 Poster: A snowHead
|
As somebody who learned most of the old school methods, my interpretation of Counter Rotation, is much as Rob described when he said, "And counter rotation is when you sort of "wind up" your upper body in advance of the turn, quite an old school term and technique." This advance twisting, put your body under torque, which aided the turning of the skis, as your legs tried to catch up with upper body (after unweighting)...ie. like twisting a piece of rubber and then letting it go.
The only time I use a version of this, is when I'm skiing a very steep, narrow gully and slowly doing one turn at a time. In this scenario, I twist my upper body and plant the pole behind my heels and well down the slope. This aids getting the skis round, especially with a small jump of the heels.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 25-11-16 19:37; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@Tim Heeney, The reason I asked is that different terms can mean different things to different people.
What I would call rotary separation is keeping the upper body still while the skis are steered around the turn. It's good thing to do in some situations, such as performance short radius turns down the fall line, or narrow, steep terrain. Sometimes described as "keep your chest down the valley".
What I would call counter is when the upper body and hips face slightly to the outside of the turn, to enable more angulation and bigger ski angles. The more forces you are generating in the turn the more you can counter.
What I would call counter rotation is when you actively twist the upper body (towards the end of the turn) in the opposite direction to the way the skis are turning, in anticipation of starting the next turn. You sort of store up a twisting force by virtue of the active counter rotation, and then release this, perhaps with quite a pronounced pop at transition. Your skis get a bit light, and the stored twisting force is released and helps steer the skis in to the new turn. It's old school and predates 'carving' skis. I'd say pretty limited application these days.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
What I would call counter rotation is when you actively twist the upper body (towards the end of the turn) in the opposite direction to the way the skis are turning, in anticipation of starting the next turn. You sort of store up a twisting force by virtue of the active counter rotation, and then release this, perhaps with quite a pronounced pop at transition. |
Now that you mention it, "Anticipation" was the more modern term for it.....and even that term is probably out of date as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Now that you mention it, "Anticipation" was the more modern term for it.....and even that term is probably out of date as well. |
Yes, that's right. Very steep terrain, typically narrow, terrain where I think a technique like that has any application, and even then I'm not sure that you would actively counter rotate in anticipation of the new turn. Would pole planting at/behind your heels achieve the same thing, without the complication of trying to actively twist your upper body at a time when there is a lot of other stuff going on because of the challenge of the terrain?
I think that when counter rotation was being taught it was a way of turning that should be done at all times, on all terrain. That has definitely changed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@rob@rar, in bumps?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @rob@rar, in bumps? |
Not sure, do you actively rotate your upper body in the opposite direction to your skis, or do you try to keep your upper body still and let your legs do all the work?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@rob@rar, more that you extend your pole planting arm out contra turn to pre-tense your core thus helping the skis to rotate on top of the bump
.?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
@rob@rar, more that you extend your pole planting arm out contra turn to pre-tense your core thus helping the skis to rotate on top of the bump
.? |
Yes, know what you're saying, I think to a certain extent it's a spectrum of movements with rotational separation at one end, and active counter rotation at the other end. I probably wouldn't call what you're describing as counter rotation, more like great rotational separation. But maybe we're in to semantics, which is why I asked if everyone could describe what they mean when using these terms?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Would pole planting at/behind your heels achieve the same thing, without the complication of trying to actively twist your upper body at a time when there is a lot of other stuff going on because of the challenge of the terrain? |
Yes, planting your pole at/behind your heels, means you are automatically skiing with anticipation....and planting the pole well downhill, forces you to commit downhill to the turn. But I emphasize again, this only makes sense on a very steep, off-piste gully, where you are virtually doing one jump turn at a time and briefly pausing. It can be so steep that you have to jump off the uphill ski, as the downhill one is too straight to give enough upward thrust.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ah, nomenclature!
Ron LeMaster in Ultimate Skiing (updated version of the Skiers Edge) writes about Countering and Counterrotation and also Anticipation - which he differentiates from the two counter.. words.
Here's what he says:
| On Countering: Ron LeMaster wrote: |
Viewed in the transverse plane, a good skier's pelvis and torse won't generally face exactly in the direction the skis are pointing when the skier is in a turn. Instead they'll be rotated about the balance axis toward the outside of the turn
Ultimate Skiing p.73
|
| On Counter Rotation: Ron LeMaster wrote: |
Counterrotation is a mechanism for turning the skis when they're free of the snow, or nearly flat on it. by rotating the upper body in one direction, the legs and skis naturally turn in the other direction...
This skier uses conterrotation to turn his skis as he grinds this rail. He prepares by winding up his upper body in the direction he wants his skis to turn; then, once his skis are in the air and there's no resistance to their turning, he quickly twists his upper body in the opposite direction...
Ultimate Skiing p.119
|
| On Anticipation: Ron LeMaster wrote: |
Anticipation, also known as windup-release, is a technique used mostly in linked short radius turns...
From the fall line to the end of the turn, your legs wind up under your torso, which continues to face more or less down the fall line...
When the skis disengage from the snow, either via unweighting or flattening as they change edges, those stretched muscles seek to shorten, realigning your legs with your upper body. A blocking pole plant... is usually used to stabilize the upper body...
Ultimate Skiing p.109
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@Tubaski, good quotes. Ron's always a great technical reference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I actually think I'm muddling anticipation and counter rotation.
Counter rotation actually goes way back according to Lito Tejada-Flores, when he says, "From the 50s on, bindings finally held skiers heels down effectively, although racers used to add about five feet of leather strapping just to make sure. In the eastern Alps Austrian, German and Swiss skiers took advantage of this new connection between heel and ski to turn with “heel thrust” (or Fersenschub). They were really twisting their trunks one way, while pushing their feet out in the opposite direction. We Americans, profoundly influenced by a generation of imported Austrian ski pros, called it counter rotation"
ie. Twisting the torso and legs in opposite directions, making use of Newton's law of action and reaction.
Anticipation is turning the upper body towards the direction of the new turn (in preparation for that turn) , loading up the "coiled spring" with stored energy.....which is then used to initiate the new turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Old Fartbag, I agree.
Counter rotation on the left, anticipation/rotary separation on the right:
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
@musher, ha, Ha, HA, i wouldn't say there isn't theory behind their words. From just looking around in these ski domes i see quite a few BASI 1's ( not all by any means...)just going through the motions of technique A,B,C etc. I don't see many actually picking out the major flaw the client has ( especially in groups ) and concentrating drills on counteracting the deficiency . It is my view that the base level of instructor should be a BASI 1.5 or 2 . These guys demonstrate the drill better, have a clearer or refined skill set and thus a better 'eye' to spot problems IMO.
Mostly when i go on these ski improvement courses, i end up concluding, ' Why the hell did i do that!'
I'm totally hopeless at standing around listening to instructor 'chit chat'.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@Old Fartbag, @rob@rar, gotcha!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Tim Heeney wrote: |
I wouldn't say there isn't theory behind their words
|
Neither would I, hence the  . I just don't understand the words.
rob@rar That's the knees/cheeks clenched mincing I was thinking of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Legs too close together.
Just sayin...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
