 Poster: A snowHead
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| zikomo wrote: |
| Last year skiing a narrow relatively steep cat-track with 4 kids in tow, we had slowed right down as there was a small kid with an instructor ahead of us. The last of my kids was overtaken by a middle-aged Brit causing that kid to have to slam on the brakes and the kid in front of him to comment that he no way would the guy have been able to avoid skiing into him if he had to slow/down or stop. Typical argument with lower intermediate level skier that he had the right to pass, we were holding him up, he was perfectly safe and knew what he was doing. My kids are all advanced skiers and the two at the back are racers, they were very clear that this guy had created a dangerous situation and clearly did not have the skills and control to do what he was attempting. And of course he had no idea that there was a small kid struggling on the track below us, who it would have been completely unacceptable to pass or even get close to. It is bad attitude, lack of awareness, and over-estimation of ability that causes most dangerous situations in my experience (like this one). |
yup. Cat tracks really should have different rules. Treat it like you would overtake a horse if you was in a car on the same track in the summer!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Like driving down the motorway, I find it best to avoid stopping on a piste. If you have to wait for slower members of your group, do that at the base of the lift. Better that than having a bunch of skiers all hitting the brakes at the same time on a piste. It's a bad idea on a road, and equally bad on a piste. I do not want to willingly make myself a stationary target.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I suspect that although I've done it plenty of times, skiing "in convoy" is no better an idea than driving in convoy.
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I recall a near incident in Mayrhofen when skiing down a very wide red (clear blue skies and perfect vis) that forked left (or straight on). A lesson group of about 12 inexperienced youngsters and an instructor was clearly visible ahead.
He (the instructor) decided to stop on the right hand (downhill) junction of the fork (obviously planning on skiing straight on). He then encouraged his group to stop…up hill of his position, which effectively sealed off the left fork, as the group lined up.
Apart from the obvious potential hazard of each skier stopping ‘above’ the other and ploughing into each other (that didn’t happen on this occasion), the tactical decision by the instructor lead to a strung out group of youngsters very quickly blocking a legitimate route.
Nothing untoward happened but some evasive manoeuvres were required…or in other words throwing myself to the ground.
I did take it upon myself to question stopping a large group uphill that essentially blocked off a piste. He just shrugged…and didn’t seem overly bothered 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I was once skiing the Steissbachtel home run in St Anton at its narrowest point at rush hour (14.55 or so) when the traffic flow was at its highest (think the M25 at its busiest except everyone was moving rather than standstill). A brain dead idiot (a British woman as it happened) stopped directly in front of me to take a selfie. I was boxed in and took her out with my hockey stop. Miraculously neither of us were injured. She threatened to call the police invoking the usual Skier above-must -give-way-rule, which was presumably the only one she had heard of…I pointed out somewhat firmly that FIS Rules 7 &1 require a skier who stops, to do so with consideration for others & NOT at the narrowest point of the busiest piste in Austria if not the whole of Europe…and I left then left her to it…
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Fwiw
FiS Regel 1
Jeder Ski/Snowboardfahrer muss sich so verhalten, dass er keinen anderen gefährdet oder schädigt
All (Skiers) are required to conduct themselves in a way that doesn’t endanger or damage/injure others.
FIS Regel 6
Jeder Ski/Snowboardfahrer muss es vermeiden, sich ohne Not an engeren oder unübersichtlichen Stellen einer Abfahrt aufzuhalten.
All (Skiers) must avoid stopping (unless there is an emergency) in narrow places or at blind spots on a run.
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I just wish that people would respect that Blue and Green slopes are likely to have either beginners or nervous intermediates on them and SLOW down - there are plenty of other slopes that the speed merchants surely would find more exciting anyway?
I used to be able to ski Red and some Blacks, but since having 2 new hips and being nearly 60 I now stick to Blues and Easy reds - and I get very anxious when other skiers are flying past me or I can hear a snowboarder scraping down behind me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I never stop other than at the base of the lift. That said, if one must stop, then always far over to the absolute side.
ps: If you want to improve your skiing, never stop...... Ski without stopping from top to bottom. In other newz............
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| Death2PC wrote: |
I never stop other than at the base of the lift. That said, if one must stop, then always far over to the absolute side.
ps: If you want to improve your skiing, never stop...... Ski without stopping from top to bottom. In other newz............ |
I'd far rather have someone without crippling lactic acid in their legs when they have to avoid me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If anyone stops in the middle of the piste, they should be immediately deported and banned from stepping foot on any mountain. If they stop in the middle of a piste on a crest then their house should be burned down too!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Disaster wrote: |
| If anyone stops in the middle of the piste, they should be immediately deported and banned from stepping foot on any mountain. If they stop in the middle of a piste on a crest then their house should be burned down too!!! |
Hanging's too good for 'em!
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| Death2PC wrote: |
| I never stop other than at the base of the lift. |
I'm calling BS
| Death2PC wrote: |
| If you want to improve your skiing, never stop |
Talk us through the logic of that one
I would say welcome to SH but your username and first posts suggests that would be inappropriate.
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You know it makes sense.
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Here we go with the usual exceptions and reasons why it’s not your fault when you collide with someone below you on the slope. Slow down and leave enough room for you to take avoiding action if someone below you does something daft. And protect yourself by not doing anything daft, like making sudden changes/stopping in congested areas/in the middle of the piste. It really is that simple.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@zikomo You said "I have never come close to skiing into someone". If you have never come close to skiing into someone, you have been lucky. Sometimes people overtake and immediately hockey stop in front of others. Sometimes people fall over in the process of overtaking others. In those scenarios, I have come close to skiing into people.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Noob921 wrote: |
| @zikomo You said "I have never come close to skiing into someone". If you have never come close to skiing into someone, you have been lucky. Sometimes people overtake and immediately hockey stop in front of others. Sometimes people fall over in the process of overtaking others. In those scenarios, I have come close to skiing into people. |
Quite it always seems a strange boast implying that either the individual doesn't do much skiing or visits uniquely quiet resorts only. For instance in a snowdome at any moderately busy time there is a constant risk of skiing into someone. A homerun in a holiday week is more or less the same.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Noob921, @Dave of the Marmottes, I ski a lot. Have used snowdomes. Also been in busy resorts, although to be fair I aim for quieter areas and do a fair bit of off-piste. I am a qualified instructor. I have never skied into someone.
On my statement that “I have never come close to” I have some sympathy with your point. On reflection that is too strong a statement and also subjective. Perhaps better worded as I have never felt in danger of skiing into someone but I have certainly been close to others and had to take drastic action, including exiting the piste in order to avoid something unexpected happening in front of me. I have always felt I had sufficient time/space to take that action.
I stand by my other points. Especially that I do not think it is luck that I have avoiding skiing into anyone.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Noob921 wrote: |
| @zikomo You said "I have never come close to skiing into someone". If you have never come close to skiing into someone, you have been lucky. Sometimes people overtake and immediately hockey stop in front of others. Sometimes people fall over in the process of overtaking others. In those scenarios, I have come close to skiing into people. |
When I was in the terrain park in L2A, I decided to go over the big mounds. I waited to make sure that nobody was in front, who I might ski into if they fell. The way was clear. so I headed off doing pathetically small jumps off the top (which felt huge)....and about mid way, as I launched off the top (I was getting braver), I realised that there was a Snowboarder in the dip, lying back sunning himself!!. I couldn't do anything as I was in mid air, except land on him.
Unbelievably, neither of us were hurt. He apologised, said he had fallen a while ago and decided to have a rest, as nobody was about.
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@zikomo, fair reflection.
I have never skied into anyone either but on busy pistes or odd occasions where paths just collide I've certainly got close.
The idea of course is always to build in a margin of safety and to as my father would say about driving "assume everyone else is an idiot" 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Layne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I never stop other than at the base of the lift. |
I'm calling BS ... |
Actually I almost never stop. Not quite the same thing, but in general I'll ride a run top to bottom without stopping. I find it odd that other people treat ski runs more like golf courses, places where they stop to chat every few hundred meters. Me, I want to ride the run. There's plenty of time to chin wag on the lifts. It's mostly about rhythm and flow. I also think it does help reduce risk, in that I don't have to decide where is safe to stop.
I don't stop my cycle every 2 minutes for a chat, or stop my rowing machine mid-session.
I certainly don't need to stop whilst snowboarding, which is probably the least energetic sport I do.
(Aside: the major factor in heli-boarding guide selection is to find someone who has the confidence to ride the whole run, top to bottom, without stopping.)
At a resort I do assume everyone else is a potential danger until I can ascertain they're not.
Nothing else makes sense: even sensible skiers may fall over now and then.
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@phil_w, IME. People stop mid run for a variety of valid reasons eg:
- Poor fitness levels
- Making sure the rest of the group are clear about where to go (eg. If there are multiple run/lift options)
- Skiing with family that may need help if fall - and if you are miles ahead, it's just a longer trek back to pick up the pieces.
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When skiing in a party I think most of us have had to sop for others have had to catch up - equally I've appreciated it when others have waited for me. And sometimes I just want a rest.
Other times I'll take in the view - we ski in fantastic country - the mountain is not a gymnasium.
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People stop, and people turn when you least expect it.
I turn about twice as many times as my fellow skiers, but I try to keep it regular so that those uphill can anticipate my movements.
I've only ever been wiped out once (by an out of control snowboarder) but there have been some near misses that were totally unnecessary if the other person hadn't been going so fast/close to me. I haven't wiped anyone out - I don't go fast enough to overtake most intermediates and I'm uber cautious if I am overtaking beginners cos I know how I feel about people passing me.
I think there are some people who actually take joy in scaring beginners/slow skiers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| Actually I almost never stop. Not quite the same thing, but in general I'll ride a run top to bottom without stopping. |
Perhaps depends on the length of the run. Some runs I ski are very long and if I did or tried to do them in one go my thighs would be seriously burning. Some others, shorter, quite happy to do in one. Not sure what the cut off point is.
Also there is an element of enjoyment, taking it all in.
And finally as others have said skiing in a group, route selection.
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“Look, I know these kids, I’ve worked in the areas we’re talking about. I know their problems, I know their frustrations – lack of community facilities – I know their parents… And in my opinion, Professor Duff’s suggestion that we should cut off their goolies is the only solution.”
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Given various comments about skiers behaving unpredictably, and the original question, what should one do in this scenario? Skiing consistent, fairly narrow turns in the middle of a fairly busy piste (let's say the overall width of turns is ≤ 20% of the piste width) and you need to stop. Should you stop where you are (in the middle of the piste), or change direction and ski across to the edge of the piste to stop ? I'd pretty much always do the former, and slow gradually to a stop
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@viv,it’s a very long time since I’ve been in that position, but a gradual stop wasn’t an option.
In fact the only time I’ve felt claustrophobic this century was in the Happy Valley in St Anton. Total misnomer.
Zero pleasure. Far too many wild cards.
Mature me is totally with @zikomo, here. It’s not rocket science, it’s just patience.
Immature me, and all my immature peers, used to really get a kick out of wiping out our contemporaries on Cairngorm at school ski club. Feigning a fall directly above another class as they were aligned in a column at the side of the piste became an art form. Making them fall like domino’s was the challenge. We were 13 and we were all up for it.
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Happy Valley is one place where you do have to overtake as sport otherwise it's far too traumatic.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
He apologised, said he had fallen a while ago and decided to stop and have a joint, as nobody was about.
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FIFY 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@dode,@dave of the Marmottes..agreed. Indeed, see my earlier post in this thread for the consequences of unthinkingly stopping on the Steissbachtel (aka - ironically - to Brits as “Happy Valley”) …
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Bergsteiger278, You “took someone out” on a piste and are here boasting about it and blaming it on the person you crashed into. It was clearly your fault. The skier below you on the slope was able to come to a complete stop, you were above her on the slope and found that you did not have the time and space to stop yourself or avoid her. And then fled the scene when she threatened to call the police, if you were so confident that you were in the right why would you run off like that? Sounds like a skill issue to me, as well as you skiing too fast/close to others for your ability level and the conditions. Just accept the responsibility and learn from it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@zikomo, No you're making the mistake again of placing 1 FIS rule above all the others to get on your high horse and think it allows you to determine absolute fault.
We weren't there but from my experience of skiing that run in similar conditions and the account the lady did something VERY stupid. There is such a wave of humanity on that run that it is entirely possible to be boxed in entirely and thus if someone stops suddenly they can easily cause a pile up. She may have had the benefit of the downhill skier rule but not the endanger others rule.
Lest we forget I'm not suggesting the downhill skier isn't important or excusing non following of it. But proper understanding of the code requires skiers to understand all elements of it and act accordingly. And safety requires then going beyond to defend oneself against the 10,000s of skiers everyday breaking the code.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
.
... Seppos .... |
What's a 'Seppo' ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@rayscoops, Probably an American.... Seppo , Septic tank.... Yank.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I don’t think we will ever agree completely on this point. And playing logic it does not really matter if we do. The uphill skier is at fault if they are unable to stop or take avoiding action regardless of what the downhill skier does. It is also true that all skiers should follow all the rules all of the time, and the downhill skier may also be “at fault” for not following one of those rules. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive and the uphill skier is not excused, as that rule explicitly mentions “any voluntary or involuntary movement by the downhill skier”. In short you can say both are at fault, but you cannot say that the uphill skier was not at fault.
But what is clear in this case is a skier managed to come to a complete stop. In the time it took for that skier to do so, the uphill skier was unable to stop and crashed into her. At the least the accident is only possible if the downhill skier was able to come to a stop in a much shorter distance than the uphill skier. Then by his own admission @Bergsteiger278, did a runner. It is obvious that he had a lack of awareness, lack of skill, and was skiing too fast for his ability and the conditions. And compounded this by leaving the scene of an accident. If as you say he was in the right why would be not be happy to at least exchange details or even better wait for piste patrol or police?
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I have to say FIS rules do seem somewhat in conflict, in @Bergsteiger278's example.
However, if you think of the car analogy. If I stop in a blind spot or just after a blind bend. If someone ploughs into me it would still be deemed their fault. Even if I had no good reason to stop there.
So, maybe the FIS rules should emphasise that just because rules 1 & 6 it doesn't mean that rule 2 doesn't apply.
Essentially if you going into a narrow, busy stretch of piste, you should control your speed such that if a person stops abruptly for no reason, you can control your speed sufficiently to not hit them or ski around them. More than ever it would seem logical to err on the side of caution.
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| zikomo wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, I don’t think we will ever agree completely on this point. And playing logic it does not really matter if we do. The uphill skier is at fault if they are unable to stop or take avoiding action regardless of what the downhill skier does. It is also true that all skiers should follow all the rules all of the time, and the downhill skier may also be “at fault” for not following one of those rules. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive and the uphill skier is not excused, as that rule explicitly mentions “any voluntary or involuntary movement by the downhill skier”. In short you can say both are at fault, but you cannot say that the uphill skier was not at fault.
But what is clear in this case is a skier managed to come to a complete stop. In the time it took for that skier to do so, the uphill skier was unable to stop and crashed into her. At the least the accident is only possible if the downhill skier was able to come to a stop in a much shorter distance than the uphill skier. Then by his own admission @Bergsteiger278, did a runner. It is obvious that he had a lack of awareness, lack of skill, and was skiing too fast for his ability and the conditions. And compounded this by leaving the scene of an accident. If as you say he was in the right why would be not be happy to at least exchange details or even better wait for piste patrol or police? |
No I'm fine with disagreeing on the emphasis. I think he is at fault but in the specifics of where he was trying to place undue emphasis on the downhill skier rule is unfortunately not really appropriate. Like hitting the brakes in the peloton. As for the police yeah good luck with that I'm sure they're interested in investigating each of the 100s of collisions in Happy Valley each day.
If you're in a sittuation where a huge number of people per minute are trying to funnel down a narrow squeeze then you are in a fliow and it's entirely possible to be boxed in on all 4 sides ( unless you've been fairly aggressive in deliberately positioning yourself on the flank and enforced that position). Skill doesn't particularly come into it other than to try to exploit small gaps and accelerations to get yourself in a safer position. It really is more like rollerball than open skiing so it's not a surprise that the FIS rules flake out a bit.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, as I said I think we do disagree but I don’t see why it matters really. If all skiers followed all rules all of the time there would be many less collisions. Like in this case, if the downhill skier had not stopped in a busy narrow place there would likely have been no collision. But fault by the downhill slope user (stopping somewhere dangerous, etc) does not excuse the uphill skier, as the rule governing that is specific that you must allow for any voluntary or involuntary movement. It is this aspect that seems to cause the most argument.
The poster here specifically said that they just left. The party that was skied into had every right to ask him to wait at least for piste patrol, and even more to expect to get his personal details (in fact that is a rule itself). He chose to do neither. That does not suggest to me a high confidence that he was actually in the right.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I like this quote regarding all mountain rules and behavious.
'Respect gets respect'.
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Zikomo
1. Read the FIS rules in full. There is no presumption that another rule has priority (in the circumstances which I set out) over the specific rule warning against stopping unnecessarily at a dangerous place (on an overcrowded piste as it was that day). At worst I might have been 50% at fault. Most likely the other party was mostly at fault. .
2 I left because there is no requirement under Austrian law that the police be informed of every minor collision - bearing in mind there was no injury to person or damage to gear.
3 (I also had to pick my then 3 year old daughter up from Ski School - and this being 25 years or more ago, I had no way of informing them that I might be held up for an indeterminate time.)
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FAQ
