Simon Butler - sentenced at Bonneville

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I think every country should grade their instructors ie L1 to L4 as in BASI but then add a letter A, B, C or D after the number when you first attain that grade you are rated as a D ( your previous level/grade ie L1(B) is still shown with it's grade though ). Only the very best instructors not skiers will ever attain the A grade.

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Megamum, if the level of qualification were a strong indicator of teaching ability I'd say it should be very prominent, but IMO it's not a reliable indicator so putting absolute faith in it is perhaps unwise. The info should be available but I don't think with absolute prominence.

BASI instructor badges are different depending what level of qualification you hold, although I'd guess only a small minority of ski school clients would recognise this and understand it, and not all instructors wear their badges (I don't, for example, but my website provides details of my qualifications and biographical info). Perhaps more important is the type of qualification - you want to develop your park skills then asking for an instructor who has a freestyle qualification seems reasonable, or perhaps a race coach award for those who would like an introduction to gates.

Best advice, given above, is personal recommendation. Or perhaps better still, find a ski school/instructor that you like and work with them over a period of time. That was and still is how I get my ski coaching.

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T Bar, there were about 180 on our course. The majority turned up to first lectures, even in the 2nd year, when we got Prof John B. Goodenough. Attendance might drop off a bit at second and subsequent lectures. I was one of two who turned up at John B's second lecture, which was an absolutely excruciating experience, from which I still cringe with embarrassment. I wasn't at the third. Great man though. Him not me. wink

After all it is free

Having just got back from a holiday in France and very quickly skim reading this thread I feel I must have been away too long; have UKIP embraced the principle of the free movement of labour? And my puzzlement at the suggestion that there is nothing stopping the Brits setting up their own ski schools in Austria is probably the result of jet lag.....

My understanding, and it is very likely wrong, as there is a lot of info about, is that he wouldn't do "the speed test". Is that right, and if so, why wouldn't he do it? With hindsight it would have been less costly.

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thecramps, it's more complicated than that. Simon, like other top BASI instructors of his generation, was entitled to an exemption from the speed test.

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It's all with good reason. As everyone who has ever purchased ski instruction knows, the quality of tuition in France is consistently superlative and is significantly higher than elsewhere in the world. This is evidenced by the praise heaped on French ski schools by guide books, media reports and web sites like this one.

Oh, wait...

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laundryman, I did say I was probably wrong.

Though I have to say a British ski instructor I met in France last year was "less than impressed" by his stance.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

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pam w,

Simon has also had support from other political parties. Here is a press release from Emma McClarkin, conservative MEP;

McClarkin: Ski case highlights French protectionism

British ski instructor Simon Butler has been found guilty today of teaching without proper qualifications by a French court. He was sentenced to 200 days in prison or a €30,000 fine.

Conservative MEP Emma McClarkin, who has raised Mr Butler's case with the EU Commission, believes he is a victim of French protectionism. She initiated EU legislation which allows appropriate professional qualifications to be recognised across Europe.

The East Midlands MEP today said: "This case just goes to prove that protectionism still takes priority in France. I'm sad to say Mr Butler's case is not the only incident of British instructors having problems in France. The French behaviour defies the free movement of workers and is totally against the recognition of professional qualifications."

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It seems that there is a lot of comments from people with agendas who have not read the EU law or read it selectively. Again the principle of the EU law is that countries can set their own regulations/standards - they just have to recognise equivalent qualifications to their own which the French do as demonstrated by the hundreds of fully qualified instructors who work in France without a problem.

SB would have been best advised to sort out his grandfather rights regarding the Euro test long ago which seems to be down to SB and or BASI not sorting out the admin and SB employing staff deemed under qualified instructors. It also appears that SB has not updated his EMS for last season so would not have been qualified to instruct last season. He would be best advised to focus on resolving these matters so that he is arguing from a position of strength.

It appears that SB has acknowledged that while he may possibly have a case that ISIA instructors can work last season based on a selective reading of EU law then he realised he certainly did not have a clear case as he did not expect to win at this stage, and he has a more difficult argument next season under the new directive as he is seeking to employ ISTDs.

His approach to BASI based on the board meetings and to the French based on his quotes does appear antagonistic, somewhat understandable but not in his own best interests. In my experience of working internationally the most successful approach is not to be confrontational but respect and understand the local culture, learn the language and persuade from within. I think there is a lot of sympathy for ISIAS being able to work in France - a starting point would be that they can work for approved schools without the TT.

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I thought the point that has been repeatedly made on this subject was that it's extremely difficult for French nationals to do what Simon Butler has been doing, and that this is due to a protectionist stance (keeping ski instruction as a career that provides a living wage etc.), rather than any 'racist vendetta', anti-British sentiment or general xenophobia? I thought this was also why Simon Butler hasn't received overwhelming support from British ISTD instructors who have jumped the hoops, are playing the game by the rules, and don't want to see their competition increased either…?

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A couple of misconceptions / fallacy that need to be pointed out.

#1) Its NOT french protectionism, the locals also need to do the Euro Test. The system in France is basically limiting the total number of ski instructors (of all nationality) thus allowing those with the top level qualification to make a profession career from ski teaching. The ET (etc) also keeps the Parisians out.

#2) No one is questioning that Simon Butler could have been qualified to work in France. He was offered grandfather rights to work independently as a ski instructor in 2001 but refused them. The bigger issue seems to be that he wanted to continue employing lower level instructors for his buisness? Under the French system only established training organisations (such as the ESF and a few others) may do this

Fair play to Simon Butler - he stubbornly took on a real David vs Goliath battle.
Without doubt he was trying to use EU law to enforce massive changes upon the way France regulates its ski teaching industry.
If he had been successful the implications would have been huge.
Though my guess it that he will need very deep pockets to go all the way to Brussels - and there is a very good chance he might not win even if he gets there?

After all it is free

To state the obvious : If the UK came out of the EU as UKIP (and some back bench Tories) propose then it would be a total disaster for Brit ski instructors....

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Haggis_Trap, TBH I doubt that issue will swing the in/out the EU decision though wink

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Haggis_Trap, Simon's grandfather rights were sorted long ago following a BASI administrative error. Mysteriously, this year, BASI did not issue him a MOU stamp as in previous years - and as for all other ISTDs as far as I'm aware - apparently claiming it was issued mistakenly before. This may or may not have been a factor in his conviction. I think the written judgement will be issued soon that hopefully will clarify that.

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You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Haggis_Trap, I don't think it was the crux of the matter. AIUI, Simon was convicted for teaching personally and the others too. I don't think there was a separate charge of employing ineligible people, though I suppose the severity of Simon's punishment compared to the others reflected that circumstance.

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^ My understanding was that Simon refused his "grandfather" rights in 2001 as the agreement between BASI and the French wouldn't have allowed him to continue employing other instructors ? Since then has also refused to do a euro test.

No doubt Simon is still angry with the the arrangements BASI made with the French some 10+ years ago.
But since then he certainly hasn't taken the easy option and could have been working legally as an independent if he wished.

A snowHead

Haggis_Trap, whatever happened in ancient history (and my understanding is different to yours, but there is probably no resolving the matter), last year Simon was given all the credentials he needed from BASI, and this year one that may have been vital (the MoU stamp) was withheld. Whatever "mistake" BASI may have been made, this year or previously, none of it alters the fact that Simon is an ISTD and has the documentation to prove it (which was given to the French authorities in good time before the start of last season). This verdict is very puzzling. The conviction of the others less so, though they were not without a defence worth an airing. I agree that Simon has chosen to tread a difficult path.

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You go to school to be taught. You go to university to learn.

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I don't really get what's big deal with this. There are rules and if you want to work there, you should follow them. It has nothing to do with bad French guys trying to protect their own. It's simply you should have proper qualifications and you are allowed to work there. It has nothing to do with free movement of labour, more likely with free movement of unqualified labour. It's pretty much same if I would go to London and complain when I wouldn't be able to work as doctor, even if I don't have proper doctor's diploma.
Also in Austria, or anywhere else, you can't there and teach people. You need to have proper qualifications. And this guy didn't have them. So what's big deal? You don't agree with what French consider as proper qualification? Bad luck, stay at home then.

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jogi, massive simplification.

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Absolutely. It's much better to say "those bad French, they always try to scre**w us" ' Wink

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northernsoulboy, noone, but looks like majority here think it's anti-British thing Wink

And I don't know, but on one side, I actually agree with setting some regulations. When you put kids to school, or when you go to doctor, you expect these people to know what they are doing, and you can trust them. On one side it's same with skiing. On the other side, I agree you can take your car to official service where people fixing it have certifications (and hopefully knowledge), or you can take it to your friend, who will (maybe) fix it in garage. So this can also go with skiing. Now is teaching skiing as important as prescribing antibiotics or teaching your kids how to read and write, or it's not so important and could be considered as fixing car. I'm more for second one, but obviously people writing laws think different... or better yet, they got paid by organizations trying to keep monopole in this thing.
But no matter what, at the moment rules are like they are, and if you want to play you stick to them, otherwise you carry the consequences.

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Simon Butler - sentenced at Bonneville

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