^ true : the technical ski level probably isn't that hard.
...however ultimately that depends if you are "skier".
most brits who are at the level for rock / ice climbing perhaps wont have spent much time skiing ? (and might find that component tough).
plus you also get assessed on rope work, navigation, glacier travel etc (which are relevant to skiing)
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 14-01-15 16:10; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Haggis_Trap, I don't see any problem combining rock climbing and skiing, it is ice climbing that will clash.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
From purely personal experience and observation I reckon skiing is the easiest of the disciplines to pass. One ski season and a couple of ski holidays a year and my skiing is in the ball park. Equivalent time committed to rock and ice climbing and I would not be anywhere near. Obviously this reflects my modest talent
Quote:
plus you also get assessed on rope work, navigation, glacier travel etc (which are relevant to skiing)
But that stuff is second nature if you are spending enough time in the mountains to achieve the right technical ability
There certainly used to be some Brit guides who were pretty mediocre skiers if you were judging them by instructors' standards; but the main thing is being able to get yourself and clients down a slope safely rather than ripping it up, and some of those slopes might give more piste-orientated instructors palpitations
on a different point, I don't think guides are necessarily more expensive than instructors. In France, the day rates were pretty similar last time I looked at it - maybe a bit higher for a Brit instructor in somewhere like Val d'Isere. In Whistler, you can get a UIAGM guide for about CAD450 per day, and you pay over CAD700 (!) for a day long private lesson with Whistler ski school (not that the instructor sees anything like that much)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Idris wrote:
there are many who have considered becoming a guide through the uk system, myself included, but have no wish to go and live in scotland for potentialy many winters to get the pre req. .
Why didn't you just do it in Cham, as you live there?
this is Cecile thomas doing the guide's ski test entrance exam. She basically did a lot of training climbing slopes in the 4.* range and then descending them as fast as possible, looking for mixed conditions.
there are many who have considered becoming a guide through the uk system, myself included, but have no wish to go and live in scotland for potentialy many winters to get the pre req. .
Why didn't you just do it in Cham, as you live there?
this is Cecile thomas doing the guide's ski test entrance exam. She basically did a lot of training climbing slopes in the 4.* range and then descending them as fast as possible, looking for mixed conditions.
I gave up the idea years ago - I did start my way though the USA system when I lived there.
But the entrance for the French system is a competition to cut down the numbers, the bar is just raised and raised until they have the correct number of entrants - I would manage the ski section but the other entrance test, whilst I could climb and run at the official required standard, I couldn't get anywhere near that which ends up being the standard on the day + on one particular entrance year (I'm told it happned at others also) as well as raising the standard form 6b/c to 7b, any fall on the test route was automatic dismissal - come back next year!
I am now one exam away form being and IML, whilst not as exiting a profesion as a Guide it is a whole lot safer and in recent years a much faster growing market in terms of client base.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Last year when I did the week long Euro Avalanche Course there were three distinct groups.
Guys like myself who were doing it to further their knowledge experience.
Professionals within the industry.
And a group of Brits aspiring to be Mountain Guides.
This latter group were looked over by Bruce Goodlad who runs the scheme as to who go forwards to train as a UIAGM guide from the UK. And they came under far more intense scrutiny that us mere punters.
On the whole they all came from a very very strong climbing background and for some skiing was defintley not a discipline that they would be proud of.
There was one who had skied with Joe Malone a fair bit (a La Grave Mountain Guide / Extreme Skier) and was in a totally different league to the others, but I don't know about his climbing CV.
Last week whilst in La Grave we came across three guys who were out early for the course and were aspiring guides, except one of them had just been helied off after doing his knee
Hopefully he's back for the course which is taking place this week.
Seem to recall there is a good article in a recent Fall Line mag as to what it takes to be a guide when from the UK.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Idris wrote:
I gave up the idea years ago - I did start my way though the USA system when I lived there.
But the entrance for the French system is a competition to cut down the numbers, the bar is just raised and raised until they have the correct number of entrants - I would manage the ski section but the other entrance test, whilst I could climb and run at the official required standard, I couldn't get anywhere near that which ends up being the standard on the day + on one particular entrance year (I'm told it happned at others also) as well as raising the standard form 6b/c to 7b, any fall on the test route was automatic dismissal - come back next year!
I am now one exam away form being and IML, whilst not as exiting a profesion as a Guide it is a whole lot safer and in recent years a much faster growing market in terms of client base.
Ok thanks, very reasonable. The French love numerus clausus. It is true there are a lot of very good climbers around. When I think of people I know starting their kids climbing (and ski touring) almost as soon as they walk you can see why. Of course, in France, if you want to climb/ski most of time the best route is a college/university lecturer or lycée teacher... (2 or 3 days work a week) or even doctor (half the doctors in Grenoble seem to take Thursdays off to ski/climb, as well as the weekend) If those professions didn't exist the competition would be even harder. If you look at skitour.fr you'll see some of the best skiers are teachers.
The IML thing is interesting, maybe reflects an ageing population. A guide friend told me that he loved Via-Ferratas. He could do two groups in a day and the risks were 99.997% manageable. He used to love doing major lines with clients, we're talking stuff that requires serious commitment from clients, but there were fewer and fewer who were interested or capable.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
For what it's worth, the avalanche safety & snow-based ropework side of the IML is significantly more in-depth than the ski instructor's exam too (having done both!).
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Arno wrote:
There certainly used to be some Brit guides who were pretty mediocre skiers if you were judging them by instructors' standards; but the main thing is being able to get yourself and clients down a slope safely rather than ripping it up, and some of those slopes might give more piste-orientated instructors palpitations
Haggis_Trap wrote:
^ true : the technical ski level probably isn't that hard.
...however ultimately that depends if you are "skier".
most brits who are at the level for rock / ice climbing perhaps wont have spent much time skiing ? (and might find that component tough).
plus you also get assessed on rope work, navigation, glacier travel etc (which are relevant to skiing)
With you both there.
If you're 'a skier' the skiing part is pretty achievable, and I assume the same applies to each of the climbing disciplines if that's what you spend all your time doing.
Having enough time/skill to get the combination of all three up the standard is what makes it so damn difficult.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Also, does anyone know if there's a way to do an avi course of a comparable level to what guides study, in Europe (pref. Austria, though I can't think if anything here)? Is the IML stuff similar? And can you do it as a standalone course, or is there a big list of pre-requisites?
Thanks
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Getting back to the topic: no more than 39 degree slopes without an UIAGM and then no instruction???
I think these rules are a bit weird.
Quote:
I don’t want any tips on my skiing and wish to explore steep slopes around Verbier such as those that can be found on the Front of Mont Gele or the Attelas couloirs.
I only ski with an UIAGM off-piste guide, I don’t need any tips on my skiing and I always carry an avalanche kit.
What about if you both want instruction and to ski steep slopes? (Like me).
I've skied steep slopes (up to about 50 degrees for a very short section and quite a bit at well over 40) both with guides- in Zermatt and la Grave and with instructors- in Flaine. Actually by far the steepest and gnarliest slopes were with instructors. (Lots of GNAR points).
Very different experiences. Particularly because of the instruction for the instructors compared to the guiding of the guides. Which is characteristic. Interestingly the Verbier rules seem to set this out with the rules and guidance setting out that clients with guides (on steeper slopes or elsewhere) wont get instruction. Which is tricky.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@clarky999, yeah some, Weathercam did one last year I think. Not entirely sure what qualification if any he came out with but if you're not badge hunting for a job then the content is all that matters.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@clarky999, as I mentioned in my post a couple above this, I did the week long Euro Avalanche Course, which is a recognized course, certification etc which I've seen on some professional ski instructor sites and which British guides have to do.
Maybe I should put my qualification in my sig to wind a few up on here
Google it and all the info is there on the site, only issue it's based in La Grave France and they only do one course a year which is this week!
Whilst great for theory, much of which I have forgotten, the practical was good, however, two days one on one with a guide just concentrating on avalanche terrain, route finding etc basically you acting like an aspirant with you leading / selecting routes would be really good.
Then I see that video of the St Foy avalanche and think no way would I have spotted that, maybe ?????
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
clarky999 wrote:
Also, does anyone know if there's a way to do an avi course of a comparable level to what guides study, in Europe (pref. Austria, though I can't think if anything here)?
^ The european avalanche course is part of the guides qualification for Brits and I think Swedes.
You can also do it as a stand alone course or use it for your BASI ISIA ski instructors badge (rather than the BASI off piste course).
It is run by Mark Diggins (head of the Scottish avalanche service) and Per As (one of Swedens top guides / trainers)
Last year when I did the week long Euro Avalanche Course there were three distinct groups.
Guys like myself who were doing it to further their knowledge experience.
Professionals within the industry.
And a group of Brits aspiring to be Mountain Guides.
This latter group were looked over by Bruce Goodlad who runs the scheme as to who go forwards to train as a UIAGM guide from the UK. And they came under far more intense scrutiny that us mere punters.
Bruce is a top guy!
Trouble is for most on here with maybe limited time to be away is it something that is worth the investment, as an awful lot of time is spent in the classroom.
For me I did not have the cost of accommodation as I drove every day over the Col to LG
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 15-01-15 10:22; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@clarky999, not quite the same but these may be worth a look if you are after something for your own knowledge rather than working towards a badge:
I did AIARE level 1 and it was very good for recreational off piste people like me; level 2 is pretty detailed as I understand it and I think it is a prerequisite for some North American guiding programs
(Just noticed that I think I am in one of the photos on the webpage - guess which one is me!)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@meh, @Weathercam, @Haggis_Trap, @Arno, thanks! I'll look into those.
I'm not really looking for a badge, I just want to get my personal knowledge up to as good as it can be. Other than learning theoretical stuff (conveniently I wrote my uni dissertation about mapping avalanche paths!) I haven't done much practical stuff since my 'gap year' course in 2008.
I did AIARE level 1 and it was very good for recreational off piste people like me; level 2 is pretty detailed as I understand it and I think it is a prerequisite for some North American guiding programs
(Just noticed that I think I am in one of the photos on the webpage - guess which one is me!)
I did the Level 2, after which you could do the first Ski Guide course - the one below aspirant ski guide - but you need AIARE level 3 to go any further in the USA system. I have been told by a few in the industry that the AIARE level 2 is more in depth than the level required in Europe, I'm hoping this is wrong, I'd like to think that any qualified guide has done more than an average backcounty enthusiast (lots of folks in the USA/Canada do a 2)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Idris, remember looking into one of the Canadian ski guide courses and you had to compile something like 50 snow profiles over the course of a winter - pretty serious stuff
@clarky999, yup! i was thinking "who's that clown in the red kecks... oh it's me"
I have been told by a few in the industry that the AIARE level 2 is more in depth than the level required in Europe, I'm hoping this is wrong, I'd like to think that any qualified guide has done more than an average backcounty enthusiast
Possibly, in fact probably, more snow science on the AIARE level 2 than in the French system. (disclaimer: I'm an avalanche trainer for the FFME, the curriculum is common with the ENSA curriculum). So it may just be different approaches to the problem.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
He used to love doing major lines with clients, we're talking stuff that requires serious commitment from clients, but there were fewer and fewer who were interested or capable.
I can imagine this is true but then I never really understood this bit of the market. I did a BMC alpine skills course when I was 20 so spent a week in Chamonix learning from and climbing with guides. Since then I've been a client for off-piste skiing and ski touring (with a dash of roped climbing involved). When I used to climb I could never really see the attraction of hiring a guide to get me up something really hard, I'd have got more satisfaction from doing something easier where I (and my partner) took responsibility for all the leading, route-finding and decision making. To my mind that is what mountaineering is about. If you are interested in doing hard technical stuff as safely as possible then sport climbing seems a better fit.
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