 Poster: A snowHead
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| Scarlet wrote: |
Sounds great, bring it on 
| rayscoops wrote: |
| Even if you get in a small six man bubble only with your own household bubble, it’s just been vacated by sweaty bunch of strangers. |
No, it was vacated 10 min ago. |
well that’s ok then, not as if any one down loads or aerosols hang in the air.
Is Austria still going to run these death traps at full capacity ? #eurosoverlives ... I have read other countries are going to reduce capacity.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| adithorp wrote: |
@rayscoops, you really are a "glass is half full of covid" sort of person aren't you?
And when did being sweaty become an infection pathway?
Are you about to contrive a thousand ways to contract it in a gondola now just like you came up with then for how masks were going to spread it? |
isn’t this a concern ? aren’t you concerned ? will you be happy to take a full bubble or larger gondola ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
will you be happy to take a full bubble or larger gondola ?
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Totally.
Bring it on.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
well that’s ok then, not as if any one down loads or aerosols hang in the air.
Is Austria still going to run these death traps at full capacity ? #eurosoverlives ... I have read other countries are going to reduce capacity. |
Pretty much no-one downloads. Windows open, airflow straight through on the way down, kein Problem.*
They've been running all summer. Okay, use is low on the gondolas, but not on the buses which are running as usual like sardine cans. No-one died**
*For the avoidance of doubt, I know @rayscoops is a troll, but I wouldn't want his daft arguments influencing others.
** Okay, one person died. But I have no idea if they had been on a bus or gondola.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Scarlet, I'm not sure if he's really trolling, but he certainly has a penchant for click bait language. "death traps" - really? WTAFFF?
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@Scarlet, warm weather, windows open, bright sunshine, half full type of running all summer ... the winter is going to be a completely different cup of tea ... do you really think people are going to open windows in howling winds at -10 degrees ?
My post was very much tongue in cheek but I believe it is a serious concern.
Yes ski resorts run all summer, but infections also increased at the same time following this.
It is a fact that the greater the interaction between people and the closer the interaction, then the greater the likelihood that more Covid cases will occur.
Personally if I get to go boarding I will take chair lifts as a preference, but not jump in full ski buses and maybe take a gondola if it is half empty.
If you can put aside your personal rancour maybe there is an issue to debate regarding how ski resorts will manage the hoards that will be arriving and the facilities that will utilised - ‘service as usual’ and full capacity lifts does not seem viable.
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@rayscoops you say a gondola is a death trap - but then you will take one if it’s half empty?
Dialling down the hyperbole makes it easier to have a sensible discussion.
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There isn't an issue to debate. You just want to stir up shite.
Everyone knows that gondolas could well be problematic (cable cars even worse) and resorts where they form a major part of the uplift could present problems. What they don't know in any given resort is how many people will be visiting and hence how crowded it will be necessary for gondolas to be.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@rayscoops, Let's begin with the adage “well, I wouldn't start from here”, and indeed, we are not.
| Quote: |
| the winter is going to be a completely different cup of tea ... do you really think people are going to open windows in howling winds at -10 degrees ? |
Nope. They'll stay at home or in their accommodation. Ever been out in proper weather? What is noticeable is how quiet it is, how you can lap fresh powder on the piste all afternoon with no competition. Even I hate going out in a gale.
| Quote: |
| Yes ski resorts run all summer, but infections also increased at the same time following this. |
Correlation is not causation. The two are unrelated.
| Quote: |
| If you can put aside your personal rancour maybe there is an issue to debate regarding how ski resorts will manage the hoards that will be arriving and the facilities that will utilised - ‘service as usual’ and full capacity lifts does not seem viable. |
You've missed the bit about resorts threatening not to open because of the lack of tourists then? I suspect many hotels will stay shut up all winter, and it will generally be quite quiet compared to usual.
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@Scarlet, I have spent the last two seasons living in a ski resort and understand the dynamics. People may not be flying in but they will be arriving by car from neighbouring countries or even from U.K., the market will change and maybe some small resorts (or perhaps best to call them mountains) may not open because it may not be financially viable, but I expect/hope (for those that rely upon it) most large resorts will be open.
Which resorts have stated they will not open, Axamer Lizum? any others ?
This is all a wider concern, but the issue I have raised is full gondolas etc, which would be a real concern for me personally, maybe I am being a bit sensitive about it and it would not be a concern for you or others ? Personally I would not be happy retuning home and interacting with elderly family members if I had just spent a week riding ski buses and gondolas.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Can't wait for Stanton to post..........
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Data from March 2020 would suggest that the vast majority of cases of Covid transmission in ski areas were from prolonged indoor close contact in bars and accommodation. More recent data would also suggest that prolonged indoor close contact is responsible for virus transmission. There doesn't yet seem to be any evidence of transmission outdoors or from using shops and public transport where contact would be very short term and using masks.
So armed with this data I shall carry on using the train to go to and from work, and equally use whatever lifts I want to for skiing. I avoid getting close enough to people for them to breathe directly on me, and I especially keep clear of smokers. I tend to avoid peak areas/weeks so no issues with crowds and queuing. Plus I suspect that might not be an issue this season anyway.
All good. Let's not keep feeding the troll(s).
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| This is all a wider concern, but the issue I have raised is full gondolas etc, which would be a real concern for me personally, maybe I am being a bit sensitive about it and it would not be a concern for you or others ? Personally I would not be happy retuning home and interacting with elderly family members if I had just spent a week riding ski buses and gondolas. |
No, not really, but my circumstances are somewhat different.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@GreenDay, I believe resorts in Austria have no intention of limiting numbers at all ?
I read an article how Australia managed their ski season and it was most encouraging, but did limit numbers etc
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Poster: A snowHead
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Absolutely 100% no issue with it whatsoever. It's time we learned to take sensible precautions and just get on with living our lives.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| GottaCatchEmAll wrote: |
| Absolutely 100% no issue with it whatsoever. It's time we learned to take sensible precautions and just get on with living our lives. |
What are those sensible precautions when it comes to skiing?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@abc, don't wear cotton underwear.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I may stand to be corrected by data - but a big part of me believes the biggest problem we have is cultural in preventing us to continue to live our daily lives and bring back normality.
It appears that the western world has not (in practice) grasped or understood the impact of breaking the chain of transmission.
| Quote: |
Asians proactively protect one another from disease and trust government officials, who in turn take seriously the risk of respiratory disease spilling over from China
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There are still Dickheads who are walking into my local supermarket, or on the tube, or elsewhere in public not wearing masks or having their nose hang out. If you try to challenge them you achieve nothing - you actually put yourself more at risk by them coming into your personal space and looking for a fight!
It is the selfish behavior, ignorance or stupidity what ever you want to call it that is harming us.
On a BA flight two weeks back there were countless examples of people not wearing masks and just sipping on drinks for the duration of the flight, it is this selfish behaviour that is part of the problem - then we complain when the economy gets shut down or hospitals get overwhelmed and others cant get routine treatment. If you dont believe that this is an issue United Airlines have updated their policy to close this loophole
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The vast majority of our customers are complying with the face covering policy. This is just one more step toward ensuring customer and crew safety by allowing customers who are eating and drinking to remove their face masks — but they need to immediately put it back on when they’re done.
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Simply put I would trust more those around me in a Gondola or any other enclosed space in Asia than in Europe - simply put because they follow the rules and respect each other.
If people demonstrated this group effort and willingness to comply in Europe we would be in a much better place.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@GottaCatchEmAll, sounds like a sensible precaution would be to avoid you!
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@LaForet, agree, and I suspect this season I won't be the only person to stay at the door and physically prevent this from happening. The one day I've skied during the pandemic (April) the lifties were definitely more in control than usual. This will be necessary to reeducate people and prevent brawls. Some behaviors that used to be for the common good, like filling empty seats in lifts to move folks along, are now harmful. Damn!
Fortunately for some of us, in North America gondolas are comparatively rare. Places like Kronplatz, where they have 23 of 'em, will have to get good at this right away,
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| Layne wrote: |
| Isn't the guidance you are OK if in close proximity for less than 15 minutes? |
There's nothing magic about 15 minutes - it's an arbitrary line to split low risk / high risk groups.
Imagine you were in a situation where there was a 0.1% chance of infection every minute (numbers made up to make the example simple).
If you're in that situation for 1 minute, there's a 0.1% chance that you were infected. You almost certainly haven't been infected, so there isn't much value in testing you or asking you to isolate.
If you're in the same situation for 10 minutes, it's a 1% chance that you were infected. Still pretty unlikely.
If you're in the same situation for 100 minutes, it's a 10% chance. Better play it safe and assume you're infected unless a test shows otherwise.
If you're in the same situation 10 times, for 10 minutes each time, it's a 10% chance.
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@extremerob, I think there are truths in your statements about behaviours, but I'm not entirely convinced that these then play onto reducing viral spread.
E.g. from what I understand, one is extremely unlucky to catch anything by breathing aircraft air, due to the frequency of it being refreshed and filtering. So sipping drinks quietly throughout a flight is Very Low Risk Behaviour.
Flipside, not wearing a mask on a crowded tube train seems thoughtless, per random individuals who may or may not be infectious. And as many of those on crowded tubes have no choice but to be there, then a minor personal discomfort, for a limited period is a fair price to pay for a societal benefit.
But I am afraid that at least in the UK, you are caught between a perfect storm of somewhat individually minded society and a government with absolutely no capability for developing and communicating a sensible, coherent, consistent policy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
E.g. from what I understand, one is extremely unlucky to catch anything by breathing aircraft air, due to the frequency of it being refreshed and filtering. So sipping drinks quietly throughout a flight is Very Low Risk Behaviour.. |
“Health officials say seven people from three different parties on Tui flight 6215 from Zante to Cardiff on Tuesday have tested positive for Covid-19.“
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-53966897
“It comes after at least 16 people tested positive following a TUI flight from Zante to Cardiff Airport last week, where some claimed passengers were not following Covid-19 rules.”
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-53984808
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| under a new name wrote: |
| .. But I am afraid that at least in the UK, you are caught between a perfect storm of somewhat individually minded society and a government with absolutely no capability for developing and communicating a sensible, coherent, consistent policy. |
"Incompetent" is perhaps a more concise way of describing our lot.
I don't think UK society is actually "individually minded"; they do pretty much what they're told.
As evidence take Europe, which wasn't an issue for our "individually minded" populace for decades until they were told that it was an issue...
I do like the idea that they should refuse to be told how to behave, for example when picking which side of the road to drive on. Bring it on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
E.g. from what I understand, one is extremely unlucky to catch anything by breathing aircraft air, due to the frequency of it being refreshed and filtering. So sipping drinks quietly throughout a flight is Very Low Risk Behaviour.. |
“Health officials say seven people from three different parties on Tui flight 6215 from Zante to Cardiff on Tuesday have tested positive for Covid-19.“
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-53966897
“It comes after at least 16 people tested positive following a TUI flight from Zante to Cardiff Airport last week, where some claimed passengers were not following Covid-19 rules.”
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-53984808 |
They had all caught it before the flights, the flights were nothing to do with it, also a few of them came home and then went on pub crawls. Most of the Welsh spikes are linked to tw*ts going abroad in the summer catching COVID instead of the normal STDs, coming home and going on pub crawls or hosting house parties.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rayscoops, I think the behaviour on a TUI flight from Zante is likely to be quite different from a BA flight to or from anywhere.
@philwig, why use one word when more are merrier? Hmmm. A very good point. I am clearly mistaking "independent thinking" for "looking at the pictures in the Daily Mail".
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| I think the behaviour on a TUI flight from Zante is likely to be quite different from a BA flight to or from anywhere. |
Why? In what way would it be different? I usually behave the same on any flight. I don't discriminate by airline or destination.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I remember reading about the behaviour on those flights and being quite surprised, most not wearing masks etc; it was very different from my experience returning from Zurich on BA that same week
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Poster: A snowHead
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| thelem wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| Isn't the guidance you are OK if in close proximity for less than 15 minutes? |
There's nothing magic about 15 minutes - it's an arbitrary line to split low risk / high risk groups.
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OK, let me rephrase "Isn't the guidance that if you are in close proximity for less than 15 minutes the risk is low?"
The point being of course most gondola rides are less than 15 minutes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There is little evidence around the specifics of infection in a typical 4/6 seater télécabine, unfortunately. All I have come across is recent research by the German and Chinese railways, looking at infections on train journeys based on highly effective (i.e. not like the UK) track & trace. Neither study could find any evidence of infections during shorter train journeys, which they defined as under 8 hours duration. Now, you could take the view that 'They would say that, wouldn't they?' but it'd be really helpful if the European resort operators actually commissioned some research into this. Because at the moment it must be one of the biggest factors putting people off. But perhaps they have? It'd be interesting to know.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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IATA published an article two days ago claiming that transmission is also low in aircraft:
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“The risk of a passenger contracting COVID-19 while onboard appears very low. With only 44 identified potential cases of flight-related transmission among 1.2 billion travelers, that’s one case for every 27 million travelers. We recognize that this may be an underestimate but even if 90% of the cases were un-reported, it would be one case for every 2.7 million travelers. We think these figures are extremely reassuring. Furthermore, the vast majority of published cases occurred before the wearing of face coverings inflight became widespread,” said Dr. David Powell, IATA’s Medical Advisor.
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https://www.iata.org/en/pressroom/pr/2020-09-08-012/
Which makes you wonder - is this the proof that masks really do work - and then makes you think how did over a 1000 students get it at Newcastle University in a week when its 1 in 27 million air passengers or even the more conservative number of 1 in 2.7 million passengers that risk transmission.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| thelem wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| Isn't the guidance you are OK if in close proximity for less than 15 minutes? |
There's nothing magic about 15 minutes - it's an arbitrary line to split low risk / high risk groups.
Imagine you were in a situation where there was a 0.1% chance of infection every minute (numbers made up to make the example simple).
If you're in that situation for 1 minute, there's a 0.1% chance that you were infected. You almost certainly haven't been infected, so there isn't much value in testing you or asking you to isolate.
If you're in the same situation for 10 minutes, it's a 1% chance that you were infected. Still pretty unlikely.
If you're in the same situation for 100 minutes, it's a 10% chance. Better play it safe and assume you're infected unless a test shows otherwise.
If you're in the same situation 10 times, for 10 minutes each time, it's a 10% chance. |
Don’t think that’s how it works. Would it be 100% chance if you spent 10 minutes 100 times? Don’t think so.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@extremerob, Hmmmm, I think it's more proof that replacing the air as often as an aircraft does and carefully filtering the stuff you haven't yet replaced is very effective. There are almost certainly some complicated statistical effects at work as well.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| All I have come across is recent research by the German and Chinese railways, looking at infections on train journeys based on highly effective (i.e. not like the UK) track & trace. Neither study could find any evidence of infections during shorter train journeys, which they defined as under 8 hours duration. |
Something doesn’t add up.
If stuck on trains for 8 hours doesn’t catch the virus, where else do people catch it??? How does the virus jump from one family to another if 8 hours in a confine space doesn’t do it??? Keep in mind even most offices are bigger than a train carriage, and workers are typically only there for no more than 8 hours, with lunch break outside. Yet there were documented outbreaks related to workers in offices. Even diners in a restaurant for under 2 hours! Yet there’s something magical about trains that prevents infection???
Further more, during the height of the outbreak in New York, something like 30-40% of transit workers (bus drivers, train conductors) got infected. How did they get infected? Outside of work, but just by coincidence they all happened to be working in buses and subway trains?
Again in Hong Kong, flight crews and airport workers had an elevated infection rate compare to the general population. Wonder what kind of coincidence that was?
The skeptical side of me suspects, the reason they find “no evidence of infection” has more to do with the inability to track down the passengers, whom unlike transit workers and chorus groups, don’t stay in the same place long enough to be found and tested.
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It coulddn't possibly be that train companies looking a train jourrneys, or IATA looking at planes, have any sort of vested interest! 
Depends very much on which journeys they looked at. The last time I was on a train in China, for about 4 hours, there were very few other people in the carriage, so on that service it wouldn't be surprising if transmission rates were low. And I could find 1 hour journeys in this country which would be similarly thinly populated.
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I wouldn’t go so far to accuse the train companies and airlines deliberately manipulated data. But I wouldn’t be too surprised they did NOT try very hard to track down ALL the passengers who might be infected. It just so happens it’s in their vested interest to “lost track” of a large number of passengers as they disperse into all corners of the world.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@abc, I think what you are describing is the heterogeneity of infectiousness. A choir belting out "Zadok, The Priest" is far more likely to spread virions than a sleepy traveller nodding off quietly in seat 23A.
I don't find the IATA/etc. data at all surprising.
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My point was not that I believed in the objectivity of the train analysis, but that it would be good if the Alpine lift companies commissioned something that would reassure prospective visitors: some research specific to 4/6-person télécabines. Remember the research about singing? There were lots of theories about choirs etc. but it took a few months of systematic experiments specific to singing to get reliable results.
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FAQ
