Should i counter rotate my upper body when turning ?
Some instructors teaches it, some don't. Is it old school to counter rotate, like lifting up the poles and watching the valley in between the poles at all time.
It looks kind of stupid traversing sideways.
Still a backseater but trying to improve.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Welcome to snowheads!
There's a big difference between actively counter rotating, and just keeping the upper body still (e.g. facing down the hill) so it doesn't rotate with the legs and skis. Most instructors I know would encourage the latter, but it's a lot more appropriate for rapid turns in a narrow corridor than it is for a turn with any kind of traverse in as you say. If you're doing big wide carved turns then there would be very little need/point in having your upper body rotated relative to your lower body, unless you're skiing at a very high level.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@BackSeater, I love the user name. Made me giggle.
If I were you I'd forget about the idea of counter rotation completely and just focus on what Darren Turner teaches on the elate media ski school channel on youtube.
PS. If you want to know about his views on Counter Rotation watch his ' Seven deadly sins' video http://youtube.com/v/n19QmFC2qVc
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@BackSeater, You need to turn your skis with your feet. If you are starting your turns by rotating your upper body before your feet -- then yes you probably should. If you are a backseater you'll be having some difficulty getting you skis to turn --- get your hips above you feet -- you will then be able to steer your skis at the start of the turn by using your feet.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Do you really want to be taught by someone with his kegs tucked into his boots?!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Scrumpy wrote:
Do you really want to be taught by someone with his kegs tucked into his boots?!
More concerned about "Heiling" down the green slope.
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dobby wrote:
@BackSeater, I love the user name. Made me giggle.
Thank you, I think.
I hope to change it to FormerBackSeater some day
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@BackSeater, the Sofa Ski School vid is seriously old school carving technique. It would now be considered as an "unstacked' body position which falls apart at very high speeds and steeper gradients because it relies entirely on angulation rather than inclination to create G force. That's probably a bit too technical for your level of experience so suffice to say, Darren Turner's vids are up to date and you should be following those. The other one's rubbish.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
BackSeater wrote:
Then this must be new school ?
Sort of, although he's in the backseat too much of the time, partly caused by pushing his inside ski too far forward (so when he stands on it at the start of the new turn he's balanced on his heel).
The Darren Turner videos are very good. He's a nice guy who has a great presenting style. The Sofa Ski School videos are horrible, IMO, and best avoided. If you want inspirational skiing videos take a look at the stuff being done by JF Beaulieu, Reilly McGlashan & Paul Lorenze. Great technical skiing within the realm of the realistic for recreational skiers.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@BackSeater, As others have said and recommended, the Darren Turner are ideal. They are upto date clear precise easy to understand and follow.
So I would recommend them and stick with that teaching style do not look at loads of different styles/techniques it will just confuse. You do not need information overload
As/when you improve and are confidently carving on hard reds and some blacks then you can better understand different techniques and play around with them without the risk of over complicating things.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thank you everyone.
One less thing to worry about.
"Stance is everything"
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@BackSeater,
I have to say this...the Sofa Ski School link above is really quite old and Klaus himself (his own words) has changed or evolved his style of skiing quite a lot now. He teaches ( his words) 'The Austrian System' In younger years he liked performing on Slalom skis and now prefers more GS or general type.
I have bought his latest video ( which probably diminishes myself in many of your eyes ), ' Blue to Powder ' and this 'word by word', is my review which i have posted on his website.
' Less really is more - actually, it's MUCH MUCH MORE!
Dear Klaus. I hope my title says it all... Your DVD delivers the fundamental backbone to the highest dynamic skiing imaginable to on piste skiing and beyond. I'm amazed how just a few simple drills and clear explanations have changed my skiing in an indoor dome. After a few visits and about 12 hours of practice plus watching the dvd Blue/Red Initiation and Control about 10 times (and only those - i so needed a new beginning !), i'm skiing with more precision, stability, speed and just as importantly, much less speed to with cm accuracy etc. I'm feeling better coordinated and increasingly, all of me is in harmonious sync. I'm flabbergasted how much more time i seem to have and how solid i feel, even in the variable, rucked up and lumpy indoor snow. Klaus, your tutoring is ' Simply Out-Standing ' ( is that a little skiing joke i've made? ) Thank You... ps. to anyone that listens, i will of course say, i got it all from Sofa Ski School. '
So that was what i posted just a few days ago and i want nobody reading this to doubt it.
This video got my ski juices flowing... ' http://youtube.com/v/fjS-zIhiGuo ' ,if you view it note the guy on the right in the pic is Jon Ahlsen, he's a big time, world elite top trainer which among his many ski hats is trainer for BASI 4 ISTD's with NewGen - youtube him...
Agreed, Jon Ahlsen probably skis what the majority of skiers think as the 'modern' way as this style is also seen in youtube video's of Reilly McGlashan, JF Beaulieu, Sebastien Michel, Jonathan Ballou - all currently representing their national ski association, at the highest levels.
When i looked at Klaus in this video ' http://youtube.com/v/iZBh-lOT6SA ' from 2015, i saw a skier of unparalleled silky smooth powerful flow, total stability and control of his skis and his body at any speed, never looked rushed / hurried etc.
I've noticed with my skiing, if i don't get a good initiation then all else is a fight - i ski at Hemel, get it wrong in the first couple of turns and it's time to go back up again and again and again. Not really the best of practice. I've noticed that with a good 'up and forward direction' i get an earlier control and generally i have a better turn outcome but speed pick up undoes my flow within a few turns - more unhappiness.
So, as i said i ski at Hemel - with this notion that a good 'up and forward direction' helps me, i been looking around and frankly trying to mimic a few of the coaches i'm envious of their control (no names - but various ski association trainers and ex national racers). Nonetheless, with all my mimicking, it all kept getting away from me...
So, in viewing Klaus's 2015 Treble Cone video's and noticing his really significant 'forward' motion at initiation ( which looked at first to be a bit extreme !) i became mesmerised by the control, power, smoothness etc. so i bought 'Blue to Powder' just to see what he says... I've had the DVD for 2 weeks now and been at Hemel practicing as i said earlier in the above online review.
Frankly i don't care if i don't ski the BASI or any other associations current 'way'. What i do care about above all else is the sensations i get from the actions i make and the best outcomes. For me ( you might, with all right, be very different) in doing exactly what he teaches has made me feel literally joyous and all for about £30
So last Tuesday a BASI 4 ISTD said to me on the slope, Hi Tim , how are you? ' I said 'Really Happy' , he said ' Oh, not just happy, but REALLY happy !' - Yep!
What the DVD has done for me is to TUNE UP my 1, Initiation 2, Control Phase and critically my 3, Transition, setting me up for another best possible 1, Initiation etc. I've gone back to the very beginning and re built all the turn phases up again and it's been a real eye opener. I expect to be able to bring what i've learnt into any of the various 'main stream' ski association 'systems' or just ski my new way, with a bit of all in the mix except never forgetting my new friends 'the above 1,2,3'.
There are pages and pages of reviews on his website ' http://www.sofaskischool.com/reviews/ '. I didn't read any of them before i purchased 'Blue to Powder' and now i add mine to the long list of others...
Not wanting to disrespect any teaching associations nor any instructors nor any skiers either.
I hope i haven't broken any SH posting rules either.
Happy skiing all.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
BackSeater wrote:
I have been watching Darren Turner.
But others recommend it. Is there a right or wrong here or is it just different styles.
I have two friends who do work for Sofa ski school and are solid ski teachers, just wish they would delete this early video and a few others... appalling...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
This is a really interesting insight, I remember seeing this video about four years ago when I was even more clueless than I am now and being totally blown away by it (carving) as a possibility and trying to emulate his stroking the snow thing whilst zipping around in a big circle - even relatively recently.
I think I can tell why this is seen as bad technique compared to Darren Turner et. al. but may well have taken some of the angulation too much to heart...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Pynch, you get the feel of it, you do it more and more, then, Oops! Perfectly normal human behavior...
@Pynch, That video was originally posted in 2007 i think. Ski teaching moves on and varies from nation to nation and also from whether you come from a racing background or brought up through the national ski instruction association.
For me, the best part of obeying and doing what the DVD says is the ability to practice the drill until its embedded into your skiing and revisit that drill time upon time until the confidence is really strong in it. What i've determined is i really needed much better turn control - what i've seen is the best trainers have a very controlled turn initiation, unable to do this myself properly and also getting out of good control in terms of not controlling my speed well enough, nor separating / angulating the correct amount with imprecise timing etc , the very best thing i've done in years is to go completely back to the very beginning and build it all back up again in my own time.
Klaus says that his DVD is NOT to replace instruction.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Tim Heeney, to be honest my background is ridiculously varied and I'm not all that experienced having only eight weeks (I think?) under my belt.
I had pretty intensive lessons at the very beginning in Bulgaria (I'm not even sure there is a Bulgarian style..?) which I maintain has given me a great base for wider learning, but I've then had a mixture of instructors depending upon resort. I found this vid around my third week (which was in Austria) and following those lessons - and possibly vids from the sofa ski school - I did go through a distinct phase of skiing in what an Italian instructor I had later called 'Austrian'.
I was quite proud at the time to have developed a distinguishable style of any kind, but I'm fairly sure he was being insulting...
@rob@rar,
"Sort of, although he's in the backseat too much of the time, partly caused by pushing his inside ski too far forward (so when he stands on it at the start of the new turn he's balanced on his heel). "
Many thanks, this is what I'll be focusing on this season.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Pynch, Ha HA!, well he may have been just trying to be funny and not necessarily insulting - but can't say as wasn't there...
National styles are generally merging with the exception of the Asian countries - eg. Japan.
Austria IMO and i would assume ( hope more like !) most others to, has the highest precise and 'punchy' ski style. See this ' http://youtube.com/v/tEuv1Y9sET8 ' but only if you're interested.
If you're happy doing, err, what your doing - all fine here and wishing you happy fun skiing...
After all it is free
After all it is free
@BackSeater I see nothing fundamentally wrong with the older Sofa Ski School video; he is essentially talking about making the skis carve rather than skid by using the feet and legs and dropping the hips to the inside which is correct until you travel at very high speeds where you would need to add whole body inclination but this would only be when you reach a very advanced level of skiing.
With regards to counter rotation, whilst it is not something I would teach, it can be useful as a drill sometimes to help people feel the separation between the upper and lower body as well as stop people trying to turn the skis with their upper body. Therefore, I believe counter rotation may be used as a drill rather than an 'end form'. If an instructor has ever 'taught' you counter rotation then he is basically trying to encourage you to keep your upper body still and upright whilst turning your feet and legs.
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Lovely quiet upper body, dynamic legs, positive pole plant, smooth as double cream. I only discovered this video this morning and it makes me as jealous as **** and I wish I could look like that!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
.................he's in the backseat too much of the time, partly caused by pushing his inside ski too far forward.
I think we should start a new topic on this.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Mosha Marc,
We could also talk about his hip dump...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@rob@rar, Wonder how he'd look on anything remotely challenging, needs more weight forward as you say.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Best measure of whether you've really got that true Austrian Arlberg style is whether the 10 Euro note falls out from between your arsecheeks.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Dave of the Marmottes,
I was going to say his knees
Are we still OK to do a bit of counter rotation when skiing steeps or should I retire now?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@waitrose, i think you make some valid observations...
@musher, you could experiment with no counter, counter before the fall line, at the fall line and after the fall line. You could also try a little, a medium or a large amount of counter and also the speed at which you apply counter, slow or fast. As forces change upon your body during a turn due to a change of direction, it seems illogical that a preset counter position throughout the turn your ABOUT TO DO is mechanically efficient nor bodily pleasant. It is possible to modify the amount of counter and angulation to the actual FORCES YOU FEEL in the boots/shins during the turn. Absolutely, anticipate a force build up but just don't dial in a preset value before you 'feel it'. Be ready to be reactive and be ready to hit the 'sweet spot' ie the point the gives you the best grip under your feet, best rebound etc to make the best transition into the next turn sequence.
I'm saying experiment how much and when to counter. For sure listen to instructors do what they say, BUT play with around with any new sensations to hit the perfect turn - no 2 turns are ever exactly identical, close, sure - but identical no.
For the last two weeks i've been trying to keep my upperbody perpendicular (as much as i can) to the slope throughout all phases of the turn. Lets not discuss inclination, counter, angulation etc. Upper body perpendicular to slope is really important for steep slopes and for getting those skis to come around quickly so not to travel too far down the hill.
Phew...i have gone on a bit here.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 25-11-16 16:34; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Tim Heeney,
I was thinking about real steeps, so long fast turns are out for somebody my age
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
For the avoidance of doubt, what do people mean when they say "counter rotation"? AIUI there is a difference between "Counter" and "Counter Rotation".
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I was thinking chest pointing down the fall line, little legs working away like fury underneath on a steep pitch.
and counter being when your upper body is actually opened up a bit to free your hips more to allow hip angulation?
Yes, although the hips can also be in a countered position (open). And counter rotation is when you sort of "wind up" your upper body in advance of the turn, quite an old school term and technique. AIUI.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@rob@rar,
Sort of twisty mincing on 2.10 skinnies (spot the technical terms)?
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Dave of the Marmottes,
Ten Euro Note ... No!
Zwanzig Österreicher Schilling
Oder Alpin Dollar
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
My understanding of 'counter' is when my upper body is facing the outside of the turn as opposed to facing my ski direction. My understanding of 'counter rotation' is not clear, i can foresee 'counter rotation' as being a dynamic deliberate rotational action to 'check' a rotational movement in some way. Please correct / educate me as i willing to learn and interested.
FWIW, my understanding of 'angulation' is when viewing from the frontal plane, lets say upper body angulation, in a pure 'lean over', breaking at the hips with the body taking a subtle 'C' shape. In doing this, i feel increased pressure along the inside edge of the foot being lent over. There is Ankle, Knee and Hip angulation.
If i can for a moment just forget all these terms, i've been recently experimenting at building up to my strongest body position during the turn, judging it to coincide with the peak of combined gravity and centrifugal forces upon me. This dynamic action of pressure off, then on 'feels' real nice to me. Deliciously solid when you hit the 'sweet and most responsive spot'.
Rob, please say what 'counter rotation' is. Thanks and Regards.
I'm a bit behind.. i can see it above Rob.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Tim Heeney,
These instructors are just full of fancy words, some of us just go out there and do it
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
), ' Blue to Powder ' and this 'word by word', is my review which i have posted on his website.
