeight's point of view, in that I think there probably is an ideal/optimal choice of technique, speed, etc for any given descent. I don't think anyone has yet discovered a single best way to teach though!
This thread being a good case in point. Christopher's reasonable question about he should cope with icy patches has a whole bunch of correct and reaonable answers, (even mine included) but tricky to see how Christopher will apply them to his skiing!
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| ... I think there probably is an ideal/optimal choice of technique, speed, etc for any given descent. |
Which might well change depending on external factors (eg how busy the slope is) as well as internal factors (can I be arsed to ski this at pace)?
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You know it makes sense.
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There are also a lot of people who have just read the headline (only one way to ski) without reading the words that followed that headline!
rob, yes, that train of thought struck me as I was watching Strictly Come Dancing It Takes Two tonight, watching their closed skill sport of dancing (controlled environment etc.), vs. the open skilled sport of skiing.
So whilst for a particular pitch and intent there may be a most effective method of skiing, it is the variable external factors that may cause you to deviate from that!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| veeeight wrote: |
| So whilst for a particular pitch and intent there may be a most effective method of skiing, it is the variable external factors that may cause you to deviate from that! |
This probably falls into the category of angels on pinheads, but don't internal factors also dictate the most effective way for an individual to ski a certain pitch. Skill set, level of commitment, etc will all change how a skier should best ski the terrain in front of them. No good thinking that the optimum way to tackle an icy red is carved GS turns when your 'highest' skill set in those conditions is very skiddy parallel turns (I speak from experience here...).
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, to avoid angels on pinheads, yes! The biggest of which is probably mental state.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
Interesting... I think relative to the ice issue we have to possibly align peoples 'expectations' of what the skis might do with the 'reality' of what the skis might do.
ie IF you can get your skis to grip/bite on ice, its going to go f'ing fast. Are you ready for that?
IF you edge a bit but don't reach the 'biting point' things are going to tend to go sideways more than they would on grippier snow. Are you ready for that? (Its amazing how many people are caught out by that but its a predictable physical fact/reality).
There are different approaches, however we have to work within the reality of what our equipment (and bodies) will do.
(Yet its amazing how many people expect their skis to perform in a way that simply isn't physically possible.) |
Stick around offpisteskiing I think you might have a lot to offer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| (Yet its amazing how many people expect their skis to perform in a way that simply isn't physically possible.) |
In fairness, I know very many skiers who have no idea of what's physically possible, or likely...so hard for them to form reasonable expectations...
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David Murdoch, and surely it is up to their instructors to explain to their students what the limitations of their skis are, as well as how to ski on them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Why the constant attacks on the BZK forum?
There have been 4 recently, I think, started by SZK, CEM, skimott, v8. Is this a conspiracy?
What's your beef exactly?
The way I read it, is it so much to ask for posters just to be polite to each other? Posting their own opinion rather than criticising another post or worse still another poster. Then everyone could just go on posting in peace, whether on BZK or elsewhere. I don't personally see anything special about BZK - it isn't a public service, it's just another part of this public message board.
Some of you and your supporters may indeed be well intentioned but might in fact the real problem for others of you be one of indignant superiority? Is it that some of you, and some others too, want your superior knowledge acknowledged by a special status? So your pearls will be gratefully and humbly received and you don't have to compete with posts from the great ignorant unwashed? Is that what it will take to stop such of you sometimes coming across as patronising and condescending know-it-alls? Or do some believe that qualifying as an expert entitles you or modifies your genes so you're obliged to flounceo off in a huff?
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
Interesting... I think relative to the ice issue we have to possibly align peoples 'expectations' of what the skis might do with the 'reality' of what the skis might do.
ie IF you can get your skis to grip/bite on ice, its going to go f'ing fast. Are you ready for that?
IF you edge a bit but don't reach the 'biting point' things are going to tend to go sideways more than they would on grippier snow. Are you ready for that? (Its amazing how many people are caught out by that but its a predictable physical fact/reality).
There are different approaches, however we have to work within the reality of what our equipment (and bodies) will do.
(Yet its amazing how many people expect their skis to perform in a way that simply isn't physically possible.) |
Thank you, I found that both interesting and helpful. Please do indeed stick around, if you can bear it!
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| ...there probably is an ideal/optimal choice of technique, speed, etc for any given descent. I don't think anyone has yet discovered a single best way to teach though! |
Without wishing to be (too) arsey, I disagree. "Best" requires some terms of measurement and a measurement scale. Whose are we using - BASI's, CSIA's, PSIA's, ...?
Even in ski racing there seems to be little accepted wisdom on "best" - and even then Miller or Maier come along and upset the apple cart.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There are clearly many ways of describing how to ski and some ways will click better for some people than others. I like some others on these threads do not seem able to learn much about how to ski by reading a description of how to do it, I need lessons. The descriptions cleary benefit some people though and it would be a shame to get to rancorous over these things. I enjoy some of the descriptions.
I have though learned a bit I hope over the last few years just in terms of attitude to skiing/ lessons from BZK and its many contributors and benefitted from it.
The advice on this thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=33211 is not completely consistent however by reading the different answers and using what's appropriate the questioner seems to have benefitted a great deal.
Lets keep the forum and accept that we won't all agree with all the answers.
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The diversity of the views is surely part of the interest and the fun.
The original poster on the ice thread did not specify that they were only interested in the views of Instructors. It was a well pitched opening to an interesting discussion.
Neither did the OP specify the kind of gradient that was being talked about. Posters could have been talking about a small patch of ice on a green run, or an icy black mogul field etc etc. To draw conclusions from the contradictory nature of ensuing posts is silly. To take umbrage from people disagreeing with a particular view seems futile too. I could have dug out other threads where the professionals were disagreeing with each other.
Skiing is not Cult, we do not have to slavishly follow the teachings of one particular guru, but have the freedom to explore for ourselves.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Helen Beaumont, absolutely. Prerequisite being that they have an instructor of course...
PhillipStanton, without wishing to be (too) pedantic, I'm going to stick to my guns - but agree that "best" does require definition and and qualification. For example, obviously in France, the ESF way is clearly "zee best". Whether or not it stacks up anywhere else is immaterial.
Easier to see in competition, whether by the clock or judged (assuming fair judging) - but then "best" includes subtext not limited to, "on the day, with those skis, at that time, without the pesky tourist running in front of the racer, after "two reds and two whites" [paraphrased but for extra points who was reputed to say something like that?], using "current" technique, et al.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'll pedant your pedantishness...
...or would do if I didn't have to go to work.
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Ski instruction is the teaching of techniques until they become a skill. Any teacher will tell you that pupils respond best to a wide range of teaching methods and that no one way is the definitive "best" way to teach. Surely the best instructors can recognise what specific stlye of teaching works best for each pupil. It would also equate that the most knowledgeable and the most experienced instructor is not always the "best" instructor.
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You know it makes sense.
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skier88, i have no beef with BZK's as you so delicately put it, all i wanted was a medium where if a person asked a sensible question that they got a sensible answer or selection of sensible answer, there were several threads where some of the 'pros' were just arguing amongst themselves scoring points and try to out do each other...if you had read the relevent threads you may understand this and not just throw acusations around like you just did
this thread is just another example of the niggling which goes on. at this point i am not even going to bother coming back into this section of the forum even though there are many issues raised whcih may be equipment related, to be honest i am considering whether to bother looking at any of the place in future, right now i am too busy to bother with any of it
BTW welco0me to the mad house
I'm off
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skier88, In line with CEMs comments above I find it interesting that you lump me in the anti BZK's camp when the exact opposite is the case. i have been for the last few weeks starting threads on trying to figure out how to keep a technically biased forum going on the UK's biggest skiing related bulletin board. I seemed to have failed and like CEM have given up on it and wont be bothering with technical discussions here in the future.
CEM, perhaps talk to you on EPIC sometime? hope your not going to give up exercising the brain cells completely on line as you always have a lot to contribute.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
hope your not going to give up exercising the brain cells completely on line as you always have a lot to contribute.
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skimottaret, CEM, This is applicable to you both. And it will be a great loss if you both withdraw from posting on this forum.
Such a shame.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Imagine the novelty value in a chocolate teapot that works.
skimottaret, & perhaps CEM, (if he is still here ) I know it is a pain, but can someone give a quick precis of the problems in this section. I know it sounds a bit fick, but I am still a bit puzzled.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Frosty the Snowman, me too, cannot see what the big problem is 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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CEM, I hope you come back. I've learnt a lot of stuff from you and am forever in your debt. I may well of given up skiing until you helped me with my problem of knock knees and what to do with boot alignment, footbeds etc. Merci.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Frosty the Snowman, I (and CEM) have done just that several times. go back and read a few of the threads on "why we should keep BZK's" and the opposing "smash it up and kill it" school of thought. interesting both types of threads seem to come to the same similar conclusions.
Too much bickering, not enough sensible conversations and that detailed technical discussions on skiing without supporting pictures, video, diagrams etc doesnt work for most people. Using technical terms comes accross as elitist and the instructors who contribute are egotistical and/or desirous of hero worship, not genuinely trying to help with advice or learn themselves when 'talking shop'. No tolerance of contrary views and no appreciation that there is no "one" way to descibe how skiing works or how best to teach someone how to ski....
The underlying sentiment is that there are many here who dont want the site to become too techy as it feels less friendly and those who wish to discuss such things should go elsewhere...
Does that help?
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skimottaret, I agree with some of your underlying sentiments about the lack of tolerance exhibited for diversity of views, and support the general desire for clarity of expression.
But who gets to judge/choose/dictate the right style of posting when this forum is basically a discussion in the corner of a crowded pub?
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skimottaret, Forgive me for saying this but I think you are reacting to the minority not the majority.
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stoatsbrother,
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But who gets to judge/choose/dictate the right style of posting when this forum is basically a discussion in the corner of a crowded pub?
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no one, but i finally realised I can pick which type of pub i want to go to depending on what i am interested in doing. i dont always have to go to my local...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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minx, perhaps, but it has gotten so tedious i cant be ar*sed anymore. But I am not the only one who has had enough, CEM has jacked it in offpisteskiing has said he probably wont bother in future. when is the last time easiski or fastman have posted let alone any other instructors?
When is the last time you saw a new technical thread being started here?
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Frosty the Snowman, stoatsbrother, me three. There are times when discussion gets a little robust, but it gets way worse elsewhere, on the whole it seems to me that this is a remarkably civilised place, and this is a walk in the park compared to other fora I've been on in the past. As a number have already witnessed on this thread, there are clearly many different ways to ski in general, and schools of thought, so a little disagreement should be expected, but to get upset by what little there is here strikes me as a bit prima-donna-ish. There have been a number of snipes from SZK (probably under the affluence ), and sidekicks, but so what - ignore him. skimottaret seems to have a bee in his bonnet about splitting the forum, has raised the idea several times, and found people disagree with him, think it's a bad idea and suggested workable alternatives. So big deal, that idea didn't fly, move on.
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FAQ
's its nearly Christmas........... peace and goodwill to all men, women and ski instructors 