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BzK = Chocolate Teapot?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
So with all the recent hoo-haa about conflicting advice given by pros - here's a recent thread with relatively few pro contributions.

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=33287


OP - How do I ski on ice?

A1: weight on the outside ski
A2: ignore it, ski slower
A3: sharpen your edges, lean forward, unweight
A4: demo some WC slalom skis
A5: dig your downhill ski in really hard
A6: soften every muscle, gently get the weight onto downhill ski
A7: go faster, slower is worse
A8: slower and softer is better
A9: clench buttocks, get skis flat
A10: sideslip
A11: even weight, flat skis, no edge
A12: wider stance, edge check at end of turn
A13: relax and edge
A14: wider stance, more 2 footed, get centered, soft on your edges
A15: don't turn
A16: sideslip
A17: release the edges
A18: outside leg release
A19: all your weight on downhill ski, really drive your skis
A20: relax
A21: no to wider stance


So how on earth is a newbie supposed to get a straight answer out of that lot?

Chocolate teapot?


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 17-12-07 14:37; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
veeeight, Laughing Laughing Laughing
Of course, the correct answer is: slide down or your ar$e Toofy Grin
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Michelle wrote:
veeeight, Laughing Laughing Laughing
Of course, the correct answer is: slide down or your ar$e Toofy Grin


What if the piste isn't wide enough? Shocked Laughing
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Wear The Fox Hat, you just wait Toofy Grin
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I go with the first part of A9, normally followed by a 'release' of sorts. Embarassed
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veeeight, chocolate teapot it may appear to be, but I read it as a list of everyone's different coping strategies. None of them may be technically correct, some a bit tongue in cheek. Is there really onely one answer for everything?
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
AxsMan, I hear brown ski pants are in this year.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
veeeight, if newbie is serious about learning skiing professionally, then they will ask their instructor when in resort. If they are happy to try it and see, then they have a number of techniques with which to play around and come to a conclusion Toofy Grin wink
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Well obviously I could tell you all the correct answer but I really woudn't want to contradict anyone Wink
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Wear The Fox Hat, Embarassed Laughing
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
veeeight, what is the straight answer?
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I'll come back later after several lagers and put you all right rolling eyes
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
bh1 wrote:
veeeight, what is the straight answer?

I could give you one, but it just doesn't seem worth it!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Isn't there more than one way to ski hard pack and ice? For me the joy & frustration (in equal measure) of skiing is that there is normally more than one way to skin the cat. Expecting simple answers to simple questions in BZK is unrealistic in my opinion, just as much as it is unrealistic to expect unanimity in some of the discussions which go on elsewhere on snowHeads whether that be related to skiing or not. Just so long as people are respectful of each others' opinion and experience I can't see what the problem is, even when there are firm disagreements between amateurs/pros, amateurs/amateurs or pros/pros.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar, absolutely. I'm sure if you asked four different ski instructors how to ski on ice you would get seven different answers. That particular question has so many variables anyway, depending on ability, what skis you are on and so on. How an experienced skier on factory prepared GS skis with an 87 degree edge angle copes with ice would differ somewhat from a newbie on a battered set of rental B2s.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Personally, I don't mind reading contradictory answers to the same question, I just like being able - with a little effort, if required, acknowledging that in many respects I am a bear of little brain - to understand those answers. I can't however, help feeling that you, veeeight, are starting threads with the specific intention of stirring up unpleasantness. This:
Quote:

bh1 wrote:
veeeight, what is the straight answer?

I could give you one, but it just doesn't seem worth it!

is but one example of evidence for my theory. To my mind, a good way of answering that question might have been to give your answer, perhaps to give a reason for your answer as well and, my goodness this would be really revolutionary, to acknowledge that there is more than one way of skinning a cat and that there could be other, equally valid viewpoints out there.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar, BGA, sorry, inadvertent duplication of your views.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
veeeight, We all know the correct answer, we just describe it differently wink
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The OP now has 20 options to try, a box of chocolate teapots.

87° does that include the 0.7° base angle?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

I can't however, help feeling that you, veeeight, are starting threads with the specific intention of stirring up unpleasantness

Oh trust me, there was not much stirring needed. The existing prevailing unpleasatness is of sufficient magnitude to have already seen off quite a few ski pros, and as I've indicated before, this is highly irritating.
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veeeight, forgive me, exacerbating might have been a better choice of word than stirring, but this does not affect the point I was trying to make.

Perhaps a better solution than flouncing off in a huff, would be for the offended professionals to tackle head-on, and in public, any remark that they find unpleasant (that at least would have the advantage of enabling other snowHeads to form their own view of where the fault, if any, lies) or to tackle the alleged miscreant via a pm. One professional has done this to my certain knowledge and a rather tense situation was, by dint of a heartfelt apology which the professional was open-minded enough to accept, defused - and everyone moved on, rather than away. A slightly more mature course of action?
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
veeeight wrote:
So with all the recent hoo-haa about conflicting advice given by pros - here's a recent thread with relatively few pro contributions.

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=33287


OP - How do I ski on ice?

A1: weight on the outside ski
A2: ignore it, ski slower
A3: sharpen your edges, lean forward, unweight
A4: demo some WC slalom skis
A5: dig your downhill ski in really hard
A6: soften every muscle, gently get the weight onto downhill ski
A7: go faster, slower is worse
A8: slower and softer is better
A9: clench buttocks, get skis flat
A10: sideslip
A11: even weight, flat skis, no edge
A12: wider stance, edge check at end of turn
A13: relax and edge
A14: wider stance, more 2 footed, get centered, soft on your edges
A15: don't turn
A16: sideslip
A17: release the edges
A18: outside leg release
A19: all your weight on downhill ski, really drive your skis
A20: relax
A21: no to wider stance


So how on earth is a newbie supposed to get a straight answer out of that lot?

Chocolate teapot?



The message is clear.

There is no one best way to ski.

Change one's style to suit the context.

Constantly adapt and change, depending on the situation.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:

There is no one best way to ski.

Change one's style to suit the context.

Constantly adapt and change, depending on the situation.


No idea whether this view comes from Whitegold, His Holiness the Pope, or a sock puppet of either of them. Makes a lot of sense, though. wink
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Hilarious...


Personally very few people need to be driven away, but......

Post or don't post... the thread will live or die depending if anyone finds it of use. The best bit of advice for any given person can come from any quarter, and if it works and suits then fine. The fact that an industry professonal..or not..gives that advice is irrelevant. Next there will be a move or suggestion that only certified advice should be given...

FFS...some people need to lighten up... !! Its a ski forum and people like to discuss things, or like to hear their own voice... or like to post a funny or snidey comment...or.....................!!!!

rolling eyes rolling eyes
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veeeight, Awesome. Proof indeed. I have to say i stay away from BZK because i don't like to read too much, finding a gem to help someone ski is a job for a sub-editor.
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For me this is very easy

Q. How do you ski on ice
A. Very badly
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Stop.

Skiers who believe that "There is no best way to ski" are skiers who are in denial about improving their skiing.

Yes there are plenty of ways to ski a particular pitch. Some good, some bad, some better, some worse. "Getting down" or "Surviving" constitutes a "way" of skiing.


But there will be only one way to ski a particular pitch efficiently and effectively (with the best biomechanical advantage, balancing the forces, using the equipment, intent etc.)
Two at the most wink
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Boris wrote:
For me this is very easy

Q. How do you ski on ice
A. Very badly



Me too
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
There are many ways to skin a cat.

One can ski fast or slow. Gently or aggressively. Standing tall or in a tuck. Big turns or little turns. Straight-down or side-to-side.

All require different skills at different times.

There is no one best way to ski.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Whitegold wrote:
There is no one best way to ski.


Yes there is: With a smile on your face. Everything else is for losers! snowHead
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
veeeight, Firstly, I don't want to get into an argument - but ...

a lot of us on here see the mogul skiers on TV and read about their technique. Now, I'm sure that is an efficient and effective way to ski moguls but a lot of us would never, ever, be able to do it because we're too old and have knackered knees. So we need a different way to get down them safely, with (hopefully) a little bit of style.

Just an example .....
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
There is no one best way to ski = There is no one best way to drive?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Michelle wrote:
veeeight, Laughing Laughing Laughing
Of course, the correct answer is: slide down or your ar$e Toofy Grin


Saves on the cost of a Piste Basher I suppose. wink
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veeeight wrote:
There is no one best way to ski = There is no one best way to drive?


The answer for both is the same. Safely and in control.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
veeeight, at least 5 of the contributors to that thread DO have instructors licenses. The replies mostly fall into two strategies a) advice on how you may be able to ski it and b) advice on how to survive it, and several replies highlighted that they were considering those different strategies. There were some variations in the "how to try to ski it" strategy, and some of the most widely diverging comments arose from misuderstandings of previous posts. The difference between A14 and A21 was a sideways comment relevant, quite reasonably, to where the poster was starting from. The only real difference of opinion was between whether it should be more two footed or more downhill ski - which I guess could be worthy of more elaboration. I don't see (much of) a problem. And if you disagree with anything there it's more useful to put your side and correct (what you perceive as) errors than just have a bitch.

And every ski school you go to you will be very clear on the "one best way to ski" - it's just that most of them will be different wink Puzzled
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GrahamN, well done! You've outlined just how I would have answered it! The clue was in one of my earlier posts, (intent). My complete rounded answer to that particular question would have encompassed two different tactical approaches, with different outcomes!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
veeeight, For me it all changed with Tomba (how would he ski ice), however there is still a deep schism in the skiing world, one leg or two.
Where do you stand (or is it hop) Very Happy

Personalty I have picked up a huge amount from snow heads (got my telepeage this morning) however I don't learn skills at all well by reading, I know others do.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:

Where do you stand

Pinching WTFH's line, I ski on the NA continent, so avoid it for much of the time Laughing
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
veeeight, never pinch someone else's line. Particularly not on a powder day!
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Interesting... I think relative to the ice issue we have to possibly align peoples 'expectations' of what the skis might do with the 'reality' of what the skis might do.

ie IF you can get your skis to grip/bite on ice, its going to go f'ing fast. Are you ready for that?
IF you edge a bit but don't reach the 'biting point' things are going to tend to go sideways more than they would on grippier snow. Are you ready for that? (Its amazing how many people are caught out by that but its a predictable physical fact/reality).

There are different approaches, however we have to work within the reality of what our equipment (and bodies) will do.

(Yet its amazing how many people expect their skis to perform in a way that simply isn't physically possible.)
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