 Poster: A snowHead
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here's a thought... their snow slope their rules
if you don't like it then ski elsewhere, or wear your helmet and get on with it
i love how we are no citing legal cases, terms and conditions of use and data about helmets and injury rates, it is well seeing most people haven't had any skiing yet this season 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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We've not seen the death / serious injury rate from snowdomes, although I'd expect it to be less than for people driving to them. Are any snowdomes in public ownership? If they are we can pull an FOI request on them to find the data. I understand why the evangelical hate evidence, but the rest of us need to use our brains a bit.
I would think other injuries would be much more common in those places, and "negligence" easier to assign to the operator if they're the result (for example) of failing to enforce safe slope use (which doesn't mean riding out of control with a helmet on).
How about for example dental injury on an operator provided rail? Serious and excellent dental treatment (been there, done that) can easily top fifty K.
Their small print did mention full-face helmets, didn't it? Obviously the evangelical will already be using those simply because it's obviously safer, but what about those who are less sure - how do we protect them from this risk?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
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Since snowdomes are essentially no different to groomed, patrolled and landscaped ski runs on a mountain there's absolutely no reason for their operators to enforce helmet use.
Maybe Braehead could explain on this thread how on earth they justify their policy, given the comprehensive absence of helmet enforcement on European mountains.
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Comedy Goldsmith, It's private property that's why and these days you can get done for not enforcing peoples safety, in just the same way that I can be done if a milkman trips in a pothole on my driveway because I haven't put up a sign saying 'beware of the potholes' or even mended them. As CEM says, their premises, their rules. If I go to a riding school I am not allowed to ride on their fields without a helmet that doesn't meet a quite specific safety standard because I am on private property. Yet I could take my own horse to a field on a mountain and ride without any protection on my head whatsoever as people have done for centuries. There is no difference between this and the ski snowdome/mountain argument. . People are fightened of litigation and I can't say as I blame them.
This is one of those - 'get over it' situations. Snowdomes don't have to exist so that skiers can ski without specific headgear. They are commercial operations and if people decide that they want to use them out of choice then they should abide by whatever rules are set by the owners - if the rules say skiers should be able to perform linked turns in order to use the main slope then a skier should be able to expect to be kicked off it if they can't, yet I don't see you claiming descrimation against skiers that can't ski not being able to use the big slope.
No-one forces anyone to use something that they don't want to. If people don't want to wear a helmet and that is the rule then they clearly don't ski - end of argument!!
I'm sorry, CG/DG/or whatever flavour of name you are choose to use at the moment, there are some occasions when you spout a whole load of nonsense and I'm afraid that this is one of them. The Snowdome owners have no-one to answer to, esp. you, and I think you insult them by suggesting that they should appear and do so when all they have made is a business decision which they are absolutely entitled to make. If you want a Snowdome with no rules then set one up!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, that quote was for Braehead to respond to ... publicly ... not you!
If you want to set yourself up as some sort of unpaid PR screen for a snowdome's 'helmet enforcement and litigation department', that's up to you. You're better off saving the skin of your typing fingers.
Let's hear from the horse's mouth. Maybe I'll send them an email later.
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Comedy Goldsmith,
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Let's hear from the horse's mouth. Maybe I'll send them an email later.
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I think you've got a very jumped up expectation of your own importance. If I was the snowdome on receipt of such an email I think I'd divert it to junk mail. There is no case to answer.
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Megamum, that quote was for Braehead to respond to ... publicly ... not you!
If you want to set yourself up as some sort of unpaid PR screen for a snowdome's 'helmet enforcement and litigation department', that's up to you. You're better off saving the skin of your typing fingers.
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Regarding my typing fingers they are fine I have just as much right to stick up for whatever organisation I please as you have to decry their efforts. I will respond to whatever posting I wish in whatever way I choose. If you didn't want that responded to then you shouldn't have posted it. What you don't like is that my reasoning flies in the face on your dislike for what they have done. However, there is something you are forgetting - it is their operation, their business, their legal department and therefore none of your business to stir the pot in a manner that could damage their commerical operation. I am afraid I don't think you are being fair to them and I see no reason not to say so!
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Snowdomes don't have to exist so that skiers can ski without specific headgear. |
Excellently put.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Comedy Goldsmith
Er, here's the thing. It's been compulsory to wear a helmet there since 1st May 2013*. They're still in business. I'm sure you'll get the response your whining merits.
*source: http://www.basi.org.uk/content/braehead.aspx
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Megamum, that's exactly what I mean. This is a (supposely) commercial enterprise which has decided to deter people like me from using it, because they insist that we wear lids.
And you say they don't need to be answerable to anyone. Well they certainly have to be answerable to their shareholders, who probably don't know anything about this ridiculous 'business killing' rule. Are their shareholders aware that they may be the only snowdome in the world, and the only ski area in Europe, to insist that users wear helmets?
Then you say you've got to defend them, because the poor things will probably bin my email and need a defender.
It seems to me that you're trying to be their mother: MegaSnowdomeMum. If I were you I'd outlet my maternal instincts to things more animate and deserving.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Comedy Goldsmith
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If I were you I'd outlet my maternal instincts to things more animate and deserving.
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The trouble is I don't think I could find a diaper to fit you.
Comedy Goldsmith
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And you say they don't need to be answerable to anyone. Well they certainly have to be answerable to their shareholders, who probably don't know anything about this ridiculous 'business killing' rule. Are their shareholders aware that they may be the only snowdome in the world, and the only ski area in Europe, to insist that users wear helmets?
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Their shareholders might not even be aware of such things per se. If Mrs B or South Street has a few shares in the enterprise she might actually assume that such a sensible thing (by her understanding) as helmet use would occur anyway.
Enforcing such a rule might actually work in their favour. They might find that they can hold up their apparent stance on safety as a plus point to encourage people to use them, in much the same way as companies like to demonstrate things like safety in other areas. i.e. "Look at us the safest snowdome in Europe". I don't have a choice between two equidistant and easy to get to snowdomes one that enforces helmet wearing and one that doesn't.
If I did I would pick the one that enforced helmet wearing because if they are going to do that then there is a good chance that all their other health and safety related rules and procedures are also up to the mark. IMO it demonstrates an organisation that cares for its clientelle and it could easily be GOOD for business and that is certainly an issue for the shareholders. I very much doubt that a commerically focussed organisation enforced such a different approach without a certain amount of market research and such research is their commerical secret and not our business. They may well have identified something that the others have missed with the change of public attitudes to safety whether those are well founded or not.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 21-11-13 11:26; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The trouble is I don't think I could find a diaper to fit you
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You know it makes sense.
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Here's their TripAdvisor page. So far only one old fart ranting about helmet policy (couple of mentions of helmet quality, but that's another matter):
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g551801-d1417279-Reviews-Snow_Factor-Renfrew_Renfrewshire_Scotland.html#REVIEWS
Seems a few users actually want SNOW FACTOR to build on their H&S policies! Oh dear, oh dear.
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| No instruction, no safety brief. Weren't even told where to go. No staff supervision for the majority of the time meaning children being crashed into. How someone hasn't been seriously injured I'm not quite sure |
How would CG feel being supervised as he skis? It's what the public want!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If you're saying they enforce helmets because their slope control is so poor ... that's like having a doctor in a restaurant to deal with the effects of poor hygiene in the kitchen.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Comedy Goldsmith,
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If you're saying they enforce helmets because their slope control is so poor ... that's like having a doctor in a restaurant to deal with the effects of poor hygiene in the kitchen.
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That sounds to me like you putting words in someone else's mouth.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Comedy Goldsmith, first no, no one said that. Secondly it's not really, in that scenario a doctor would react rather than prevent. It would be more like putting seat belts in a car because the car might hit something. This is also known as 'a good idea'.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Agreed, they can enforce helmets if they want. I just find it hard to believe that the insurance cost saving is enough to make up for the number of people who won't go.
But we seem to be accepting that the current drive for safety in all things is inherently good. Ski helmets are not new. 30 yrs ago kids under about 5 and downhill racers wore helmets. Everyone else decided that the risk of head injury in normal recreational skiing was low enough that we didn't need to bother. Why has that judgement changed? (For normal piste skiing, I know more people are free skiing and that is different). If we weren't irresponsible then, we are not now. It is just the rest of the world that is wrong 
If we are going to get picky about safety, in HSE advice PPE (helmets etc) are the LAST line of defence for risks which cannot be adequately controlled by other means. As applied to a snowdome that would mean removing or protecting things you can hit, policing the users, maintaining equipment, slope preparation and, importantly, restricting numbers. Perhaps they think that putting in more punters who therefore have more collisions is ok if they all have their little hats on. I for one would be much more worried about having my knees taken out by some numpty than my head. If an organisation thinks that helmets are important for safety on a gentle indoor slope then I don't trust their judgement.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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30 yrs ago kids under about 5 and downhill racers wore helmets. Everyone else decided that the risk of head injury in normal recreational skiing was low enough that we didn't need to bother. Why has that judgement changed?
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This rather dispassionate piece neatly explains the history of research into ski (and snowboard) helmets. Suggest sticking with it to the bottom where you can follow the references should you wish: http://www.ski-injury.com/prevention/helmet
Your argument, 'it was only for experts back in the day' could have been made about harnesses for racing drivers and seat belts in private vehicles. I keep making the seatbelt comparison because all the argument against helmets (it's uncomfortable, never used to have one, my right not to wear it, causes injuries in other places, not guaranteed to save you) are the same as those against seatbelts but we seem to have got over that.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 21-11-13 13:32; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It would be more like putting seat belts in a car because the car might hit something. This is also known as 'a good idea'.
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The few times I've been to a snowdome, most recently Hemel, it's been more crowded than any ski slope I've ever skied on out in the real world. That in itself is a good reason for helmets, IMV. If it means I am never likely to meet Comedy Goldsmith there well, I must just suck up the disappointment, stiffen my upper lip, and learn to live with it.
Some SHs (probably including the OP) are old enough to remember all the daft arguments against seatbelts in cars.
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As a local Glaswegian, I have to say I'm disappointed with developments at Braehead and not just the helmet thing. They've roughly halfed the size of the beginners slope to build an ice wall, built a ramp/terrace to the bar from the slope, which cuts the width of the slope by around 20%. On the other side of the slope (at least every time I've been recently), they've had a slalom training course, not open to the public.
So slope width is dramatically reduced.
Lesson prices have gone up as have slope prices - Off Peak £20 per hour, £25 for 2 hours, Peak £26 per hour, £31 for 2 hours.
I used to go quite a lot, can't see that happening now. The helmet thing is a pain in the ass, I wear a helmet when skiing abroad, but at Braehead most people are linking slow turns or other drills to improve technique and very few people are haring about. It does suggest to me that it is just a cheaper way for them to have less policing of the slope and just have everyone wear a helmet instead. Disappointing.
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albinomountainbadger, that site, run by a respected Medical expert, is one which has been updated regularly (and to which I have linked regularly). It has shown well how the evidence has emerged. It also shows well how some have stayed out of date. In this thread, before he deleted it, DG/CG linked to an early paper by Shealey looking at mechanisms of head injury, but not the study by him showing how the average time between potentially serious head injuries has trebled as helmet usage rose.
pam w, many of us have been lucky enough to see CG/DG in action at Hemel. His stylish locks streaming behind him. I think his closet fear of helmet-hair is really behind his bizarre helmet-manafacturers-cabal theory 
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that's exactly what I mean. This is a (supposely) commercial enterprise which has decided to deter people like me from using it, because they insist that we wear lids.
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Maybe they were targeting just you! You know at some point when you have a problem with everyone perhaps the others are not the problem.
If you dont like their rules you have other options and places to ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Fattes13,
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Maybe they were targeting just you!
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They clearly played that one right didn't they? Maybe it's a case of played for and won!!?
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It's genuinely interesting to see how many posters on this thread have essentially leapt to the defence of Snow Factor, Braehead, and their unique helmet policy.
It's true that they can define their customer base as 100% helmeted (or any other criterion they choose) and face the consequences. I've not sent them the email yet, but there's no hurry. They may find it useful to have this thread play out a bit, first.
It's interesting that Tamworth's policy is - apparently - the exact opposite, with no helmet stipulations for anyone.
Tamworth was the UK's first full-scale snowdome. I wonder if their fuller experience of skiers has any bearing on their superior (in my view) perception of the spirit and freedom of skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Comedy Goldsmith, Their house their rules, the spirit and freedom of skiing you speak of exists you can go elsewhere. Simple
I would not call it unique & I certainly don’t think they believe 100% of the clients are helmet users, more a case of the most people that ski are not as up tight, out of touch or hold themselves in such high esteem as you do. I would conjecture that even people who do not normally wear a lid may choose to don one for some practice and then go back to what they choose when they are abroad.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Comedy Goldsmith, you are def. a meddler aren't you.? Perfectly happy to accuse all and sundry of underhand tactics because their attitude doesn't suit you. Well you know what? I don't think anyone cares if something doesn't personally suit you. At the end of the day a helmet rule suits this snow centre. It's their centre, their right to choose their own rules. Snow centres don't exist to match up to your own half-baked ideals of what people want from their skiing. They are built as hard-nosed business enterprises and if they want their punters to wear a helmet, then it is their right as the owners to do so.
You are entitled to your opinion. So am I. Yet you don't see me making a song and dance about the fact that all the other centres haven't enforced helmet wearing and I think they should do so. It's none of my business what the Snow Centres do - I will just comply with whatever requirements exist at a premises that I visit. If a swimming pool says no inflatable toys I comply, this tends to be what folks do even if they don't agree with things (and there is plenty I don't agree with, but I just get on with it. You seem to have a single minded mission to deliver any tiny of snippet of snow related news to the SH's collective and be Judge and Jury in the process. Well I don't think the majorty are interested. I've only chimed in here this time as I think you are being blatently unfair to this Snow Centre.
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Your argument, 'it was only for experts back in the day' could have been made about harnesses for racing drivers and seat belts in private vehicles. I keep making the seatbelt comparison because all the argument against helmets (it's uncomfortable, never used to have one, my right not to wear it, causes injuries in other places, not guaranteed to save you) are the same as those against seatbelts but we seem to have got over that.
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My argument is that seatbelts were made compulsory because of the level of risk associated with road traffic, and because passengers flying around in a crash can kill others by crushing them. Seat belts could help rail passengers too, but the risk is so low compared with cars that they are not required.
The risk of head injuries in skiing is already low and there is no conceivable way that not wearing a helmet puts anyone else at risk.
The interesting article you linked to concludes that helmets do reduce risk, which I don't dispute, but
"Serious head injuries though are very rare and as a result in my opinion (and that of most other snow sports researchers) the overall risk does not justify a blanket law mandating their use."
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You know it makes sense.
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| Tamworth What to Wear wrote: |
| Gloves are a necessity. These should preferably be non-woolly as snow clings to wool. A pair of leather gloves or specialist ski or snowboard gloves will keep your hands warm. |
What? No apoplexy of rage that Tamworth are clearly hand in glove (geddit!) with the handware and leathergoods industry! THEY PRESENT NO EVIDENCE THAT THESE GLOVES WILL KEEP YOU WARM!
But seriously, Tam say they that "all essential equipment is hired to you within the cost of admission (skis, board, boots, poles, skates"... Now at CFe and other snowdomes, that'll include a helmet if you hiring (if you want one) - not so in Tam, you'd have to go buy one - so to a learner, who's most likely to use a dome and want protection, which looks like a better proposition, a slope which provides all the kit you want, or one that doesn't?
oh good lord i'm engaging with him again aren't I...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wearing a helmet in a snowdome or anywhere drives me crazy. I absolulty hate them but my biggest gripe is that the staff at castleford are always there to shout at you to wear a helmet even just for moguls which seems crazy yet when my friend broke his back there, they didnt even have a qualified first aider on hand to look after him. Maybe this is why they're so keen on helmets as they are not properly staffed for the other health and safety aspects
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, clearly I would have disappointed you as a son.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wearing a helmet in a snowdome or anywhere drives me crazy
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Why does someone's personal choice upset you so much do you have that little to be worrying about
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
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Wearing a helmet in a snowdome or anywhere drives me crazy
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Why does someone's personal choice upset you so much do you have that little to be worrying about |
Its my personal safety not anyone elses so it should be my choice.
Its the big stupid heavy thing on my head that makes me too hot and sweaty that upsets me. I realy dont care if anyone else wears helmets but I dont see why I should be forced to while doing something that is perfectly safe in my mind
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Comedy Goldsmith, well you haven't done yourself any favours in my eyes with this thread. When you are good, you are brilliant and some of the stuff you write is well worth reading. I think I occasionally note as much, but you are occasionally the exact opposite and that is when you disappoint. I like the former DG and have a lot of time for you when you are in brilliant mode - sadly the other DG/CG surfaces most often and I'm sure that it isn't a fair representation of you. FWIW I'd be interested in coffee at some point just to see if which mode you are in real life.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Comedy Goldsmith
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| It's genuinely interesting to see how many posters on this thread have essentially leapt to the defence of Snow Factor, Braehead, and their unique helmet policy. |
Well, I think many were actually defending:
1) The facts
2) Common Sense
3) The Ski Helmet Industry - who you seemed to be accusing of dishonesty with no evidence.
4) Braehead - for taking what you seem to think is a venal rather than safety orientated decision - and their right to "My Gaff, My Rules..."
5) Megamum - from your silly accusation that she is Braehead's PR Poodle.
And if you think that being inside a large fridge is a great place to capture
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| the spirit and freedom of skiing |
you need to get out to the Alps more... 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I misread this thread title as 'Barehead snow dome are enforcing helmets' - ironic I thought.
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Its my personal safety not anyone else’s so it should be my choice.
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Nobody is making you, you have a choice not to attend their facility and express to them your reason for not being there. I would however see a neck specialis as if you find 200-400g as an overbearing heavy weight you may have other issues.
Helmets are a personal choice for adults in 99% of the locations in the world that offer skiing
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Helmets are a personal choice for adults in 99% of the locations in the world that offer skiing
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As it should be. However if grumpy dinosaurs like me don't moan about the 1% we might find ourselves without that choice in 10yrs. First its snowdomes, then some HSE nut at Cairgorm leisure world plc or whatever they are called these days will think "If it is essential in a fridge then our slopes are steeper/longer/have rocks so we must do the same."
The same argument would apply, it is "their" lifts so they can make it a condition of use if they want. That doesn't mean it is necessary.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
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Its my personal safety not anyone else’s so it should be my choice.
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Nobody is making you, you have a choice not to attend their facility and express to them your reason for not being there. I would however see a neck specialis as if you find 200-400g as an overbearing heavy weight you may have other issues.
Helmets are a personal choice for adults in 99% of the locations in the world that offer skiing |
I don't find it an overbearing weight I find it an annoyance that there is no need for.
But if you actually read my post properly youd see that wasnt my point anyway, my point was that they are so over efficacious about wearing helmets yet they fail to provide qualified first aiders at the center for when people actually have accidents. Id imagine that the majority of accidents in snowdomes dont involve head injuries but more likely injuries that could be helped by the aid of a qualified professional
So in my mind they have their priorities completely wrong.
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It's true that helmets are not a replacement for experience and competence on the part of slope staff, I don't think anyone could argue that.
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FAQ
