 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sounds good - only the highly qualified can take punters into the more dangerous situations.
To clearly differentiate between a 'ski instructor' and a very highly qualified Alpine Guide is a good thing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@red 27, +1 although I realisethat would upset the applecart in France both with Les Pulls rouges and a lot of international ski schools.
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I agree it's a good thing, taking punters were they won't stop if they fall is crazy. You at least have to know there abilities. I've seen people go top to bottom on Mont Fort.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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That is some fairly wide spread changes...
Thanks for posting the link.
Do they apply to the whole of Switzerland ?
Or just the Verbier region ?
I know that recently the Swiss changed the national law so that only those with a patente (the top qualification) could ski off-piste with clients.
In the BASI system this would mean having L4 + speed test + passing a local equivalency exam.
As far as I know L3 (ISIA level) with clients were recently restricted to just skiing on open marked itinerary runs ?
Technically off piste areas such as Stairway to Heaven and backside of Mont Fort are glaciated terrain.
So I am not sure that ski instructors were ever actually allowed to go there ?
Obviously though a resort like Verbier has lots of potentially extreme and dangerous terrain which can be easily accessed from the lifts.
So the < 39 degree restriction probably makes sense.
A UIAGM mountain guide is *much* more qualified that a ski instructor to lead people off piste in extreme terrain.
Though obviously a mountain guide also charges a much higher day rate than a ski instructor....
I always thought there was a good case for the UIAGM badge to be split into rock / ice climb / ski qualifications which could be used as stand alone qualifications ? (however that is going off topic).
Of course all of this of course means that the stand alone BASI off piste qualifications are virtually meaningless in all alpine nations (CH, France, Italy, Austria) unless you also have your full level 4 (which requires the speed test).
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 11-01-15 22:08; edited 1 time in total
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@Haggis_Trap, Not sure how it applies as I only know what's in that blog. I agree re the guides ticket. I have friends who are guides who are great climbers but crap at skiing, in chamonix a lot of the local guides are dual qualified and are brilliant skiers. There are a few british guides round here who are very good skiers. In Chamonix you get top level French instructors leading the VB!
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| Quote: |
| In Chamonix you get top level French instructors leading the VB! |
Really !?
I thought that only qualified UIAGM mountain guide could go onto glaciated terrain with clients in europe ?
Surprised this is possible in France.
Though I know the Austrians have a stand alone qualification for off piste ski instructors (bergfuhrer).
Though not sure of its remit or if it covers glaciers ?
Also in North America I think they can use the ski section of their UIAGM guides courses as an independent qualification ?
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@Haggis_Trap, I could be mistaken, the ESF guys leading the VB don't always have badges! But they might be dual qualified.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I know that recently the Swiss changed the national law so that only those with a patente (the top qualification) could ski off-piste with clients.
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It is part of the recent federal law you mention. Ski instructors must have a federal license not just cantonal; earn at least 2300 CHF/annum from the activity and have 5 Million CHF of PLI. They are restricted to slopes rated to AD (Assez Difficile) on the CAS scale which are slopes less than 40 degrees. They have to ask for permission to instruct off piste.
Regarding ESF instructors in the VB. Chamonix ESF offers dual qualified guide/instructors. A French ski instructor isn't legally qualified to ski the VB with clients. I'm not saying it doesn't happen just it would be illegal if it did. A French ski instructor cannot do any route requiring climbing techniques (rope work, I guess use of crampons, axes etc would be covered) or any glacier route outside of open ski runs. That would seem to be close to the Swiss AD limit.
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Probably still needs a dose of common sense. The Banana traverse of death isn't steep but is fairly high consequence. Much more dangerous than something like Stairway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Also in North America I think they can use the ski section of their UIAGM guides courses as an independent qualification ? |
Canada, America and New Zealand have specific Ski Guiding qualifications that also form port of their UIAGM training. Only valid in some countries though, although I guess more a function of insurance.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| gorilla wrote: |
| Probably still needs a dose of common sense. The Banana traverse of death isn't steep but is fairly high consequence. Much more dangerous than something like Stairway. |
Going to banana couloirs would involve a hike (and descent) > 40 degrees.
So also now a no-go zone for ski instructors.
In a resort like Verbier a number of areas will become out of bounds for ski instructors.
From Davidofs post it sounds like the new rules are part of the new federal law - so apply nationwide.
L3s / ISIA are now clearly only permitted on marked itinerary routes such as Vallon Darby or Tortin - when they are marked open.
FWIW : I think the new rules make sense.
My only comment is that being fully certified requires requires passing the speed test in most nations system.
Is it right that the speed test becomes the gate keeping exam for skiing off piste with clients ?
A good argument could be made for an improved EMS (european mountain safety) exam that actually has stand alone merit.
Interesting question : would the Swiss accept a patente application from someone with BASI L4 tech / teach but no speed test ?
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@Haggis_Trap, With BASI4 it is a 3 day conversion course/exam to Patente. This one is really just a check to see the equivalence.
With ISIA it can be done as a 10 day proper training course and proper exams (I think 10, might be a bit less).
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You know it makes sense.
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I've never really grasped whether regulations were about punter safety or certain people getting the lions share of the business. I've been involved in other sports where you have to shell out a lot of cash to gain certain qualifications that then allow you to make lots of cash that others can't because they haven't got the ticket. It's a very cynical way of looking at things but I've seen instructors who are very capable at their sport but useless at instructing. I've also met them who are barely adequate a their sport.
If I was going off piste with a guide I'd want them to be first aid trained, trained in weather and analysing the snow pack, fluent in the language of the people they were leading, only after that would I be interested in their ability to develop my technique. Above all, I'd want them to be local. You can have all the qualifications in the world but if you've lived in a area all your life, know the weather, the winds, the slope orientations to the sun and the gradients etc. etc. then you're going to have the best idea of when and where to ski and, more importantly, where not to.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@cameronphillips2000, fully agree with both paragraphs
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ Thanks.
I think in Austria you can perhaps become a "Schifuhrer" if you have the top level ski qualification and do part of the mountain guides course ?
Full respect to anyone who earns their UIAGM badge.
I think there are only 5000 world wide... (of which only 100 are female).
Arguably the hardest professional qualification to pass.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Thanks.
I think in Austria you can perhaps become a "Schifuhrer" if you have the top level ski qualification and do part of the mountain guides course ?
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I'm pretty sure it's something like that
And totally with you on the respect front. Arguably easier to become a doctor?
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@clarky999, "easier...doctor"
Hmmm, I am not so sure although I am certainly not arguing hard. My first OH was a medic. 5 years Uni, 3 house years (hideous on call and overtime) before you're really specialising? Also, depends what you consider "qualified" - Royal College cert is not instantaneous. Plus then required experience?
Too much of an apples vs pears comparison I think, great respect due on both sides.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I do know someone who is qualified BOTH as a doctor and a mountain guide!!!
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| clarky999 wrote: |
And totally with you on the respect front. Arguably easier to become a doctor? |
For people who climb and ski regularly easier to become a guide I would say. Locally I know a lot of people who climb above the standard required and one or two who've become guides without any serious difficulty. There's even people like Pierre Muller who, having qualified as a Doctor at Bristol university (where he climbed regularly) went on to qualify as a guide in Chamonix and now works as an A&E doctor in Briançon.
I would certainly agree that I couldn't become a guide but could probably qualify as a doctor.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 13-01-15 9:52; edited 1 time in total
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@Haggis_Trap, and @clarky999, you are both right last time I checked about the Austrian Skiführer qualification. It is an additional off piste guiding qualification that their top level (Staatliche) instructors can do to enable them to take clients on glacial terrain and day ski tours. As far as I'm aware it is also part of the Bergführer qualification for those training to be fully qualified guides - they both do the same course but then there is additional training and exams for those going on to do the Bergführer qualification.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 14-01-15 11:32; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| I do know someone who is qualified BOTH as a doctor and a mountain guide!!! |
He must get a lot of sex.
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@cameronphillips2000, and variety. Nurses and mountain goats!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I wouldn't know which title to start with on chat up lines. 'Hi I'am a doctor? Ski Instructor? Mountain Guide?'
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@davidof,
I think more people have the ability to be Doctors than UIAGM guides. Like you I reckon I could have qualified as a Doctor but not a guide.
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For people who climb and ski regularly easier to become a guide I would say
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I don't agree with that. There is a big difference between the standard required to climb something and the standard required to do it with so much "spare capacity" that you can look after some inexperienced amateurs when they do something stupid or disaster strikes. I climbed enough in my teens and twenties to know that I would never reach the required rock climbing standard (at least not without a massive amount of gym work and careful diet) - don't have the right level of upper body power to weight. As well as the climbing talent, you also need the psychological profile to guide (manage scared clients in very stressful situations) - that knocks out a significant share of talented climbers! I reckon there are a lot of regularly climbers who would never make it.
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^ I think the hardest part about becoming a guide is that you need to be solid on all 3 disciplines (ice climb, rock climb and ski) ?
The pre-requisite number of routes and previous experience just to be accepted onto the British scheme are a real eye opener.
Plus many nations like the French have a strict limit on how many can train each year - so competition is fierce.
Then of course you need to remain fit enough into your 40,50s and 60s to make a career out of it.
Maybe if you grew up in Chamonix it is no so hard....
But for mere mortals its tough - really tough.
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You know it makes sense.
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@jedster, I once watched some Aspirant guides in Chamonix and as part of their exam thay had to lead an overhanging 6b sport climb in La Sportiva Nepal boots - Yikes!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@red 27,
It's exactly that kind of think I mean  It's one thing to get to the point you can do it in rock shoes leading your mate, quite another to do it in big boots while looking after some unpredictable clients.
On the skiing side. I skied with a guide in Alagna and he took us down this sporty entrance to a couloir that involved site stepping down a rock and ice band to get to the start of a the skiing. You got to look all the way down the thing as you stepped in having the distinct impression that if you slipped you'd fall about 10 feet onto the firm looking 45 degree start at which point you'd be accelerating nicely. My head for heights is OK given my (long lost) climbing background but my (non-climbing) mate got properly gripped. Boris the guide (about 5ft 6 and less than 10 stone) stood braced with his edges set and said "don't worry, it's OK, I'll catch you". You have to be so far within your comfort zone to get away with that kind of stuff.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Haggis_Trap, do you have a rough idea on how many Brit guides there are ? just curious as it sounds so difficult to obtain..
from a quick read of the OP link website they seem to have omitted that instructors who don't have the full patente are allowed to teach off piste but they are further limited to teaching below the tree line on slopes graded Not very difficult "PD in French" by the SAC which is:
Usually open slopes with some short steep steps, quick turns might be necessary to avoid some obstacles,Short steep sections with gentle run outs Bottlenecks are short and not steep. Around 30°
This all sounds extremely sensible to me and is good to have a clear set of working rules for varying level of instructors and mountain guides working within their license remits.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 13-01-15 19:55; edited 3 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@skimottaret, 124 full guides currently, according to the BMG website. Of which 6 are female.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dave Walsh (Rtd) - now there's a name from the past.... I bet a few other  's have encountered that man!
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I think the show stopper for most aspirants is the pre-requirement for at least five grand courses in the alps, that's TD climbs over 800m ie major north faces.
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| jbob wrote: |
| I think the show stopper for most aspirants is the pre-requirement for at least five grand courses in the alps, that's TD climbs over 800m ie major north faces. |
No, not at all, almost all other nations require 10. The Uk system pre req is tough on 2 counts - the list of hard multipitch rock (more routes than anyone else asks for) and the scottish winter, this is the real showstopper - there are many who have considered becoming a guide through the uk system, myself included, but have no wish to go and live in scotland for potentialy many winters to get the pre req. Most if not all others guides courses require only the ice/mixed routes be of a certain dificulty and lenght....not insit they are in a certain place, and if the do they only want a few, so they can ask you about them to check you weren't lying on your application.
A strange one is the Norwegin system that for skiing they want the Euro Test!!!...or so I've been told - I guess it takes the guess work out of the ski side of things. The rational being if you are an acomplished alpinist (you have done 10 grand courses) and you can ski well enough to pass the euro test you can manage anything within reson on a pair of planks.
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to be fair you need 35 winter ice routes in Scotland of grade III (or above).
this could be done in 2 or 3 months ?
I think the challenging thing for Brits is getting good enough at rock climbing / ice climbing & skiing.
Too become good at all 3 requires serious dedication.
Plus gaining the required Alpine + Scottish experience for the numerous pre-requisites would require serious commitment, money and time (irrespective of where you are based)
http://www.bmg.org.uk/index.php/eng/Guide-Training/Pre-requirements
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't think the skiing component is all that hard though, is it? Probably easier than the Eurotest for anyone who didn't grow up racing?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| I don't think the skiing component is all that hard though, is it? Probably easier than the Eurotest for anyone who didn't grow up racing? |
That's an odd thing in my view. I don't know about Switzerland but if theses rules were adopted say in Scotland, there'd be 'black runs' here that ski instructors couldn't teach on.
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FAQ
(If only 
) I'm just not 100% of how it relates to the UIAGM badge.