 Poster: A snowHead
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On the embarrassment issue. I've skied off-piste with mates occasionally (officially "back/side country" on my side of the pond).
Each and every time, I asked WHY we choose the specific route, the specific aspect, the avi risk as a result of that. Not a single time the "leader" (person who chose the route) were ever defensive. Everyone welcomes the chance of discussion, to be sure no risk factor were overlooked.
Based on my good experience, I would not hesitate to question a guide's choice of routes.
Granted, if the avi risk is 1, I might not bother to ask quite so much detail.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@James the Last,
Suppose many of us are guilty at some time of misinterpreting something typed on the internet, epspecially me. Can I suggest you read what I write and try not to read something (for the second time in one week) into it like me wishing harm on others, despite what you say it is offending.
I didn't say I would rather risk my life than get stick from friends I was just admitting I'm not sure wether I would have called the ski instructor out. It's unlikely I would ever get myself in that position anyway as I only use fully qualified guides for the risky stuff not ski instructors.
If I took out all offpiste risk I'd be better off selling all my offpiste equipment and staying on the piste, knowing my luck I'd then probably get hit by an avalanche that spills over onto the piste. 
I'll ski with anybody but yes you are probably right, after hours of frantically checking equipment, weather reports etc without actually skiing I'd probably give up on you.
I see this as a discussion for people to share thoughts and learn something out of this, I'm struggling to see what you bring to the discussion. Suspect you have a fear of skiing offpiste and therefore don't ski offpiste. I respect that decision, you might well live longer than I but should we try to push our level of risk acceptance onto others?
There have been a few times in my life when I wasn't happy with how a group was operating and expressed my conerns at the time, didn't do anymore skiing or mountain trekking with those people again. Unfortunately sometimes you only realise this when deep into a tour and there's no quick get out of jail card (Admin's story is a good example of this).
Suspect the answer to all this could be to improve your experience and knowledge so that you and the group are in a position to make your own judgements but not to be so overly cautious that all the fun is killed and you only spend the day traversing on a treasure hunt without finding anything. It's a difficult balance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| I've got to admit even with my bit of backcountry experience I'm not certain I would have called the Tignes ski instructor out on that day had I been in his group. I would have probably thought he's been around a while so he will have local knowledge and know where to take risks that go against rules as the rules are not deeply slope area specific but pretty broad. If someon was at a level that they would easily call him out then that person wouldn't need him in the first place. If you called him out and then back tracked to the piste but they skied down safetly how much stick would you get as Apres Ski? |
@DB, seems they did ski that slope earlier in the day without incident.
That's should put to rest of the "stick at the Apres" question. As you had argued convincingly in earlier posts, just because the group had skied it successfully isn't an indication that is safe. They may have just been lucky. That's not something the group should have bragged about at the Apres.
(Had the group discussed the risk and decided it's acceptable, but you decide it's not acceptable for you, you WILL have to live with that decision, and count your sticks. But that's different from NOT raising the question on the risk level prior)
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Of course if you have to rely on some people to follow some rule for your safety, perhaps that's less than wise.
The threat is the environment in total, not just the bit which would be there if there were no other humans around. Other people are part of the calculation. Assume they're crazies. That also works for financial advice, which I'm not qualified to give either.
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On the apres thing, I think that was a good point which I understood. These things are always (as someone said) less than clear cut, and those things are a factor. I'd say people who deny it are probably more likely to feel that pressure.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@James the Last, We nearly all take risks to avoid embarrassment. That might simply mean driving over the speed limit to avoid being late. I don't think you can be black and white about it.
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@DB, If I were to ski off-piste then I would learn the etiquette and get properly trained as well as having all the kit. However, I don't ski off piste.
Back to the two group scenario, my comments relate to a situation where the risk is already too high. I.e.not to a situation where the lower party would probably have been OK but for the higher group.
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Going along with the group, whether to avoid embarrassment or simply not wanting to be seen as causing a problem, is one of the key heuristic traps in off piste skiing. Same with the "halo effect" - assuming a leader or guide can't be wrong.
These are key lessons learned from other risky environments and can be equally applied to off piste skiing. No need to bash each other for falling into the traps - it's simply human nature. The best defence is education so we can recognise them.
https://m.ellis-brigham.com/blogs/news-and-blogs/backcountry-what-are-heuristic-traps
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@DB, If I were to ski off-piste then I would learn the etiquette and get properly trained as well as having all the kit. However, I don't ski off piste.
Back to the two group scenario, my comments relate to a situation where the risk is already too high. I.e.not to a situation where the lower party would probably have been OK but for the higher group. |
Please define "where the risk is already too high" and how you would determine that.
Surprised that people who don't even ski off piste or have done any form of off-piste training spend so much time vehemently discussing avalanches.
Here's the sort of stuff I like doing ......
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2519686&highlight=wildspitze#2519686
The Apres Ski thing isn't embarassment (I'm not that fragile) it's the self torture for missing a good line with great snow. Great powder days are few and far between. Similar to the time I once cut a ski touring trip short leaving a day early because the snow was wet with rain and a lot more rain at lower levels was forecast. Overnight the temps suddenly dropped and a lot of snow not rain fell. My ski touring buddies who stayed had one of the best powder days ever and also had a lot of fun ribbing those of us who left early (I would have done the same to them).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yo @DB, how goes it? Nice to see the Wildspitze post again. Hope you're well and have you heard from Steve and Mick? Out in Obergurgl at Easter.
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A lot of criticism for the unfortunate instructor here. What was he thinking etc? But to be fair when you've been out for a guided day and look back on what you did, it is invariably slopes that were cautioned against in avalanche bulletin. High, cold, shady, N-facing etc. I haven't been on Lavachet wall but many times on N face of Rendl which I understand also has bad reputation for avalanches. That instructor may well have safety brought clients down that slope scores of times at same risk level and unfortunately got caught out.
Not justifying anything. But just saying in real life things more complex
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DB wrote: |
| ......Surprised that people who don't even ski off piste or have done any form of off-piste training spend so much time vehemently discussing avalanches........ |
+1
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There are two factors to the accident that will hopefully be answered in the official report... perhaps they are linked.
Why did the 5th member of the group bail and not do this run?
Did they unclip and walk the traverse on their first descent of the Wall? If so, why?
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| That instructor may well have safety brought clients down that slope scores of times at same risk level and unfortunately got caught out. |
Hmmm, if that's how people think about avalanche risk then we have a problem. The is a lot more to avalanche risk assessment than the number on the bulletin board, that's just the headline. If people go around thinking that, 'this slope is safe if it's Cat 3' then there'll be a lot of accidents. I used* to worry that people would dig a pit and assume that was enough and off they went. Now people don't even bother to dig a pit to find out what general layers are in the snowpack.
As a 'tourist', when I arrive in a resort I've got little knowledge of what the snowpack is like, I'll have checked weather reports, forecasts and monitored the avalanche bulletins but if you don't have a look in the snowpack yourself, how will you ever know? It's also worth a chat with the Pisteurs. My last trip was to Sainte Foy and at the top of the L'Aiguille lift I wandered over to the pisteurs hut to ask some advice. We had a nice 20 minute chat about what I'd planned for the long weekend, discussed the snowpack, what the weather would do to various aspects and they pointed out some potential dangers I'd not considered (though they were obvious when pointed out on my map). It was nice to have my decisions and thoughts confirmed as reasonable and they seemed pleased that someone had actually come into their hut to discuss things.
*when I was living in the Alps, I'm a desk monkey now......
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You know it makes sense.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| @DBBack to the two group scenario, my comments relate to a situation where the risk is already too high. I.e.not to a situation where the lower party would probably have been OK but for the higher group. |
I think you're creating a binary situation which isn't very realistic, the fact this group had already skied this slope that morning shows it wouldn't necessarily avalanche as soon as someone set foot on it. As davidof and others have pointed out, this was caused by "something" triggering/fracturing the weak layer embedded in the snowpack, it wasn't just triggered by additional weight.
In your fictional scenario, there are two parties on an avalanche prone slope. Despite it being avalanche prone, neither party will definitely trigger the slope to avalanche. The upper party have a duty of care not to trigger an avalanche on the party below and should they trigger one will be apportioned part of the lions share of the blame. There's as such etiquette for off-piste as there is for on-piste. You shouldn't drop into a slope above a party due the risk of triggering something onto them but equally you shouldn't cut into a slope below another party. You've no idea what they are doing (they may be doing a ski cut) and you are putting yourself in danger. The best on piste analogy I can come up with is popping back onto a piste from a bit o of-piste without checking there is no one above you. If the skier on the piste clatters into you it is, on paper, their fault as they are the uphill skier but you put yourself in the dangerous position.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
early reports suggested it had been triggered by a group higher up but that was subsequently corrected. If it had it would have been the upper group's fault. Safe protocol says you don't drop in on risky slopes above other people not least because they might not see you are even there.
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On more than one occasion I have been with a guide at the top of a slope and some other group has wandered onto the slope below us. Being above does not automatically make you to blame, no more than going into the back of someone's car is always your fault to bring the obligatory car analogy in. It may be that most of the time you are at fault, but it is not always the case and without the full facts one should never jump to conclusions.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| ......Surprised that people who don't even ski off piste or have done any form of off-piste training spend so much time vehemently discussing avalanches........ |
+1 |
Because at least some of them are wannabe off-pisters?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Kelskii wrote: |
| Yo @DB, how goes it? Nice to see the Wildspitze post again. Hope you're well and have you heard from Steve and Mick? Out in Obergurgl at Easter. |
Hi Kelskii,
Great to hear from you.
Been busy on the new house so time and money have been short but I'm itching to get up some more big peaks especially after seeing the Wildspitze trip report again.
We might be up for something the week before easter or in April. I'll drop you a PM.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@galpinos,
Great point about asking for advice from the locals, when we do weekend touring trips we always ask the people running the accommodation as they often know where the risks are, which tours will work best and where the best powder is.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 21-02-17 12:13; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Weathercam wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| ......Surprised that people who don't even ski off piste or have done any form of off-piste training spend so much time vehemently discussing avalanches........ |
+1 |
Because at least some of them are wannabe off-pisters? |
It's great that people who want to ski offpiste take an interest, they often ask some really good questions and hey we all started somewhere.
What I don't appreciate is people who have no interest of doing offpiste trying to draw those who are exchanging good information into bickering matches.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@DB, fair enough
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Two quick points. You would need a very, very good reason for knowingly skiing above another party in steep terrain. I would contemplate that only if my own safety were at risk as a result of remaining where I was. That might occur if I was committed to a route in the spring with rising temperatures. That one remains theoretical. In a couple of hundred days of unguided off piste skiing, I've never had a reason to drop in on someone else.
Second point. If you repeatedly ski slopes named on the avalanche bulletin at higher danger levels then you are going to get slid sooner or later. I can accept that some people have a higher degree of skill than others in managing avalanche hazard and may be able to disregard the bulletin periodically. Furthermore, sometimes it is just wrong. I was lucky enough to have 50cm of snow turn up in Andermatt a few years back with much less wind than was forecast and consequently the risk was much lower than the advertised 3 (more of a "high 2"). But for most of us, most of the time, those things are exceptions and tools like the reduction method work very effectively.
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| DB wrote: |
... Surprised that people who don't even ski off piste or have done any form of off-piste training spend so much time vehemently discussing avalanche
...What I don't appreciate is people who have no interest of doing offpiste trying to draw those who are exchanging good information into bickering matches. |
Would you like to draw up rules with some sort of minimum qualification level?
If you count yourself as an expert, then rather like the mountain, I don't know that.
That leaves what you say, which should make sense without knowing your qualifications.
wannabe off-pisters
Come on - anyone who skis in North America is often "off piste", it's not some sort of priesthood you can keep the uninitiated out of.
This whole thread is about a novice (ski school instructor) group.
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It's not advisable, but I do ski quite a lot of reasonably benign off piste terrain on my own (mainly well known forest areas with low slope angles). This did make me realise something... knowing that I was on my own made me really think about lines and look out for any micro terrain traps, possible danger points etc to a much greater extent than I had previously done when skiing with groups.
So why was I not that ultra cautious when I was with other skiers even when caught up in the moment?
Partly because skiing any steeper terrain involves more risk and if you want to do it then accepting that is part of the game. But the constant vigilance should be part of your every day ski mode, islands of safety always in your mind, ensuring that you are not causing greater risk to any other members of your group by your choice of line.
It's now been 4 years since I've been in any sort of slide so something has worked for me. My sHs name wasn't changed to Avalanche Poodle that time for nothing
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| philwig wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
... Surprised that people who don't even ski off piste or have done any form of off-piste training spend so much time vehemently discussing avalanche
...What I don't appreciate is people who have no interest of doing offpiste trying to draw those who are exchanging good information into bickering matches. |
Would you like to draw up rules with some sort of minimum qualification level?
If you count yourself as an expert, then rather like the mountain, I don't know that.
That leaves what you say, which should make sense without knowing your qualifications. |
Where did I say I was an expert, is this an expert forum? No I don't want it to be just what I say, looking to swap tips and experiences with other like minded people.
Think I've made it clear what my experience is (Avi training, leading easier skitours into the back country, more difficult ski tours 3000m+ with guides ) and backed it up with trip reports as others have.
When someone adamantly hangs onto to their point in a thread about offpiste safety but basically they have no trainning or experience and it turns out to be incorrect doesn't that just make the thread worthless as it confuses anyone trying to learn from it?
The people who have called me out on points so far have been totally inexperienced, please tell me you're not another. I'm not the only one the inexperienced are debating with either.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 21-02-17 14:59; edited 1 time in total
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| philwig wrote: |
wannabe off-pisters
Come on - anyone who skis in North America is often "off piste", it's not some sort of priesthood you can keep the uninitiated out of.
This whole thread is about a novice (ski school instructor) group. |
Nobody is trying to keep anyone away from the offpiste.
Once skied with a group of American skiers from Epicski in St Anton. Offpiste to them was inbounds avi controlled slopes where many didn't even have avi equipment.
.... but that's not the same as here in Europe is it?
This whole thread is about 4 human beings who died and how we as skiers/boarders won't also end up the same way.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I might be in the minority here or maybe just naive. I know next to zero about avalanche risk. I dont understand snow layers or how wind and which way the slope faces increases risk. For this reason I dont ski off-piste on my own and ski with Off piste specific schools. I am paying a qualified ski company and guide to study these things. Am I wrong?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Scarpa,
It's still on my list to get over and see you two again, bet you know the offpiste there like the back of your hand now.
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Well you could be as we've seen instructors and guides aren't infallible. Are you not in the least bit curious? By paying a guide you haven't miraculously transferred your own risk. You might have mitigated it somewhat though.
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You know it makes sense.
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@bar shaker, Your first question has been answered widely in the the communiques from the Prefect and in the Press. The 5th member dropped his board and the instructor told him to wait and he would retrieve and return it to him.
Can't answer your second question - don't do the sideways thing.
@philwig,
| Quote: |
This whole thread is about a novice (ski school instructor) group
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I don't think that's the case, that slope is not one for novices or first time off pisters.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mk28 wrote: |
| I might be in the minority here or maybe just naive. I know next to zero about avalanche risk. I dont understand snow layers or how wind and which way the slope faces increases risk. For this reason I dont ski off-piste on my own and ski with Off piste specific schools. I am paying a qualified ski company and guide to study these things. Am I wrong? |
You're doing a lot better than many do (i.e. those who ski offpiste above other people without avy equipment totally unaware of the risks). In most cases if something went wrong the guide would deal with it.
If you want to make things safer .....
As said before guides don't have a halo what would you do if the guide got hit by an avalanche? Do you know how to contact the emergency services? Can you use your avi equipment? Would you remember the last point you saw the guide before he went under the snow? Good ski instructors aren't always good guides, guides go through many years of training with a big focus on offpiste safety. I always ask about their qualifications and experience and would rather pay a little more for a qualified guide than a ski instructor (sometimes the price is the same which would totally pee me off if I were a UIAGM guide).
Just to add - all guides I've hired were more than happy to discuss and give info when they have the time (e.g. on the chairlift, while skiing up on a skitour or in the hut on a multi-day tour)
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 21-02-17 15:43; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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@DB, Well a few more little areas  But have some locals who have alerted us to some proper back of the mountain lines, will wait to do it with people who really know the area though. Looking forward to a visit
@mk28, As DB says, there is a big difference between a proper qualified mountain guide and some of the people employed by local off piste guided group businesses (usually local instructors). In Tignes I saw our 'guide' swept down when cutting a corniced top to a gully after a hike, then the whole ridge behind two groups (about 20 people in all) slid, we were all about 10 feet from the considerable river of snow flowing past us and over the edge. He was very lucky, lost a pole but kept on the surface. This was in a total blizzard, OK, the 1km bowl below us was amazing with knee deep fresh once we had skied the avi debris, but we all decided to retire to forest skiing for the rest of the day.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 21-02-17 15:22; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My phone has an SOS button on the side, you can program this to any number so I put the local mountain rescue in it. Failing that, stick it in your phone with AAA Mountain Rescue as the name, that way it is top of your contact list thus cutting time searching for it. Any make sure that you know your approx location although they may be able to pinpoint your position through the phone.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 21-02-17 15:21; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| chocksaway wrote: |
@bar shaker, Your first question has been answered widely in the the communiques from the Prefect and in the Press. The 5th member dropped his board and the instructor told him to wait and he would retrieve and return it to him.
Can't answer your second question - don't do the sideways thing.
@philwig,
| Quote: |
This whole thread is about a novice (ski school instructor) group
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I don't think that's the case, that slope is not one for novices or first time off pisters. |
Thanks for the update. The info wasn't in the last official report that I read.
I agree with you on the ability needed to ski or board the Wall.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Dropping that snowboard was probably the best mistake of his life 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| My phone has an SOS button on the side, you can program this to any number so I put the local mountain rescue in it. |
I thought about doing that but then decided against it as I'd probably end up ringing them up drunk at 3 am telling them how much I loved them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Some Samsung phones have emergency settings. Hold down power button then tap emergency mode . Phone goes into greyscale power saving mode and only essential apps are available. Internet, text, torch, emergency alarm and share my location which will send an sms with GPS coordinates to your ICE contacts. You can add one more app if you wish. You can also store any important medical information and make an emergency call.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
My phone has an SOS button on the side, you can program this to any number so I put the local mountain rescue in it. Failing that, stick it in your phone with AAA Mountain Rescue as the name, that way it is top of your contact list thus cutting time searching for it. Any make sure that you know your approx location although they may be able to pinpoint your position through the phone.
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It's 2017, what is all this rubbish about knowing your "approximate" location. Make sure you have a GPS app installed on your phone and then when you call the mountain rescue you can tell them precisely where you are.
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It is. But I've found there are still quite a few places where there's no 'phone signal.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@jabuzzard, You are right, although in the mountains a lot of terrain can obstruct the reading. But one problem with using the location apps, especially in the high accuracy setting, is that it does use a lot more battery life. Factor in the cold conditions and this could be a deal breaker. I have a Garmen GPS unit which although more weight to carry I would trust more (although phone apps do seem to test out within metres of the actual location).
But if I could not get a reading I would like to know the name of the couloir I was in, local mountain rescue would probably know where it was instantly.
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@Scarpa, the emergency setting on mine composes a 'help me' text message which includes the GPS coordinates, but I haven't checked how accurate they are. EDIT=spot on perfect here.
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FAQ
