 Poster: A snowHead
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| tsgsh wrote: |
| You berate snowHeads for being resistant to change but you will not change your position one iota. |
Because changing my position would mean I would be accepting nothing can be improved, which I find impossible to believe based on the number of collisions that continue to occur.
There has been little evidence of people on this forum wanting to improve it either and no suggestions as to how, which leads me to a conclusion that you guys think it is actually perfect and nothing can be improved. So we continue to be at loggerheads on threads like this and you continue to shout down anyone who tries to suggest otherwise.
If I'm wrong on that, then please, let's hear some of your suggestions, other than just saying "collisions only occur because people are purposely acting like dic*s".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Ozboy, Yes, that's the one. Nobody in the waiting area seemed unduly injured but a few people came in with ambulances and went straight through. I think I was just back of the queue.
Anyway, back of ribs pain has eased up but it now hurts lower down, definitely muscular.
France soon, Mrs BoardieK looking forwards to an extra days shopping in Troyes. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| My kids have been through a couple of weeks of Austrian ski school over last few years and I don't think slope safety has been mentioned once. As I pointed in various other threads, why shouldn't they teach this topic from an early stage, it then becomes a natural part of their thought process when deciding what manoeuvres to make, what line to take, how fast to go etc.? |
Kids, especially young ones, don’t learn from being TOLD. (I think that’s what you have in mind of “taught”).
They learn by imitating. So if the instructor do something and not do something, the kids pick it up. Teach by example.
Having a class spread out taking up 80% of the width of the piste “taught” the kids it’s alright to stop in the middle of the piste! 
I’ve seen instructors jumping out of the woods onto the piste, followed by a string of little ones!
I taught (in a different continent) little ones for a bit. Our training did not include how to impart safe behavior by example. I hope other ski schools do better than that.
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The Rules are imperfect, but they always will be. They're a guide to not being a dick, and that's about it, and people will either follow it, or not. Its kind of sad that they need to be there at all, but there you go.
People just get too hung up on the word 'Rule' in the concept of them being broken or which takes precedent over what, rather than as a plan to generally rubbing along together on the mountain, without ending up in some massed brawl.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To be honest if I was an instructor the first time a student set off without looking I'd give them a warning and the second time I'd boot them out of the class. Obviously with kids this would make lessons last about 3 minutes.
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| Pyramus wrote: |
Because changing my position would mean I would be accepting nothing can be improved, which I find impossible to believe based on the number of collisions that continue to occur.
There has been little evidence of people on this forum wanting to improve it either and no suggestions as to how, which leads me to a conclusion that you guys think it is actually perfect and nothing can be improved. So we continue to be at loggerheads on threads like this and you continue to shout down anyone who tries to suggest otherwise.
If I'm wrong on that, then please, let's hear some of your suggestions, other than just saying "collisions only occur because people are purposely acting like dic*s". |
That doesn't follow at all: you are effectively claiming that no improvements can be made except those that you believe are necessary. Your proposal to re-purpose Rule 5 that you made a week or so ago would not be an improvement and I'm not sure you've actually proposed any other explicit rule changes. On the other hand, you've certainly told a number of ski instructors how they should do their jobs better. However, I believe that if everyone followed the existing rules (including making an honest assessment of their own abilities in the current conditions) then the number of collisions and particularly the number of dangerous collisions would be greatly reduced. Changing the rules won't make more people follow them.
The point I was making was that this has been going on for two months over three different threads and you've been in a minority of 1 or 2 on the original questions about whether the down hill skier/border was in some way to blame for the ensuing near miss or accident. Do you still main your original position on those? I actually went back and looked at the two videos* you posted again to see if perhaps you had a point. You didn't.
* I'm not posting a link in case someone comments on them and I don't want to get blamed for restarting that here: this is about @BoardieK being hit by a skier who either wasn't following the rules or who tried but made a serious error of judgement.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="Pyramus"]
| abc wrote: |
@tsgsh, @zikomo, come on some suggestions for safety improvements please? |
There is no need for me to make any "suggestions". as I already know perfectly well how to ski safely and how to teach others to do so.
Your assertion that ski instructors do not teach slope safety is just complete nonsense. It is an integral part of instructing. No, in general we don't have a sit down classroom lesson to drill the rules into people. But will more generally impart good habits and a sense of the rules by both example and frequent small comments. That has been found to be much more effective. Yes there are some instructors out there who are less good at this (as there are some who are less good at teaching full stop), but your constant assertions that in general instructors do not teach safety is just untrue. In fact it would be a fail in the BASI exams if you did not take account of student safety, and failed to explain to your class what they needed to do and why.
Perhaps you should pay a little bit more attention next time you get some instruction, you will notice that slope safety is just an integral part of the lesson.
Beyond that I think I, and others, have had quite enough of your "advice" on how to ski and teach. Based on what you have posted you don't have much of an idea of how to do either. And have actually posted about how you actually ski in an unsafe manner, at least on occasion. Which is ironic in the extreme.
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PS
| Pyramus wrote: |
the research paper refers to a large number of collisions being caused by people standing on the slopes
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No it doesn't. It says that "standing or sitting" is present in 3.5% of skier-skier collisions, 5.5% of skier-snowboarder and 9.7% of snowboarder-snowboarder collisions [Table 2]. So, it is not even true to say that a "large number of collisions involve people standing on the slopes", since the number is barely 3% (assuming, as the paper states, most snowboarders were sitting rather than standing). Nor does it say anywhere that standing on the slopes causes accidents. It can (being stupid and ignoring Rule 6) but the vast majority of that tiny minority will be caused by the moving skier or snowboarder hitting the standing skier, who is doing nothing wrong.
Please stop making sh¡t up!
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 27-02-24 19:35; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| tsgsh wrote: |
| Please stop making sh¡t up! |
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| adithorp wrote: |
| tsgsh wrote: |
| Please stop making sh¡t up! |
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He won’t because it’s too much fun. He’s said as much himself.
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Pretty please?
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You know it makes sense.
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| tsgsh wrote: |
| Pretty please? |
Unikely to take any notice. Not once has he shown any empathy to @BoardieK, and his injuries in his rush to spam yet another thread with his agenda.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| zikomo wrote: |
| In fact it would be a fail in the BASI exams if you did not take account of student safety, and failed to explain to your class what they needed to do and why. |
Exactly, same with IASI. Slope and class management is an important factor in the teaching assessments.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@BoardieK, hope there's nothing serious and hope you get well soon.
Clearly none of this was your fault based on your description (yes, I said it guys). My posts are simply looking to point out how/if the frequency of this sort of incident can be reduced, be it through "clarifications" of the FIS rules, "pole clicking" etc.
@zikomo, obviously I can only comment based on my experience of instruction and that of my kids. It's great to hear you see this as integral to the lessons. But as I said, in my experience it does not feature much if at all. Maybe we had bad schools and/or instructors. The focus was pretty much 100% on technique and controlling speed/direction, with little consideration of what that actually means in the context of a busy piste and considerations that can be made to reduce chances of a collision. I suspect my kids don't have much of a clue about it (they are at blue slope stage).
@tsgsh - fair challenge, it was a rather off-the-cuff reference to the research paper. I respect your contribution, you put your comments over much more respectfully than a lot of other people on here so fair play to you. I looked back at the video clips and the second one is the way more interesting one that we could debate for days about I'm sure, I still think the decision by instructor to crawl perpendicular across the middle of that narrow fairly busy piste with his student is not a very wise decision to make and is asking for trouble..regardless of Rule 2.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Pyramus, Maybe I am confusing you with someone else, but are you not the guy that likes to "pop in" to your kids lessons?
Regardless you could just ask your kids' ski instructors how they go about teaching slope safety. I am sure they will be able to reassure you, and equally sure that it will have been integrated into the (many) lessons you have taken yourself. You clearly have not really noticed, but that is often the way with good teaching.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| zikomo wrote: |
@Pyramus, Maybe I am confusing you with someone else, but are you not the guy that likes to "pop in" to your kids lessons?
Regardless you could just ask your kids' ski instructors how they go about teaching slope safety. I am sure they will be able to reassure you, and equally sure that it will have been integrated into the (many) lessons you have taken yourself. You clearly have not really noticed, but that is often the way with good teaching. |
Well, why don't you make a valid contribution to define / quantify exactly what is relayed to students in ski school training, that's relevant to piste safety specifically.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Pyramus wrote: |
I still think the decision by instructor to crawl perpendicular across the middle of that narrow fairly busy piste with his student is not a very wise decision to make
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Thank you for the polite words but that one is the most egregious example of the uphill skier being in the wrong. Everyone has a right to use a piste that they can safely negotiate, moreover everyone has a right to learn how to do so. No one has the right to hold their line down a piste and expect others in front to accommodate them.
That piste isn't even crowded: there are six people who are potentially involved in that incident: the idiot, the instructor, the student in red, the second student in black and two people higher up on either side. There are three somewhat further down who are not involved. The piste is relatively narrow, perhaps 30m. The instructor and students are skiing slowly and predictably; the other two are quickly out of the picture, presumably because they are skiing slowly.
It's very hard to judge the speed of the idiot without knowing the focal length of the camera and doing a lot of calculations with a wide margin of error, but he overtakes the second student in a second and I think it's safe to say he's at least 10ms⁻¹ (22mph) faster than the skiers around him.
One second later, the idiot is facing almost straight down the slope at point between the instructor who has just turned and the first student following closely behind. The idiot now has the choice of going to either side of the piste, although going right passing behind the first student will cut in front of the second so he should to go left, wait until the first student turns right then go straight on. Instead he carries on and one second later he crosses immediately in front of the student.
It's inexcusable and indefensible. Using this to justify whatever you are trying to justify is as ridiculous is the idiot's defence, which (insofar as I understood it) was that the student should have looked uphill and avoided the idiot.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 28-02-24 18:49; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ski3 wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
@Pyramus, Maybe I am confusing you with someone else, but are you not the guy that likes to "pop in" to your kids lessons?
Regardless you could just ask your kids' ski instructors how they go about teaching slope safety. I am sure they will be able to reassure you, and equally sure that it will have been integrated into the (many) lessons you have taken yourself. You clearly have not really noticed, but that is often the way with good teaching. |
Well, why don't you make a valid contribution to define / quantify exactly what is relayed to students in ski school training, that's relevant to piste safety specifically. |
Because there is no need, and I don't feel the need to justify myself to you or anyone else for that matter.
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@tsgsh, ok I guess we have to agree to disagree. But you refer to "the idiot" (the guy with the camera), but if you watch after the incident, 95% of people on that slope are skiing in a similar fashion, that is, "straight lining" down that section of piste, you can see them all zooming past them and at a fairly fast pace. If it wasn't camera guy having the very near miss, it could very easily have been most of other people on that slope depending on the exact timing of their turn. So are all the other people on that slope idiots? It just happened to be camera guy that got caught up in it (by the way, I am not saying camera guy doesn't have any blame at all, I think it's a combination of factors).
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@Pyramus, what, in your view, should an instructor do with pupils on a narrowish slope? Point straight downhill? If you find yourself on a slope behind a slow ski school group it is normal to slow down, watch for a bit and choose a safe moment to pass them. An alternative, if that's difficult, might be to follow them and learn about nice S-shaped turns. 
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| @tsgsh, ok I guess we have to agree to disagree. But you refer to "the idiot" (the guy with the camera), but if you watch after the incident, 95% of people on that slope are skiing in a similar fashion, that is, "straight lining" down that section of piste, you can see them all zooming past them and at a fairly fast pace. If it wasn't camera guy having the very near miss, it could very easily have been most of other people on that slope depending on the exact timing of their turn. So are all the other people on that slope idiots? It just happened to be camera guy that got caught up in it (by the way, I am not saying camera guy doesn't have any blame at all, I think it's a combination of factors). |
What video is being discussed here? I don't see it anywhere!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Origen wrote: |
| @Pyramus, what, in your view, should an instructor do with pupils on a narrowish slope? |
To be honest with the way they were skiing, it's almost as if they were at nursery slope stage and they shouldn't have even been on that slope. Literally, slow snowplough turns amongst lots of clearly more experienced skiers. If they are that much of a beginner, stick to the nursery slopes or at least avoid narrow(ish) busy pistes until they are more capable. If not, either accept the increased risk of collisions occurring, or alternatively accept more responsibility for the monoeuvres you choose to make and don't rely on Rule 2 to avoid unnecessary visits to hospital.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| @tsgsh, ok I guess we have to agree to disagree. But you refer to "the idiot" (the guy with the camera), but if you watch after the incident, 95% of people on that slope are skiing in a similar fashion. |
No, they aren't because they aren't (almost) skiing into other people. It really is that simple.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That's purely a matter of timing imo. It could easily have happened to plenty of others on that piste, not because they were skiing any differently or any more cautiously than camera guy.
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OFFS, one idiot makes no attempt to avoid a collision and you assume that no one else would have either. You have convinced me you were trolling all along. Away an' bile yer heid!
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You know it makes sense.
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@Pyramus, Both videos are clear as day. You seem to want to blame instructors, slower skiers, those learning. But not the skier coming from behind. Or yourself.
If you ski with the attitude that you display in your musings here, you are a danger to yourself and others. To the extent that I would offer you a free session to focus on properly understanding how to ski safely.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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A week before the collision which I began this thread with I had a similar "coming together" as on the video now being discussed again.
Gente wide blue, I was overtaking a skier 10m ahead and slightly to my left with me going about 20% faster than him, both of us going pretty straight through a flat section. He veered right so I veered left, both by 10 degrees or so. Next thing I know a skier going 40% faster than me clattered gently into my back, turns back to look at me and raises both palms in a gesture as if to say "wtf do you think you're doing?" Cheeky git I thought. He then launches into four tight carves as he drops into a steeper section to prove he is a hot skier (which he was) and therefore not to blame.
I must emphasise here that I wouldn't even describe my veer to the left as a turn.
Anyway, back to my injury. Still very painful, especially in morning so went into Troyes hospital yesterday, took X rays but diagnosed muscle injury so now on Tramodol and Nsaid cream.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hope you recover soon @BoardieK,
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Pyramus, there’s a huge drive in Morzine/PDS to improve teaching about piste safety to kids: https://pistexcode.org/
They had a slot on Ski Sunday and trying to roll out to other resorts too. Clearly some in the industry share your view.
@BoardieK, wish you a quick recovery.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Much less painful this morning for the first time, feeling happy about that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| abricotine wrote: |
@Pyramus, there’s a huge drive in Morzine/PDS to improve teaching about piste safety to kids: https://pistexcode.org/
They had a slot on Ski Sunday and trying to roll out to other resorts too. Clearly some in the industry share your view.
@BoardieK, wish you a quick recovery. |
Great to hear, wasn't aware. It's a shame it takes the loss of a girls life for some people to wake up and realise a lot more can be done to teach kids this sort of stuff.
Clearly there's a lot more work to be done, based on the general opinions I've heard on this forum, tbh (i.e. everything's fine and everyone teaches kids slope safety perfectly).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| ... based on the general opinions I've heard on this forum, tbh (i.e. everything's fine and everyone teaches kids slope safety perfectly). |
There you go, generalising again. What you've mostly heard is (a) people disagreeing with you that rules should be changed to partly absolve the skier behind from full responsibility for avoiding collisions; and (b) ski instructors telling you that they do actually teach slope safety.
This thread is about @BoardieK being injured by an out of control skier. No one thinks no improvement can be made.
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FAQ
