 Poster: A snowHead
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SCGB membership numbers update ...
Perhaps prompted by the posting on the previous page (1 Nov) ... the SCGB has now changed its claim on Facebook from "over 33,000" members to "over 29,000" members.
But, as explained on 1 November, the actual figure - using the Club's own definition of 2 family members per subscription - must be below 23,000. [one wonders how many membership cards have been issued, and how many membership ID numbers are currently 'live']
[end of maths]
P.S. It's worth bearing in mind that SCGB membership statistics this year are influenced by the SCGB's marketing gambit (since last year) of admitting 'beginners' at a rate of £24 per annum, rather than the usual £63. This is a great bargain, since it includes the magazine and other benefits (apart from the resort leading, which is enjoyed by approximately 10% to 15% of members paying the full rate) ... heavily subsidised by the regular/loyal membership.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This little item may be of interest ...
"SCGB 'Picks Up Tab' for Members' Drinks"
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152838156650761&set=gm.1513972195556214&type=1&theater
... to members of the snowHeads Club of Great Britain
It concerns ...
"Test drive skis before you buy"
Re: http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.aspx?storyID=9311#.VGB0kGfOoig
| Quote: |
Ski geeks! Join us in Braehead and Tamworth, and be amongst the first in the country to try out as many new-season skis as you can fit into one session...
Ellis Brigham logo
The UK’s biggest and most hassle-free demo event returns for the sixth year, with over 100 skis to test from leading brands Atomic, Armada, DPS, Blizzard, Head, Line, Nordica, Rossignol, Salomon, and Whitedot. What's more, the extremely knowledgeable crew of Ellis Brigham will be on hand to help you find the right skis for you (or just find out more about what you're testing).
There will be skis for all abilities, as well as discounted slope time, plus the offer of a refund on your slope time if you do end up buying a pair of skis (terms and conditions apply).
Ski Club members can also take advantage of their own slopetime discount, and we'll be picking up the tab for members' drinks at the bar too. We hope to see you there! |
Yours sincerely
CG
Secretary-General
Ski Hub of Great Britain
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just been wondering, Does anyone know who it is that is actually taking SCGB to court next month? Plus, how much are the ESF involved in this action?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@snowcrazy, can't say exactly (I think it's reported somewhere) but the Club has officially reported that the head of the ESF in Val d'Isere is a party to the action and is claiming financial compensation for loss of business.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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^ this.....
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| @snowcrazy, can't say exactly (I think it's reported somewhere) but the Club has officially reported that the head of the ESF in Val d'Isere is a party to the action and is claiming financial compensation for loss of business. |
It should be noted that it is very standard in France to have a partie civile in any French criminal prosecution and it is not (necessarily) indicative of any issue between the ESF and SCGB. The ESF, as the largest body in Val d'Isere would be representing the interests of ski instructors in general as the law is there, amongst other things, to protect the ski instructing profession.
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@davidof, An interesting point. I wonder why it is that the ESF have claimed loose of income in this case, at least according to what one person has told me (I do not know if this is actually true). This is why I believe they must be a major player in this complaint, but I could be wrong.
I have had a long association with the ESF through racing which I think they organize very well. (1000 kids down four race pistes in March between 8am and noon is very impressive in anyones books.) So I am very disappointed with them for being part of this action even if I can see they have a case on certain aspects of what the SCGB are doing.
To some degree I can understand the ESF complaint. I have stood at the meeting point for ski lessons and also the SCGB which use an area nearby in Les Arcs, Tignes and Val d'Isere and seen the SCGB leaders giving out transcievers as if they were guides. The SCGB take people off piste in areas they often do not know and never give out full safety gear. Crazy! I know the ESF are not prefect, far from it, but in recent years they normally give each member of there groups a safety backpack with all the basic gear when going offpiste. I think that the authorities will not look very favourably on the SCGB going against local piste authority advice like this. If you are introducing people to off piste then by it's very nature you are teaching them and this is not something SCGB are allowed to do. Yet under different names these kind of days still appear on the SCGB programme in many resorts.
Due to the way SCGB is organized it really is know different in many ways to a tour company wrapped up in a nice blue jacket. If you pull away the dressing it is a business and so really should have to follow the same rules as tour operators. IMO it stopped being a real club about 15 years ago, maybe more.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
@davidof, An interesting point. I wonder why it is that the ESF have claimed loose of income in this case, at least according to what one person has told me (I do not know if this is actually true). This is why I believe they must be a major player in this complaint, but I could be wrong.
I have had a long association with the ESF through racing which I think they organize very well. (1000 kids down four race pistes in March between 8am and noon is very impressive in anyones books.) So I am very disappointed with them for being part of this action even if I can see they have a case on certain aspects of what the SCGB are doing.
To some degree I can understand the ESF complaint. I have stood at the meeting point for ski lessons and also the SCGB which use an area nearby in Les Arcs, Tignes and Val d'Isere and seen the SCGB leaders giving out transcievers as if they were guides. The SCGB take people off piste in areas they often do not know and never give out full safety gear. Crazy! I know the ESF are not prefect, far from it, but in recent years they normally give each member of there groups a safety backpack with all the basic gear when going offpiste. I think that the authorities will not look very favourably on the SCGB going against local piste authority advice like this. If you are introducing people to off piste then by it's very nature you are teaching them and this is not something SCGB are allowed to do. Yet under different names these kind of days still appear on the SCGB programme in many resorts.
Due to the way SCGB is organized it really is know different in many ways to a tour company wrapped up in a nice blue jacket. If you pull away the dressing it is a business and so really should have to follow the same rules as tour operators. IMO it stopped being a real club about 15 years ago, maybe more. |
Ehhh.... no, no & no.
Firstly, the SCGB do not offer introduction to off piste days. They offer an introduction to the resort day, which is as it's name suggests involves a look around the main runs of a resort. The reps do not offer teaching, in fact, they explicitly state they won't & can't offer teaching each morning in their 'safety statement' thingy that is read to the scgb skiing group each day. Finally, I think the SCGB acts like a club, granted a very large, diverse club, but a club nonetheless. As a club it has a completely different ethos to tour companies, and it's essentially this providing of services by members for members, which is exactly the issue ESF have with them (us) in the first place.
I do take your points about safety equipment though, and I agree it is pretty silly (though pragmatic I suppose) to loan out transceivers but not shovel, probes & backpacks to non equipped members.
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@horgand, you must be aware (are you not aware?) that the SCGB or its reps have been sued and prosecuted repeatedly in connection with its off-piste repping/leadership. Dishing out waivers, getting signatures etc. ... and/or claiming that 'reps do not assess your ability, your safety is your own responsibility' is ... [I think we can all complete the sentence]
You must be aware by now that 3 skiers are known to have died in these activities [over a time-frame approaching 30 years], according to the limited documentation I have seen. Two fatalities (over 20 years apart) have been in Verbier. etc. etc.
The SCGB was being told by ski experts in the late 1980s that this is not a sustainable way to do things. The SCGB could and should have become the national training organisation of ski instructors, if not the training body for ski-mountaineering guides (and similar). It can't just make up its own rules and consider itself 'above the law'. This isn't the boy scouts movement, and it's not sensible to be a pantomime version of the British Empire.
I'm not necessarily saying that there wasn't an acceptable amateur way of doing things in the old days. But the 21st century was anticipated some decades ago.
"As a club it has a completely different ethos to tour companies ..." Your words - think about them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
| @davidof, An interesting point. I wonder why it is that the ESF have claimed loose of income in this case, at least according to what one person has told me (I do not know if this is actually true). This is why I believe they must be a major player in this complaint, but I could be wrong. |
I don't know.
For the Le Ski case I was told that the ESF were pretty much obliged to get on board and defend their rights or the state would not bother prosecuting infractions in the future.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@horgand, I am starting to wonder how much you really know about how the SCGB Leading is run. Is what you are saying actual fact or just your opinion.
I can state for a FACT that the SCGB do run 'Introduction to Off Piste' days. They may not call it that any more, but the day is aimed at those who have either never skied off piste or have only limited experience. On these days they give out Trancievers (BUT NOT SHOVEL and PROBES!). As most if not all those attending have not used the transciever before they normally show them (teach them) how to use it.
When starting skiing they have to explain the safety of off piste skiing (teaching again) or they would be negliegent to just say follow me to people with little exprience heading off piste. Remember they are 'Leading' for an organization not just skiing with their mates. When people fall over (we all do), they have to explain (teach) them what they are doing wrong and encourage them to improve so they do not keep the group waiting.
This is the reality of off piste leading for most people and to try and say they are not teaching it rediculous. It would be totally irrespossible for a SCGB Leader to take people off piste without being sure the people with them can cope with the conditions, know how to use the safety equipment and be sure they can help if someone has a problem. Even on the more advanced days these basic safety points would still be required. Good skiers also need reminding of what to do in an emergency.
As for not making sure the 'whole' group has the necessary equipment to be going off piste in the first place. Best not to get me started on that argument. In the ski resorts I normally ski at almost every 'off piste' entry point these days there are signs telling you to have ALL the correct emergency gear, not just some of it. Yet the SCGB who like to pretend they 'represent skiers' in the UK blatantly go against 'Local Piste Authority' advice (which could invalidate your Insurance) and allow their members to ski off piste without all the correct equipment.
In most Class A and B resorts (SCGB gradings) this kind of day takes place at least once a week. Sometimes twice. Even on the harder 'on piste' days I would expect it is very difficult despite what the Leaders might say at the start of the day for them not to givee tips (teaching) to those in their group.
These are all things most of us do with our friends to help them improve. There is nothing wrong with that. Skiing is a social activity. My point being, you can do it with your friends without any problems. BUT if you have a 'Contract of Employment' with the SCGB as a Leader for a week. two weeks, three weeks or longer then that is work even if you are badly paid (given small amount of money for expenses and other perks).
The ESF and others see the SCGB giving out gear right beside them as if they are a Ski School. No wonder they think they are loosing business. IF people have never been off piste before they should first go on a course and learn to do it safely, then join a group of friends to have fun. This is what we do most of the season. People take lessons and learn the basics then come and joins us. Everyone has fun! 
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@snowcrazy, please find a typical reps programme below for Verbier. Will you kindly show me where it says 'Introduction to off piste day'?, because I can't find it?
Ski Club Leader's programme
Day Event Standard Meeting time Meeting place
Sunday Explore Verbier All welcome (except beginners) 9.30am Bottom of the Medran Lift
Monday Blitzing the Blacks Advanced/expert 9.30am Bottom of the Medran Lift
Tuesday Big Day Out Strong intermediate 9.30am Bottom of the Medran Lift
Wednesday Mountain Highs and Lows Intermediate - on piste 9.30am Bottom of the Medran Lift
Thursday Day Trip? / Mountain Guide? Advanced/expert Check with Leader Check with Leader
Friday Last Day Requests Strong intermediate 9.30am Bottom of the Medran Lift
Saturday Leader's Day Off N/A N/A N/A
As for your point, that the reps have to teach SCGB members, this simply is not true. What they do is grade members (assess them) and ski areas commensurate with the level they said they would ski that day e.g. Strong Intermediate on Tuesday for Verbier above. Any member who comes along and who can't ski to the level notified for that day & is holding up the group, is politely asked to come back on an easier day. I have skied with the SCGB on loads of occasions, with many different reps, and I have yet to see any rep coach or teach a member, but I have seen many slower members being asked to come back on easier days on several occasions.
p.s. the reason one office of the ESF are probably claiming that the SCGB might be impacting on their business, is that they see people meeting a rep in the morning, who briefs them on safety, loans them a bleeper if necessary, and then gets them to follow them around the resort, and they realise that they don't do much (any) more themselves!! Zut alors!!
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You know it makes sense.
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@horgand, Sorry to say. but whilst your example of Verbier might be correct when you were there, I have experienced 'Introduction to Off Piste days in the way I have described. As I said, it is a fact that Leader's do take people (and not just members, see below) off piste for an introduction. I could just as easily look up old records and post a leader's programme here which would include an 'Off Piste' Introduction day.
From memory, the Leaders manual states: 'The recommendation to leaders is that their programmes have two days at lower, intermediate and advanced levels. These should be a mix of easy days and harder days some of which may be off piste with or without a guide. When any off piste is undertaken the leaders must adhere to the recommended ratio of leader to group members (note not Club members) of max, 1 : 8 and all should be equip with a transceiver and one backmarkers pack per group. (This is only from memory. Might have changed this year. IF any SCGB leaders reading this wish to put the latest version of what the Leader's manual says please do.)
They still do not mention anything about ALL members of a group having proper safety gear. IMO to not demonstrate correct practise and give all group members the recommended (by piste security) full safety gear is leaving the SCGB open to a claim of negligence should anyone be caught in an avalanche. Have you ever tried digging in an avalanche field. I have and even with the correct shovel it is very difficult. Without the correct equipment the person buried is unlikely to be rescued in time.
Basically the SCGB Leader can choose his own programme and what he does each day as long as he follows the stated guidelines. Just because you have not been on an 'Introduction to Off Piste day' does not mean they do not take place.
I have seen a number of Leaders giving tips (teaching) when taking groups. Nothing wrong with that as it makes for a better day out, but the rules do say it is not allowed.
You say you have seen reps: 'who briefs them on safety, loans them a bleeper'. Briefing on safety is a form of teaching if they have never used a Transceiver before. Not much point in giving it to someone if you do not teach them how to use it. If you DO NOT teach them how to use it later in the day this could cause a real problem if someone needed to rescued. So in reality the Leader is teaching right in front of the ESF or other ski schools. Catch 22 really!. Hence I would suggest this is one of the reasons why the ESF and others have complained and this case is now taking place.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
I have seen a number of Leaders giving tips (teaching) when taking groups. Nothing wrong with that as it makes for a better day out, but the rules do say it is not allowed. |
Which rules?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@davidof, not really rules from the SCGB for the Leaders. more like guidelines in their Leaders's Manual which they give out each year before a leader starts working in resorts. But the SCGB do expect Leaders to follow what is in the manual. I am sure the French and now Italians would say it is a 'Rule' that they should not be teaching (even giving tips). But that is because they want you to send everyone to them for lessons. I think this is one of their complaints. Some Ski Instructors I know, not just the ESF have told me they have seen the SCGB leaders teaching. No idea if that is true, but this is what they say and is part of the whole issue.
Another issue is regarding who actually skis with the SCGB leaders.
@horgand, what you say about the SCGB being a club and the leaders service only being for members. This is not really correct when you look at the details.
The SCGB is a Limited Company, no question of this. It is registered at Company House. The Fresh Tracks Holidays is a Tour Company and also has some slightly different name for accounting purposes (sorry cannot remember the correct title), but when annual accounts are submitted and published they are combined for members to review. It is clear from these accounts that Fresh Tracks does make a profit which is then used to support the club side of the business including the leaders programme. Members of the ski club also pay a membership fee and part of this fee is used to pay for this advertised leaders service. Members are therefore indirectly paying for the leaders service both for members and potential members in resorts plus for all those that attended Fresh Tracks holidays.
All people that wish to go on a Fresh Tracks holiday MUST join the ski club as part of the add on charges for the holiday. A person going on a fresh tracks holiday cannot opt out of joining the club at the same time. They are in effect forced to join the club even if they do not wish to do so in order to attend the holiday. They must then cancel there membership charge for the coming year or it will just keep being paid by direct debit.
If you are paying for a service through your club membership fee or holiday fee and this service is advertised as an integral part of what the holiday or club provides. Then you are offering a direct service in relation to the money that a person pays and as a Limited Company that is a business arrangement not a voluntary agreement. Even if the SCGB is a Limited (not for profit) Company this is a service the Company are contracting to offer for money that has been received. What the Company (Club?) gives it's leaders in return for their work is payment in kind. As these charges to customers (members) are built into the whole package and what is given to the leaders comes out of this money, it is very difficult to claim it is just a members optional service.
I expect this is the main point of the legal case against the Leader. Is he working for a company or just taking his own members for a ski as a volunteer. If what he is doing as a Leader based in resort is seen to be working just like a Ski host for a tour company, then he must now by French law be qualified. I suggest the facts demonstrate that this is a business and therefore the SCGB Ltd are breaking a number of French laws. It will be interesting to see what a French Judge decides.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SCGB magazine - "You cannot be serious" [J. McEnroe, Wimbledon, June 1981]
The new editor of the SCGB's magazine Ski+Board Colin Nicholson has an interesting 'issue' on his hands, only two issues into taking up the red/blue pen from long-standing editor Arnie Wilson. On page 98 of the November edition is a bold promotion - marked Exclusive - trailing an interview with the disgraced (though said to be launching a legal appeal) Olympian and violinist Vanessa Mae. Mae skied for Thailand at Sochi, since she did not reach the qualifying standard of the British team.
The feature, promised for the December issue of Ski+Board - showing the headline "Vanessa Mae looks to hit a new skiing peak" - will reveal "how her Olympic performance has inspired her to have a go at the World Championships this coming February".
There may be a problem.
Vanessa Mae is, as recently reported, banned by the FIS from ski racing for 4 years. The FIS has judged her to have manipulated the results of qualifying races for the Sochi Olympics, in collusion with race officials. BBC report ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/winter-sports/30005830
She is appealing the FIS verdict ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/winter-sports/30074880
So, until that appeal process is over, Vanessa Mae's fate isn't certain. As things stand, there's no way she can compete at the World Championships
What is certain is that the FIS declared last Julythat four Slovenian officials had been suspended for rigging the results of the races in which Mae qualified. Suspicions were then raised about the famous violinist's own conduct. The Telegraph reported at the time "Mae’s manager failed to respond to requests for comment."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10963048/Four-suspended-over-Vanessa-Mae-Olympic-qualifier-race.html
So, what was the SCGB thinking ... spotlighting this controversial Olympian amidst such uncertainty?
['I think we should be told' - Ed.]
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 18-11-14 16:30; edited 3 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You know perfectly well why. Not that it isn't amusing. Just shows why print and print lead times mean print is a dying format.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| print is a dying format. |
An indisputable fact, through the ages. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_printing
"As a method of printing on cloth, the earliest surviving examples from China date to about 220."
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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To be fair to Vanessa Mae, it is far more likely that her "team" fixed the event, they probably told her something like, "look we've fixed you up a last chance to get enough points for the Olympics qualification and you have a good chance because there's no top level competition" rather than " hey we fixed it so all you have to do is go down this course a couple of times to qualify"
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I am struggling a bit with the offpiste bit earlier in the page. Either they are taking people offpiste, in which case they need to be qualified off piste guides, or they are not taking people offpiste, in which case I am struggling a bit with why the leaders course that we saw offpiste in Tignes a couple of years ago was so far from the piste assessing the ability to ski in deep powder. It is either required, or it is not. If it is required, where does a SCGB rep fit with most insurance clauses requiring anyone skiing off piste to be with a guide? I assume the SCGB offers travel insurance that covers unguided offpiste skiing if reps are going offpiste, whether they have the right equipment or not. Alternatively if the SCGB reps are all qualified offpiste guides then the local authorities will surely not have a leg to stand on?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"Skiing with the Ski Club means you can really get the most out of your time on the mountain. Leader groups provide the opportunity to ski with other members, with weekly programmes catering for different abilities. These include both on and off-piste options, so you can pick the days which suit you best." The training course covers off-piste but they are not as far as I'm aware fully qualified mountain guides or instructors so unclear and I know people who have been taken off-piste by the SCGB. Maybe they accompany members with qualified guides. The stuff about transceivers is disturbing as well and illegal in some places.
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Over the past three or four years, whenever I've skied with the SCGB leader, a guide was hired for the off-piste day and the leader made a point of not going off-piste without a guide.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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On the subject of transceivers and vilifying the SCGB for handing them out, having skied off-piste several times with the ESF a few years back I was quite horrified to find other people in the group being given beacons with absolutely no instruction on their use. Has this changed ? I had a go at the guide and he got quite irate about it which didn't make for an ideal trip. It's what put me off going with them to be honest as clearly safety wasn't very high on the list and I have used other providers since. I spoke informally to others at the time and established that it didn't appear to be a one-off incident. I had my own so wasn't too bothered personally but the principle of thinking that just giving people the safety equipment without any attempt to instruct them in it's use just stinks IMHO. It certainly would make a mockery of their claims regarding skier safety if it's a practice that's still extant
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@dsoutar, it's general though isn't it - howw many people really know how to use it in an emergency. I've had the instructional chats, read the books but I wonder how many people have been on a proper training course or do refreshers so they really know what to do in practice. I suspect the ESF knows that. In reality I get the impression that some people think they just think that are safe if they buy the equipment without any equipment or avalanche training. I've always understood the reality is that you don't want to put yourself in a situation regardless of equipment because chances of some punter with some fancy kit saving you are not good.
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
| @davidof, not really rules from the SCGB for the Leaders. more like guidelines in their Leaders's Manual which they give out each year before a leader starts working in resorts. But the SCGB do expect Leaders to follow what is in the manual. I am sure the French and now Italians would say it is a 'Rule' that they should not be teaching (even giving tips). But that is because they want you to send everyone to them for lessons. I think this is one of their complaints. Some Ski Instructors I know, not just the ESF have told me they have seen the SCGB leaders teaching. No idea if that is true, but this is what they say and is part of the whole issue. |
Ok got the bit about guidelines, thanks.
You know legally, in France at least, if they are a club they are perfectly entitled to teach, take people off piste etc. In fact an unpaid person can do far more than a ski instructor is legally supposed to do.
I wonder if the fact they don't do what "normal" (for French) ski clubs do makes them look suspicous. Also a "normal" ski club wouldn't have people out in resort all season in paid accomodation. They might have someone down for a week at most with a coach party, they might also work directly with the ESF if teaching beginners or they may be in more of a coaching/teaching role with race skiers.
For my part I'm going to be teaching kids skiing again this winter for the school... may the good lord have mercy on their souls. You don't even need a criminal record check to do this.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| [/size] |
They could present this at Albertville court to show just how amateur they really are. Ski Club Comedy Gold.
I'm still backing you to take over their magazine btw.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| To be fair to Vanessa Mae, it is far more likely that her "team" fixed the event, they probably told her something like, "look we've fixed you up a last chance to get enough points for the Olympics qualification and you have a good chance because there's no top level competition" rather than " hey we fixed it so all you have to do is go down this course a couple of times to qualify" |
I'm not sure I buy that. As a athlete she should have been all over what the points requirements were and how realistic her chances were as that's what she should have been training to. She'd already gone to Thailand as they weren't going to give her a place on the minimum standards (unlike our serious Alpine nation with its great Olympic Alpine track record (Sinexgate notwithstanding) who can afford to blackball invites).
Turns out with this and various Eurotest fiddles/backroom deals skiing isn't any nobler a sport than FIFA's football, horse racing, motor racing etc
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dsoutar wrote: |
| On the subject of transceivers and vilifying the SCGB for handing them out, having skied off-piste several times with the ESF a few years back I was quite horrified to find other people in the group being given beacons with absolutely no instruction on their use. Has this changed ? I had a go at the guide and he got quite irate about it which didn't make for an ideal trip. It's what put me off going with them to be honest as clearly safety wasn't very high on the list and I have used other providers since. I spoke informally to others at the time and established that it didn't appear to be a one-off incident. I had my own so wasn't too bothered personally but the principle of thinking that just giving people the safety equipment without any attempt to instruct them in it's use just stinks IMHO. It certainly would make a mockery of their claims regarding skier safety if it's a practice that's still extant |
My other half was taken off piste 5 days in a row by ESF in 2010 with no transceiver, shovel or probe. She was an intermediate skier at the time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| TTT wrote: |
| @dsoutar, it's general though isn't it - how many people really know how to use it in an emergency. I've had the instructional chats, read the books but I wonder how many people have been on a proper training course or do refreshers so they really know what to do in practice. I suspect the ESF knows that. |
Yeah but it's still BS if that is the ESF's or anyone else's excuse. What it really means is you won't be expected to rescue anyone, which means as someone in the group who might need to be rescued you should take it extra seriously and make your own evaluations. I know when me and my bro lend our spare transceivers (without probe & shovel) to mates we're always careful to ensure one of the two of us goes last (and are pretty conservative about terrain anyway). Pretty much the same with bash skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@davidof, Some more good info you have posted. Yes I am aware of these details. As you say. A club comes with it's leaders for a trip. They are supposed to register them with the resort for training their private group (not sure many actually do this) and then get on with their programme. At the end of the week they leave. They come with people they train all the time and are really a 'Club' working as real volunteers mostly. Normally, but not always they have a qualified person overseeing the programme. I think I am correct that in France and most other Alpine countries they have a ski leading qualification for school teachers or youth leaders. This type of qualification would not apply to the SCGB as they take mostly adults as all young people must be accompanied by a parent or legal guardian.
I do not think what the SCGB do fits into this format in any way. The people that come to ski with a leader are random. The leader is already on site and SCGB has someone in resort all season Not like a real club in any way. (And the leaders get paid in kind i.e. lift pass, accommodation, travel costs and living allowance paid IN cash (into their bank accounts) back in the UK when they have completed the leading period. I believe that is the way they receive money now. Any current Leaders please do post the exact details for this year if it has changed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dsoutar wrote: |
| On the subject of transceivers and vilifying the SCGB for handing them out, having skied off-piste several times with the ESF a few years back I was quite horrified to find other people in the group being given beacons with absolutely no instruction on their use. Has this changed ? I had a go at the guide and he got quite irate about it which didn't make for an ideal trip. It's what put me off going with them to be honest as clearly safety wasn't very high on the list and I have used other providers since. I spoke informally to others at the time and established that it didn't appear to be a one-off incident. I had my own so wasn't too bothered personally but the principle of thinking that just giving people the safety equipment without any attempt to instruct them in it's use just stinks IMHO. It certainly would make a mockery of their claims regarding skier safety if it's a practice that's still extant |
OTOH after only a 10 minute briefing none of those people would be any use in a rescue anyway; you'll be relying on the guide (or anyone in the group who already knew their stuff) anyway, so as long as all are 'findable' by transceiver the only one with extra risk is (should be) the guide.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Well, they need to train people for more than 10 minutes; I've never seen anyone trained in less than an hour. But then my transceiver stuff has all been in North America. If the instructor (I don't think these are guides) is breaking trail, then they're mostly to go down... they would be wise to ensure the rest of the party is able to deal with that.
Qualify of service is unlikely to be high if you can just declare the competition illegal.
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b]@TTT[/b], @horgand, @dsoutar, I agree with what you say about the ESF and how sometimes their Instructors still do not follow their own rules. In the case of the ESF it is not only a rule to be correctly equipped, but also a criminal offence (I believe) if they are found to be negligent by not having their group properly prepared when going off piste in the case of an accident.
There are a number of court cases taking place with ESF Instructor currently for these type of offences. If you Google this topic you can find them. If you want to see some funny photos of ESF not following the rules. Take a look on my facebook page, Les Arcs Winter from the last two seasons.
SO yes! The ESF are not perfect and some Ski Instructors do break their own rules, BUT at least they have a policy which is correct. They even sent out a DVD a short while ago telling all ESF registered Instructors what they are supposed to be doing re. safety. I know, it does not mean they will follow what they are told to do, but it is a start.
b]@Mistress Panda[/b],@TTT, @Kelskii, The SCGB policy re. leading off piste is not correct from the start. Yes, they do still lead off piste. They are not officially qualified in any way (the training course is OK, but it does not really prepare you for 'Off piste' leading) it is more like an introduction to leading off piste. Some Leaders do have BASI qualifications, but I am not aware of any SCGB Leaders (Not Guides or Instructors who work with the SCGB) that are qualified to work in France. They should give out all the safety gear, but do not. They should teach how to use the gear or why bother giving it out, even a transceiver! *Catch 22! They cannot do this as they are not allowed to teach. It is not like going with your mates. They are an official body and should set the correct example.
@clarky999, I agree, spending ten minutes is not long enough. We must spend an hour at least and with a pisteur teaching us each time we go and train. Most SCGB groups are not prepared to do this, so they really should not be going outside the protected 'piste nature' ski areas.
This is why I feel they think they are above the rules that other bodies must follow. In comparison, my niece went off piste with her race group. They were all given the right gear and taught how to use it in the avalanche park. They had a great day. Made a change from racing. The adults with them were either Race Coaches or Ski Instructors, but all very competent. The guy in charge was a Mountain Guide as well as a Ski Instructor. What a difference!
When my friends and I go off piste we are all fully equipped, even ABS bags these days. We always start the season in the avalanche park and regularly go there during the season to refresh our skills. When someone knew joins us we check that they have all the correct safety gear (not ABS, although I try to encourage everyone to get one). We normally spend some time making sure people know how to use the gear and understand off piste safety. Yes, teach them if we have to. We can do this, nobody pays us, we do not get a free lift pass. We do this for fun. Only after these steps do we then go off piste together. Normally starting on easier stuff and only when happy and if conditions are good going to harder places. Yes, I am very lucky I get to do this for most of the season.
If how I have just descibed was how the SCGB worked there would be no problem. It is not. They take people that just turn up, go to places often the 'Leader' does not know well. Are not correctly equipped. Despite what I have read by other posters, often some members of the groups I have seen are not really good enough to be skiing where they have sometimes been taken and are not sent away before they need help IMO.
This is why I believe the French authorities have a problem with what they do. Remember, no matter how you package the SCGB, they are an official body, a Limited Company by law. Not a bunch of mates out together. They have a uniformed person calling himself a leader. No matter what disclaimer you sign, at the end of the day the 'Leader' does have a duty of care for those he is taking. Therefore he should be qualified.
On piste leading by Tour Company Ski Host's has already been banned now. If you read the description on the SCGB web page of the role of a Leader, it is almost the same as the role of a Ski Host. I think the court will think the same thing. We all wait to see!
ONE final point. I have just been told that over on the SCGB forum a certain Gerry Aitken said I am lying and there is not such a thing as a 'Contract of Employment' between Ski Club Leader and the SCGB Ltd. Sorry to disappoint SCGB members that are reading this thread. I do not tell lies and this document does exist and is signed by the SCGB. Until last year this type of document was used between the SCGB and the Leaders. I do not know if it is used this year.
This is a legal document and not as I mentioned in an earlier post, 'just a voluntary agreement between to equal parties' as Gerry and the SCGB would like you to believe. I wonder what the French Court will make of such a document. Gerry if you are reading this. Please do come on here and join in this discussion, but not as someone else. Have the guts to join in as yourself. I have a question for you. Why would the SCGB require it's leaders to sign such a document if they really are 'just' volunteers giving up their time for nothing in return? Please do reply!
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
| . I think I am correct that in France and most other Alpine countries they have a ski leading qualification for school teachers or youth leaders.. |
They do, but it is not mandatory. To teach school kids you need to be on the education department's list and that requires a 1 day course. You basically need to be able to ski. Of course a lot of local (to the mountains) skiers are pretty good.
The SCGB way of working may conform to the rules. The courts will decide I suppose. It seems to be a fairly unique model which is maybe dictated by geography.
I wonder why, after 90 years they have suddenly come onto the French radar? Are they just getting caught in the TO cross fire or are the points you make about how the club has become more commercial having an impact?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@davidof, I believe it is the latter. As the SCGB is now basically a business with as I think you said, other activities added on. i.e. The club side. They will have a hard time arguing the opposite. I think it all steams from when Fresh Tracks took over. I understood why, but did not agree then and still do not agree it should have been done now.
As I said above. Leaders sign a 'Contract of Employment' with the SCGB Ltd (they might call it something different now). If they are not a business why do Leaders have to sign such a document? I think having such a document, however they want to argue it is meant to be interpreted. It shoots quite a large whole in their argument that they are not a business first and only a club second.
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[edit]As Artic Roll points out in a later post, Snowcazy Ltd does have the required information at the foot of the home page of it's web site. Please disregard this post - I've left it in only because some later sH posts would not make sense if I deleted it. Snowcrazy Ltd look like a fine business. My apologies to them, and to the forum. [/edit]
Hmm. Snowcrazy Ltd I see on the business website. With the fantastic diligence you are taking towards the SCGB, I am sure your business will beyond spot, as exemplified by your web site . Well, maybe not. I see no place of registration, or company registraion number. As you know I am sure, that is a requirement
| Quote: |
Changes to business stationery rules
As from 1st January 2007 the following applies
............,
On all of its business letters, order forms or any of the company’s web sites, the company must show in legible lettering –
its place of registration
registered number
its registered office address
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Or have I missed where you have put them? I would have expected them here . Happy to have helped if you have just made an inadvertent omission. 
Of course, if you are not part of Snowcrazy Ltd, you might wish to change your sH name - I'm sure you wouldn't wish to be misleading. 
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 20-11-14 10:28; edited 2 times in total
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FAQ
s offering to do this, we'd bankrupt 
Not really possible, even for the best youngster I suspect. Anyway I read also that she is not likely to race any more so that may well be the end of this scam. Hope so! 