 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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good luck to simon and his one man campaign...
he obviously believes that he was right and has a case to fight.
i respect his tenacity and willingness to fight the cause.
no doubt he will appeal to Chambery / Paris and then the EU ?
however I think this result shows BASI were 100% correct to remain neutral and not back him ?
doing so would only have been costly and damaged the association.
it is not BASI role to try and force change in another nations system.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It is difficult to assess as the details of the judgement and its reasons don't appear to be available at least not yet and because I agree it seems likely that SB will appeal to higher courts. I do wonder if SB has been well advised in his own best interests by his lawyers and associates. Essentially, despite all the hot air, it is currently a legal debate. The law as is stands appears to me to allow countries to set their own regulations and only requires that they recognise equivalents qualifications, certainly going forward if not under the current legislation so it is difficult to see that he will win his battle long term under the EU law based on a reading of the current and new directive.
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Another reason to boycott french ski areas.
Austria is much more freindly to Ski instructors & guides.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stanton, Would he be able to set up his own ski school in St Anton ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Or ski rental shop?
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or the swiss with their minibus and Taxi rules at Geneva.
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My favoriate quote lifted from the BASI FB Page:
French lawyer, Christine Lagarde, former head of the IMF in February 2014, denouncing protectionism:
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| "...Today, however, we are coming out of the Great Recession, the worst economic crisis—and the great test—of our generation. Thanks to their legacy of multilateralism—international cooperation—we did not slip into another Great Depression that would have brought misery across the world yet again. We all passed the test—rejecting protectionism, reaffirming cooperation." |
Still I suppose it explains all the French engineers I'm coming across who have moved to the UK.
Some interesting comments regarding the implication the judgement has on the general recognition of the ISTD qualification in France. This seems to come down to the MOU stamp which (as I understand it) isn't EU Law as yet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It's all pointless, the Uk will be out of the EU soon and he will definitively have no rights to work there anymore... 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| or the swiss with their minibus and Taxi rules at Geneva. |
Switzerland isn't in the EU though so can do as they please.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't know why people keep banging on about 300,000 French living and working in the UK. More Brits have left the UK to live in other parts of Europe than the French have done. Simon Butler says he is the victim of a racist vendetta, and yet other British ski schools working in the same area have not experienced the same problems.
It seems he has been working without a Carte Pro because he is not being issued with one for reasons that still seem to be unclear. He can certainly claim that it's due to a personal vendetta (and there clearly is a long-standing problem going on there) but he can't claim it's a racist vendetta when plenty of other British instructors have been issued with the Carte Pro and allowed to run chalet businesses in France… can he?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Haggis_Trap, if Scotland is out of the UK (and that will be determined sooner), it will find itself outside the EU by default if Spain exercises its veto to deter the Basque Country and Catalonia.
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Poster: A snowHead
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^ Scaremongering establishment nonsense....
Whilst Scotland may have to apply to join the EU there are no reason we wouldn't be able to join / fulfill the criteria.
Spain has said several times they would not oppose an independent Scotland joining the UK so long as independence came through a democratic process.
They have had plenty opportunity in the past to oppose Estonia, Lithunia, Croatia, Slovakia <etc> - but they didnt.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/977a39ea-8c26-11e3-9b1d-00144feab7de.html#axzz34t5mh3hc
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 17-06-14 11:04; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whatever the rights and wrongs under EU law, a sentence of 200 days in jail for this seems totally disproportionate
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Perhaps... However clearly the French are making an example of his case to maintain and protect "their system"
It is worth noting that while Simon may have been qualified to teach himself in France he was not allowed to employ other instructors
This seems to be the real sticking point as the entire French system depends on only official training centres (such as the ESF and a few others) being allowed to employ lower level instructors. As soon as any ski school can employ lower levels then the French might as well do BASI themselves....
AFAIK Simon could have been offered a carte-pro / BASI equivalence in the past - but he could only have worked for himself.
However seems that after 2001 he wanted to continue employing other L2 / L3 instructors (as he had done for 10years).
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 17-06-14 11:13; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Arno,
might be because he's got previous...
I'm French but can't stand ESF. I have had a really bad/humiliating, and character defining, experience with them as a young boy, so I have no sympathy for them here. This whole thing is all about legal (validity of arguments aside) avenues used to enforce some protectionism.
What gets me in the other related thread and the press is the hypocrisy. At the end of the day it's about people reacting badly to "foreigners" coming over and "taking their jobs"... Now, where did I see that "popular" argument bandied about recently?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Perhaps... However clearly the French are making an example of his case to maintain and protect "their system" |
i am against sentencing "making an example" of individuals - they should be punished for the crime they did, not for the crimes that others might do
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There is a video, haven't watched it yet.
I have got to know Simon a bit through doing Masters races with him, I can't really see what else the court could do other than increase the penalties as he had ignored the earlier judgements.
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| rjs wrote: |
| There is a video, haven't watched it yet. |
Don't bother! 30 seconds of him not saying or doing anything (other than putting a tie on) and a woman who says something about the Mail and the Telegraph before it cuts out - that's it.
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Let's see.
Stating that a Country's judicial proceedings against you are borne of a racial motive is really going to help your case. Hmmm....
Talk about grabbing a Tiger by the tail, or poking hornets nest.
I think i'm starting to see why they seem to have got completely hacked off with him.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Claude B wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| or the swiss with their minibus and Taxi rules at Geneva. |
Switzerland isn't in the EU though so can do as they please. |
The EU-SWiss committee agreed to abide by the relevant legislation that governs EU cross border working and recognition of qualifications, so legally they can't do as they please (last time I spoke to the owner of a transfer company he seemed to think that a resolution to the taxi problem would be found in the aspect of the legislation that refers to temporary and occasional provision of services). Of course, as Switzerland isn't in the EU they weren't a part of the negotiations that recently revised the relevant legislation, so they will have to either sign up to it or not sign up to it rather than trying to negotiate for whatever priorities they have. No idea what the recent referendum results in Switzerland will have, but I guess it will get more complicated. In terms of ski instruction, Switzerland is very accommodating of temporary workers but for those who want to teach full-time without restriction the only sensible option is to convert to the Swiss instructor qualifications.
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I've never quite got to bottom of this different qualifications argument. If a punter requiring lessons wants to pay for their spot on the hill via a lift pass and pay an instructor for his spot on the hill, i.e his fee for the couple of hours that they are with them, why shouldn't that punter be allowed the choice of what system they are taught through?
Having had instruction in Switzerland, Austria, France and England (hells bells I am getting around these days!   ), I do think each country has its own method of teaching. I have probably learned most in order of preference from England, France, Switzerland and Austria. Therefore, just because England doesn't have the alps at its disposal why shouldn't I, as a punter, be allowed the choice of instructor/teaching method when in the alps, esp. if I have been training under one system whilst at home. This must surely apply in the slightly less likely scenario of someone taught under the Austrian teaching method wanting to move to France, Switzerland or the UK and continue their training under the same method. I would have thought the best scenario would be for French ski schools to take instructors from lots of different schemes to enable to assignment to punters who might have a preference.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, it's more to do with the level of qualification rather than which national ski instructor association issued the qualification. It's not straightforward as there are differences across EU qualifications (e.g., some countries just have one level of qualification plus a limited time trainee status, but other con tries have a multi-tier qualification system). There are also differences in legislation depending on whether you want to be based permanently in another country (so called full right of establishment) or work on short-term basis visiting from your home country (temporary and occasional provision of services). It is further complicated by the fact that some countries (e.g. Italy, Austria and Switzerland) operate their arrangements regionally, with some differences between regions. In some countries/regions it also depends on whether you want to teach on and off-piste or just on piste only. It is a dynamic situation, and the Simon Butler case is just one aspect of this and might be unique to his particular situation.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum,
The French system is based around the words "follow me" (a variation on Duncan Norvelle's "Chase me"). Instructors have to be fast (pass the speed test) as it would look ruddy stupid if one of the students were actually fast enough to catch one of the French trained instructors.
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Megamum, don't give us all that common sense malarky. There's got to be laws, rules and regulations (local, national and regional; written and unwritten) so that important and clever people can sit around in committees horse-trading (always on the customers' behalf, of course), devising stuff that nobody can follow (then changing it), so that other people (or, indeed, the same people) can sell a never-ending series of courses to ardent apprentices, and it can all end up in court with expensive lawyers! It's all in the customers' best interests. You do no not know what you want, and certainly cannot be allowed to do it. Trust me!
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You know it makes sense.
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laundryman,
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, In an ideal world, you would go on holiday from your minimum wage zero hour contract job and get a random ski instructor also on a minimum wage zero hour contract.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... but regarding level of instruction surely that's a punter's decision? I can see from your observations that each country clearly does things differently, but my observation is why should it be necessary? |
I agree with you, perhaps with one caveat. I think the customer should be able to check, if they wish, the professional qualifications that their instructor has (which in most ski schools is not possible at the moment).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, hear, hear.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Maybe someone just needs to marry all the qualfications into a relative ranking system and then they could all be employed across all countries and punters then just married up to someone with appropriate skills. |
There is a process for that within the EU: the European Qualification Framework. Different levels of national qualification can be graded against the EQF. This is a framework for all qualifications not just ski instruction. Currently BASI qualifications are going through the process of being EQF grading, which should be complete later this year.
There is also the umbrella body for national ski instructor associations (ISIA) which has a process for assigning qualifications a particular level. Most countries are a member of ISIA and have their qualifications rated on the 4 point scale.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... punters then just married up to someone with appropriate skills. |
Final point on your excellent post: it would be nice if level of qualification was directly related to excellence of instruction. Top level qualification = best teachers. In my experience there is not a guarantee that this will be the case. I know instructors with the highest level qualification that I consider hopeless at teaching, and instructors with lower level qualifications that I think are gifted instructors. Obviously that's not just the case with ski instruction as I'm sure many of us have experience of school teachers with a PhD who were simply hopeless in comparison to their 'merely' graduate level colleagues (Dr Jones, my O level physics teacher, I'm looking at you...).
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rob@rar, the worst lecturer, by some margin, I had at university was busy inventing the lithium ion battery. Brilliant man, who was unable to teach me, or any of my contemporaries, anything.
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All of the above points go towards one conclusion. Only trust ski instructors (or gym instructors or whatever) who come with a personal recommendation from someone you trust! The bits of paper any of them have are just that 'bits of paper'! I have had such bad experiences of ski school instructors that I know I am hugely biased against them, all of them! However I recognise that in all sports there are good instructors/teachers its just that whichever country is giving them bits of paper that says they are qualified to teach, I don`t trust them one iota! I would love to see ski instructors really having to 'learn how to teach' rather than just getting exams that show they can 'do' this and that!
I`ll say here that I maybe a little out of date with what ski instructors have to learn but it is still very true in many other hobby/activity areas!
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| rjs wrote: |
| Megamum, In an ideal world, you would go on holiday from your minimum wage zero hour contract job and get a random ski instructor also on a minimum wage zero hour contract. |
Or both parties would be self employed, setting their own fee's for their services and free to choose the supplier of any services they wish to buy...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| Megamum, In an ideal world, you would go on holiday from your minimum wage zero hour contract job and get a random ski instructor also on a minimum wage zero hour contract. |
Or both parties would be self employed, setting their own fee's for their services and free to choose the supplier of any services they wish to buy... |
In reality if there really were no rules at all , I suspect the UK TOs, would bring their Isabellas on UK contracts, well below local minimum wages and expect them to include lessons as part of their package.
My guess is that once they clear this mess up, the authorities will start looking at people employed locally but not on a local contract.
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| Quote: |
I think the customer should be able to check, if they wish, the professional qualifications that their instructor has (which in most ski schools is not possible at the moment).
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rob@rar, as a punter I do agree with this. As noted above I am getting through ski instructors and ski schools at a somewhat alarming rate but at no point have I ever been made aware of the qualifications of the instructor teaching me and although I have been interested in knowing I don't think it is an appropriate question to ask, esp. at my somewhat lowly level of skiing.
However, for some people I think it could be important, I know that there are people who are self confessed excellent skiers who are probably way beyond say a Level x instructor in their skills set, yet might not themselves have gone down the instructor route. I would assume someone at that level needs an instructor that is at Level x+ in order to obtain sufficient instruction to take them forwards. Presumably such people might say to a ski school that they need a level x+ instructor, but I don't think it is something that many punters would normally do. I sometimes think it would be nice to see an instructors qualification written clearly on their jacket, or a clear badge worn that specifies what level they are. I do hope that more qualified instructors earn more, but by the same token, as I noted above, I think Joe/Josephine beginner punter should be given the option of hiring a lower grade of instructor at a reduced rate if that is all they need.
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FAQ
wonder whos going to be worse off.......
