 Poster: A snowHead
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I know that my two have had some of their most fun and memorable times when they have been off the leash skiing as a group with the other kids we've been with.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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the ignore option is always open to them to relieve their stresses.
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funny you should mention that, @T Bar.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Origen wrote: |
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the ignore option is always open to them to relieve their stresses.
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funny you should mention that, @T Bar. |
There's probably a lot out there with my name on ignore.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
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the ignore option is always open to them to relieve their stresses.
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funny you should mention that, @T Bar. |
There's probably a lot out there with my name on ignore. |
I VERY much doubt that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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+1
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| KSH wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
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the ignore option is always open to them to relieve their stresses.
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funny you should mention that, @T Bar. |
There's probably a lot out there with my name on ignore. |
I VERY much doubt that. |
I have probably become somewhat more bland when posting.
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My youngest (11 years old) will be skiing with other family members next year...they are 15 and 14. They are all quite sensible.
Boundaries will be...ski with me for a bit then go off with the others but stay together and we will meet for lunch here (but do NOT be late). If there is a problem then ring me. Stay together.
He carries a laminated copy of his passport in an inside pocket with my contact details and also a QR code that contains all the same info and a little bit more (copy of GHIC, passport photo etc). Have also considered a dog tag thing for him with the same info but then realised it was a bit too much as we ski in Switzerland and not a war zone (although the runs back to Verbier in the afternoon could be classed as such).
Ultimately, he is quite sensible, a decent skier, speaks fluent French and, as long as the follows the rules, gets more freedom.
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| Origen wrote: |
My 12 and 14 year old grand-daughters wouldn't want to ski on their own either. Absolutely not - and their parents are still much better skiers than they are. All mine liked to do their own thing. And because they started as small kids they rapidly became better (or at any rate faster!) skiers than their parents so it was a bit boring just with us.
Kids vary. Some need prompting and help to become more independent, starting with easy steps (not skiing unaccompanied, but maybe getting a bus to meet friends at the shopping centre) others need reining in. The OP raised the question, presumably, because they wanted a range of views. Pointless if we all said the same thing!  |
My daughter (much better skier than I am by about age 14) and two of the boys (also better than me at the same age) were/are racers. They have skied lots on their own and enjoyed it. But they never found it "boring" skiing with us and have always chosen to do so for most of the time. We actually enjoy each other's company you see, and that did not change as they grew up through their teens. We still ski largely as a group especially before lunch (no-one wants to miss out on me paying for a decent one) despite them now being 20.18,16 and 14. Different perspectives as your say. But I would emphasise that there is no "right" way to parent and am careful to neither condemn how others go about it nor tell people how they should do it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have probably become somewhat more bland when posting
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Don't, @T Bar, you were fine the way you were.
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| Origen wrote: |
To me it's akin to the argument about riding a bike to school. Was talking to my son in law about his 14 year old daughter (my granddaughter) who wants to buy herself a little old 19' sailing boat (all her savings, £500!). He was wondering about her sailing alone but I pointed out it was statistically a good deal safer than riding a bike down the local main road (which she does regularly, they are a family of cyclists) especially if she stays "on piste" in the sheltered waters of Chichester Harbour. She's a sensible girl and a good sailor.
Masses depends on the other kids and how sensible they are. And, as suggested, if there is ANY departure from the agreed plan, not turning up at the meeting place, going onto runs which they'd been told not to, instant grounding.
I find it astonishing that some people don't even let 14 and 15 year olds ski without mummy or daddy. They'll be at uni doing sex and drugs in a few years - they need to start to grow up and take responsibility long before then.  |
For what it’s worth agreed to all that you say. We’ve had much the same attitude to parenting and it’s generally worked- just had a lovely birthday meal for our 26yo daughter and her 22 yo sister reminiscing about lots but including bombing around (well known to us) ski resorts unsupervised from their early teens with their friends and cousins.
Meanwhile one of their brothers is back from a hike through the Pyrenees followed by 4 weeks free diving in Egypt tomorrow (last dive yesterday so survived thank goodness but that was a worry!) and their other brother is recovering from a dislocated shoulder playing Uni rugby this week. Life is a risk and they need to get used to it early was our approach and they seem to have taken that to heart!
To be fair our friends and family think we’ve been a bit too laissez fair but there you go.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My no 2 son, much more adventurous than his big brother, never told us half of what he got up to travelling round Africa, @Doccam. But I did hear from family members that he had turned up, with girlfriend, at their farm in Zimbabwe both with shaven heads as the only way to get rid of the lice. His most dangerous moments were undoubtedly on African busses! That was the lad who I once came across sitting beside a piste in La Rosiere, at 14, smoking! But I do think it was just tobacco....... at that stage! Equally, my parents were unaware at the time that, at 22, I had to decide on the spot, airside in Mozambique, whether to get into the back of a two-seater plane with a strange man and fly into the bush. I did......
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Origen best not to know I am now increasingly finding!
Looking at the original OP though
| Henwc wrote: |
I'm looking for views from people about skiing with older children who want a bit more independence.
My son is 11 years old and can ski red runs comfortably (the French variety) in most conditions although he doesn't enjoy zero visibility and variable snow combined. He's still a long way from going faster than me although I'm told he'll likely catch up sooner than I expect.
My current approach to skiing with him is to stay above him and within about 100m or so while keeping him in sight pretty much the whole time. He likes being independent but I have been resisting letting him out of sight because he seems too young.
We are going skiing as a pair at half term and also with another family (including a couple of his friends of a similar age) at Easter. On the Easter trip he would love to go off with the other kids but again this sounds too risky to me.
I'd welcome any views and any practical tips to letting him be a bit more independent but also keeping him safe please. |
@Henwc Go for it- ours loved going off with mates at age 11 and as above still reminisce about taking things a little further in a year or two, but be prepared for sleepless nights in a few years time when they are taking that independence to the limits!
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If you've ever lost contact with your ski buddy whilst coming down a relatively easy piste and then after the long hike back up found then covered in blood and heavily concussed following a collision with another skier then I doubt you'd be inclined to let your below teenage offspring ski alone. Not much fun following them down on the stretcher either, or sitting in the medical centre as they await assessment.
Skiing is a dangerous sport and the mountain can be full of idiots. Now obviously it's not possible to prevent all accidents but sometimes just spotting a few boy/man racers and having a breather as they blast past might make the difference. Or maybe gentle reminders about which route to plot down the piste and not stopping in dangerous places as it all adds up.
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You know it makes sense.
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Skiing is a dangerous sport
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Statistically, I doubt whether skiing as dangerous as carefully riding a bike around the busy roads in the UK. Or, perhaps, driving at 130 kph down a crowded French motorway. And I suspect that many parents overestimate their power to protect a child skiing 50 yards ahead of them (or 50 yards behind) from impact with an adult skiing out of control.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Jammy 07 yes that’s not good but we knew that was a risk. However the only way to avoid the possibility of that happening is not to allow them to ski at all, so it then moves to a discussion about tolerance of that risk. Parenting is about trying to work out where that line lies and this thread highlights a range of views.
All I can say is we have been loose on the reins and our now grown up kids loved the freedom and experiences that led to and seem to have benefited from it. That’s what @Henwc was asking about - and the great thing is there is a diversity of opinion above for them to take from.
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Poster: A snowHead
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the great thing is there is a diversity of opinion above for them to take from.
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 Exactly. I'm just grateful that I'm not having to navigate "parental rules" through the internet and social media, with 10 year olds allowed to participate in "class" Whatsapp groups being sent - by their classmates, not sick old men - explicit content about anal sex. As a grandmother I can duck that stuff, and just do the Christmas cake baking and buy ski lessons for Christmas presents!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Doccam,
Totally agree that as parents it's about finding the right balance, which sometimes means reaching out to others for advice before deciding our own path.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Origen wrote: |
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Skiing is a dangerous sport
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And I suspect that many parents overestimate their power to protect a child skiing 50 yards ahead of them (or 50 yards behind) from impact with an adult skiing out of control. |
Lots of ways to lesson the risk though.
Or you can just send them out there and hope for the best.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We let our children off on their own by the age of 11, but they knew the resort well and that makes a difference. I picked up a good tip on this forum a few years ago to slip a card in their pocket with instructions on what to do if they got lost and which we had talked through before being allowed off on their own- don’t wander off the piste and call these numbers (ours and the emergency numbers). They also had a whistle.
There was a terrible accident in Flaine a few years back where a child had skied on ahead when his parent had stopped to help a sibling, had got lost and wandered off piste with tragic consequences. For me, the best advice for them is to stay on the piste if they are lost and hammer that message home.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have a better half who is still not safe out on her own. I let her lap me on a run as my knees had had enough. She skied off chair in wrong direction, then, instead of skiing to chair, stopped half way down and schlepped back up. Meanwhile I was asking strangers for the use of a phone as my battery had died. Maybe by the time she is 60 she'll be safe out, but that's only another 3 years
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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No, sounds like a last-century boy scout manual
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| Henwc wrote: |
Any other suggestions or for Serre Chevalier? |
From experience, quite a lot of the pistes either cross or diverge - easy to take a wrong turn and, depending on where that happens, it’s quite easy to end up in an adjacent valley/bowl. Which, whilst not disastrous, could be stressful. Again, from experience in SC, shortwave radios didn’t cut it when it came to group communications.
Depending on where you’re staying, Serre Ratier, above Chantemerle, does offer a relatively easy point from which your son and friends could do some laps on either the blue Vallons or red Draye (not an overly difficult red - mostly quite wide).
From Serre Ratier, take the Combes chair which accesses Draye. Or, take Eftanis blue which links to Les Vallons (my first blue run as a beginner, a long time ago).
There’s quite a nice bar/restaurant with outside terrace where you can sit and wait….or, they can while you do some similar laps.
The bowl above Serre Ratier is Grande Alp and there are, again, some fairly straight forward options for lapping around in a relatively controlled environment.
Only you can answer whether your son and friends have the necessary degree of “common sense” to be let off the leash a bit. Fair play for coming on here and asking the question, though. I know my Sister and I had supportive parents who always encouraged us to be independent from an early age. Mostly went well, sometimes not By 16, I was booking and taking my own holidays, sometimes abroad.
Good luck - Serre Che is a great ski area.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If they have iphones turn on findme and you can track them. After a day of that you'll be less concerned, I do it with my son when he's skiing or biking (he is a few years older though).
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Thanks all, I have got a really good idea of what to try next and also more importantly how to progressively increase the level of independence.
The progressive thing is key for me because as we build up he'll inevitably get into little scrapes and learn to deal with them for the next time.
My instinct is to build his skills and knowledge so he's equipped as possible rather than trying to prepare for every eventuality. It'll be a good lift conversation to have along the lines of "How would you get down safely from here if the weather came in and you were on you own?".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My instinct is to build his skills and knowledge so he's equipped as possible rather than trying to prepare for every eventuality.
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Yes. And as long as the "no off piste" instruction is obeyed, then a child in a spot of bother will be surrounded by other holiday makers to help him, not to mention expert first aiders who can be summoned in minutes. Not like, say, in the middle of the Cairngorms, which really is a hazardous environment.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Or teach them to deal with off-piste as well, so if they do end up in bother they can deal with it themselves.
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@doddsie, I never ski off piste on my own. Neither do any of my children. Or any of my friends for that matter. Not even side piste, it is a simple but golden rule. Part of teaching people, children or adults, to ski off-piste is that very rule.
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You know it makes sense.
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No I don't either, but my son accidentally skied out of bounds in the US last year, with 2 friends of the same age (13), so I'm glad he knew what to do. It was a white-out powder day and they took a wrong turn in the trees, realised they were off track and out of bounds, so phoned in to the school and local patrol, assured them they were confident they knew where they were and skied down and walked out to the road and back to the lift (2.5 hour walk in knee deep snow). Once the patrol and school had there location they could track them on their phones, saw they were heading in the right direction and left them to it, just kept tracking them until they were back at school. Quite a few people make the same mistake each season and head in the wrong direction, which leads to a full-scale search and rescue.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Origen, Yes thanks good point, he'll know not to leave the piste markers if he's on his own.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Henwc wrote: |
Thanks all, I have got a really good idea of what to try next and also more importantly how to progressively increase the level of independence.
The progressive thing is key for me because as we build up he'll inevitably get into little scrapes and learn to deal with them for the next time.
My instinct is to build his skills and knowledge so he's equipped as possible rather than trying to prepare for every eventuality. It'll be a good lift conversation to have along the lines of "How would you get down safely from here if the weather came in and you were on you own?". |
Sounds just the ticket. Exciting and I’m sure enjoyable few years ahead for you both!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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walked out to the road and back to the lift (2.5 hour walk in knee deep snow)
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They won't do that too often. Conversations about how to get back to base are a good idea @Doccam. Like "What do we do now if the engine stops?" when out sailing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I always tried to avoid my kids, mostly because they used to terrorise nervous skiers, and it was easier to not have to deal with angry Karens going off about irresponsible snowboarders. They used to turn up at the truck end of day looking for food, although there was that one time I got a phone call from a mate who was a patroller who had caught them smoking weed out the back of the groomer shed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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One good conversation I had with mine was that no friends on a pow day applies to family as well, so if they got stuck I wasn’t going to hike back up to help them - use your pack to get back up and get moving, or sit tight and I’ll get you on the next lap. They learned the hard way about not falling over on deep days, and it’s worked out well for them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@hang11, you can’t say “groomer shed” here. Pearls will be clutched 
@phil_w, I recognise all your post.
I realise that the start of the the 80’s was a long time back and attitudes in the main have changed. But, I would have been 12 and my old man (who had never skied) would, regularly drive me to Cairngorm (an hour away). Drop me in the Cas carpark, drive off and do God knows what for the day. When come back to pick me up and drive us back home after the lifts shut. I felt super spoilt that he drove me.
On other occasions a mates dad would drive us. He never skied either. We’d get to the car park, he’d head off mountain walking, we’d head for the chairlift. Again meeting up at the car at the end of the day. No one ever felt neglected. In fact it was the opposite.
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| dode wrote: |
I realise that the start of the the 80’s was a long time back and attitudes in the main have changed. But, I would have been 12 and my old man (who had never skied) would, regularly drive me to Cairngorm (an hour away). Drop me in the Cas carpark, drive off and do God knows what for the day. When come back to pick me up and drive us back home after the lifts shut. I felt super spoilt that he drove me.
On other occasions a mates dad would drive us. He never skied either. We’d get to the car park, he’d head off mountain walking, we’d head for the chairlift. Again meeting up at the car at the end of the day. No one ever felt neglected. In fact it was the opposite. |
The only “attitude” that has changed is what risk the parents are willing to accept.
The youngster will have to learn somehow, perhaps the hard way in some situations. 99% of them would have had zero incidents. But for the small chance that things does go peer shaped, are the parents ready to accept the consequence? In the “old days” (of start of 80’s), parents are more accepting of such “random” outcomes. Nowadays, parents are generally trying harder to remove as much of such undesirable outcomes.
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| phil_w wrote: |
How about the catholic girls, whose parents and religion had all sorts of rules designed to prevent them from doing what teenage girls do.
They were the best, really wild |
I once read an article that said that knowing the meaning of sin from a very young age was educational!
How do children reach the age of 11 without being able to read a map? But then I suppose I know some adults who can't read a map.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@James the Last, in fairness, some ski maps are truly baffling.
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FAQ
