 Poster: A snowHead
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Spyderman, I'm only referring to overseas trips by either and the way Inside Out have structured them. Might be on the fringes of the rules but AIUI they follow appropriate local protocols so I don't have a problem.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| spud wrote: |
You've lost me here. The coaches don't get paid in a club situation or they do as it comes out of Club membership fees or the price of week away rtraining?
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I assumed the above posters were looking for ways around the current legislation. I can't see Crystal getting season long ski leaders for nothing but obviously some BASI lower level instructors may work for expenses to get some hours in.
I've no idea how Inside Out or the Belgians mentioned in the other thread operate but two Swiss instructors were prosecuted last season for instructing as part of a "club". I don't know the exact details of that case. It was in the Haute-Savoie and almost created a diplomatic incident between the two countries.
Saint is right, the prosecutor in the SB case seemed to have cocked-up in a few respects so maybe a poor example to talk about.
I've nothing against ski hosting myself. France, like some other European countries, has a number of protected labour niches: Taxi drivers, Notaires, Chemists (try and get some aspirin or condoms in your local supermarket). Even hair dressers were protected by law until a few years ago.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hmmmm...so every foreign or French coach that turns up at Tignes lets say, and coaches his Club or even Nation, has the appropriate French qualification?
Just putting it out their like...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| spud wrote: |
Surely a TO host doesn't get paid seperately. It's all covered in their monthly wage. Usually Transfers, Chalet help, Ski manager/host?
Surely it all comes under the same banner? |
With a TO the contract is between the skier and the TO, and the hosting/guiding/leading service is offered as part of that contract. The fact that the employee isn't paid separately for that task doesn't mean it's not part of their job, and so something they are being paid for.
it's still a service for which the skier is paying for, albeit as part of a package
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| shep, not sure why you're puzzled. I have had ski lessons in which I've learnt a lot about skiing (from rob@rar amongst others) and others from which I've probably learnt more French than skiing. All part of life's rich tapestry and at least the latter were very cheap. I've also had lessons where I've learnt a lot of skiing AND a fair bit of French. |
pam w, sorry, mine was a pointless post I tried to delete but too late  . If it's any excuse I'm still getting used to all this... and I do enjoy your posts!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| Hmmmm...so every foreign or French coach that turns up at Tignes lets say, and coaches his Club or even Nation, has the appropriate French qualification? |
^ IVSI status is the certification organisation for amateur sports clubs
(i.e International Association of Amateur Ski Instructors). Such exemption can be used by qualified coaches taking junior ski racers overseas in a club environment on training courses, for example.
http://www.uksnowsports.co.uk/default.asp?contentID=651
More info here.
Until 20 mins ago I didnt even know such an organisation existed (thanks for pm : rob@rar)
Apparently it is how Inside Out manage to operate in France using BASI L2 & L3.
http://www.ivsi.info/ivsi/page/360680691110469600_370139421065304921~370139455156607836_370139455156607836,en.html
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 21-11-12 21:25; edited 4 times in total
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| Wayne wrote: |
Hang on. It’s France we’re talking about here, not the Home Counties. If the law in France says that you have a certain qualification do to something, then that’s it.
I actually don’t have a clue if it really is the law or just the EFS whinging like they normally do, but I’m fairly certain the judge hearing the case will do and will base their ruling based upon it. |
Exactly right.
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| spud wrote: |
Hmmmm...so every foreign or French coach that turns up at Tignes lets say, and coaches his Club or even Nation, has the appropriate French qualification?
Just putting it out their like... |
Well, some coaches are qualified to the nines but I'd say not very many. Many are former performers who know their stuff but may only be working towards qualification. Many get "paid" be it a free trip or wehatever. So, I guess, if the law were to be strictly applied the race lanes and the terrain parks will be dessimated and clubs will flood over to Hintertux, Kaprun etc.
And, at risk of horse's head in my bed, where does all this leave SCGB Leaders?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Generic anti ESF rants are just dumb.
Especially some of the drivel claiming that all ESF instructors are pipe smoking, 'bend zee knees' dinosaurs. |
I speak as I find. I never had anything more than 'follow-me' and a few cliches thrown at me broadly equivalent to 'bend zee knees'. It was the reason I gave up on ski instruction because I thought that was what it was all like, and while it was a pleasant experience being shown around the hill by guys who were passionate about their mountains it really didn't help me improve my skiing to I could actually access much of those wonderful mountains.
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Completely different to my experiences with the EFS. I've always found them to be excellent instructors.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
Hmmmm...so every foreign or French coach that turns up at Tignes lets say, and coaches his Club or even Nation, has the appropriate French qualification?
Just putting it out their like... |
Well, some coaches are qualified to the nines but I'd say not very many. Many are former performers who know their stuff but may only be working towards qualification. Many get "paid" be it a free trip or wehatever. So, I guess, if the law were to be strictly applied the race lanes and the terrain parks will be dessimated and clubs will flood over to Hintertux, Kaprun etc.
And, at risk of horse's head in my bed, where does all this leave SCGB Leaders? |
Exactly where it leaves some random bloke leading a groups of his mates around the mountain.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Blimey...this is getting complicated... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PJSki, just asking because, according to Planetski re the meeting with ESF last week in London:
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| Tour operators represented at the London meeting were Inghams, Esprit Ski, Ski Total, Crystal, Zenith, Thomson, First Choice, Neilson, Ski Olympic, Erna Lowe, Skiworld, the Ski Club of Great Britain and others. |
If an SCGB Leader is just
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some random bloke leading a groups of his mates around the mountain
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then why are SCGB involved at a high level with the TO fight?
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This is part of the British Snowsport text
Holders of the IVSI international licence are authorised to operate within their own club or organisation, working with your own group subject to specific national legislation
A license does not give license to break local law.
In my experience race clubs etc who are out training athletes are almost always made welcome particularly when the ask permission in advance.
SCGB if they are not being paid then probably fine it's a really long standing club. But is it linked to Fresh Tracks so that their clients gey free guiding - if so it turns professional not easy is it?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
then why are SCGB involved at a high level with the TO fight?
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... because SCGB got stopped last winter too and the leader was subsequently interviewed by PGHM in Bourg St Maurice.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
If an SCGB Leader is just
| Quote: |
some random bloke leading a groups of his mates around the mountain
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then why are SCGB involved at a high level with the TO fight? |
Don't they represent British skiers?
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Poster: A snowHead
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SCGB do indeed represent a very large body of British skiers and of course have their ski guides they also have their tour operator arm Fresh Tracks they have every right to be there. They like others will have their own vested interest and views, just like so many of us posting comments here. Personally I'm quite glad they are saying something ; It"s the ones that don't who worry me!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
Hmmmm...so every foreign or French coach that turns up at Tignes lets say, and coaches his Club or even Nation, has the appropriate French qualification?
Just putting it out their like... |
Well, some coaches are qualified to the nines but I'd say not very many. Many are former performers who know their stuff but may only be working towards qualification. Many get "paid" be it a free trip or wehatever. So, I guess, if the law were to be strictly applied the race lanes and the terrain parks will be dessimated and clubs will flood over to Hintertux, Kaprun etc.
And, at risk of horse's head in my bed, where does all this leave SCGB Leaders? |
This is why it all seems a bit strange to me... Why pick on TO hosts and not everyone that doesn't comply to their rules?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As a Ski Club of GB member, I see it thus:
1. The long-standing official argument is that SCGB reps are trained to a higher standard than tour operator reps/hosts. That, as I understand it, is why SCGB reps were recently re-branded as 'leaders'. The idea was to create clear water between the two groups.
2. If the above is correct and credible to a court (both tour operator hosts and SCGB leaders are essentially unqualified in terms of a transferable qualification to another employer) then the legal argument to be presented by the SCGB is stronger than that presented by the tour operators.
3. Therefore, if the case is won by the tour operator(s) that's fine for the SCGB. If the case is lost, then maybe that would also be a lost opportunity for the SCGB because it would not have presented its unique legal case.
4. That's why I'm not clear as to why the SCGB has joined the tour operators. If the latter have a weaker case, better for the Club to leave them to fight themselves - they have deep pockets collectively.
5. I don't use (in common with 85% to 90% of members in any year) the SCGB leading service, though I pay for it and pay any legal bills associated with it. And I should stress that I don't know if the Club is picking up a share of the tab for the lawyers fighting Le Ski's case (I presume the other tour operators are doing so).
6. Debates about Ski Club reps (as they were then called) - particularly concerning their off-piste leading activities - seemed to be the reason that the Club closed its public forum in 2004, and snowHeads (now a stronger club) was formed.
7. The business of membership communication seems to be far more important to clubs - i.e. the members of clubs - than any particular activity. snowHeads seems to get this, and also doesn't seem to be spending much (if anything) on lawyers.
8. "The law is an ass" (Charles Dickens, 'Oliver Twist'). Clubs should go to great lengths to avoid any dealings with lawyers, ideally by modifying their activities to avoid exposure and liability.
9. In 15 years (approx) of British internet skiing forums ('chat forums' as they're sometimes dismissed), I can't recall a single case of a website being sued for anything that anyone has written. But the number of legal cases (sometimes reflecting stupidity in leadership on mountains) affecting ski clubs and tour operators has been huge.
10. Therefore, communication is the name of the game - and what skiers want from ski clubs - not legal bills.
Thank you and goodnight.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Comedy Goldsmith, Your point about SCGB Leaders being more qualified than TO hosts is not always true.
Many TO's employ Hosts/ Ski Managers that hold Instructor Qualifications.
It's just that the majority in both goups don't comply with the French regs.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| spud wrote: |
Comedy Goldsmith, Your point about SCGB Leaders being more qualified than TO hosts is not always true.
Many TO's employ Hosts/ Ski Managers that hold Instructor Qualifications.
It's just that the majority in both goups don't comply with the French regs. |
It's not always true, no. But the difference is that the SCGB has a consistent level of training requirements for all leaders, irrespective of any pre-existing qualifications.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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spud, Putting on my lawyer's hat (it came out of a Christmas cracker - I'm not even qualified to lead you around a law court) ... the lawyers acting (sic) for the tour operators would not be able to argue that some of their hosts hold instructor qualifications - they would have to present their case on the basis of the minimum credentials they accept from job applicants and the training they provide.
As I understand it, it's specifically Le Ski who are fighting this (with help). So if Le Ski don't require instructor qualifications from prospective hosts, that's all the judge will be interested in ... and the curriculum of their training programme.
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The Ski Club doesn't pay its leaders, TO do pay their guides and are obviously run as a for profit business.
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This whole issue is supposedly a health and safety one, according to the EFS, yet the biggest danger on the slops comes from the ad hoc, inexperienced, leaderless groups who are a plague unto every ski resort. If this was truly about safety, then EFS and their like should not be picking on groups who are trying, and succeeding, to be safer than the average group of punters.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes but there's still the Fresh Tracks issue and to what extent it is commercial. I have no strong views either way but it could be an issue one day down the line. Ho Hey!
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| PJSki wrote: |
| yet the biggest danger on the slops comes from the ad hoc, inexperienced, leaderless groups who are a plague unto every ski resort |
Yes. "free skiing" idiots with over inflated ideas of their ability.
Have the ESF actually said it is a health and safety issue?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Saint wrote: |
| Yes but there's still the Fresh Tracks issue and to what extent it is commercial. I have no strong views either way but it could be an issue one day down the line. Ho Hey! |
The curse of the double-barrelled blond!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Have the ESF actually said it is a health and safety issue? |
The Planetski article reported this:
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| The French simply say that the hosts are not correctly qualified to take clients round the slopes and it is solely a matter of safety. |
If accurately reported and it is "solely a matter of safety", I would expect them to be citing cases where punters have been harmed as a result of the actions of TO hosts. But, so far, I ain't hearing any.
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| davidof wrote: |
| The Ski Club doesn't pay its leaders |
Haven't we been here before? Don't the French consider lift pass, lodging, transport etc as being "pay"?
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You know it makes sense.
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Saint, referring to your post of 15:34 - sure, seems it's being well stitched up. We'll see. Main thing is you're not saying it's reasonable/fair/right etc. Perhaps Simon Butler's case was a prosecution cock-up but from my viewpoint it was simply a case of the prosecution being wrong and the defence being right (that there is no substantial difference between ENSA training with Euro Speed Test and BASI training without Euro Speed Test - read: even if one can speciously defend the EMS and ISTD Tech, there is no way the Euro Speed Test can be justified). A question I have though, if no vested interest, why then may I ask, does this issue exercise you enough to 1) post exclusively on this issue when it comes up (pistehors 2008 and snowHeads 2012) 2) put such obvious time and effort into your posts?
With respect to ski clubs and IVSI, there used to be a recreational as well as a performance flavour of IVSI, and I know of at least one other UK ski club, not a race club but a recreational club, who used to bring their own club members out to France for coaching with its own non-Euro Pro cartel qualified coaches. The difference between instruction and coaching isn't clear cut. To my mind it's about the extended nature of the relationship between teacher and student. This is perfectly above board and legal as France is signed up to the IVSI. It doesn't have to be about racing.
In the meantime, minimum of BASI L2 to do ski hosting then?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| davidof wrote: |
| I've nothing against ski hosting myself. France, like some other European countries, has a number of protected labour niches: Taxi drivers, Notaires, Chemists (try and get some aspirin or condoms in your local supermarket). Even hair dressers were protected by law until a few years ago. |
So much for working across borders and recognising each other's qualifications. Brings to mind the joke about Britain being the only nation to suffer when EU regulations are introduced. I'll leave you all to fill-in the blanks. The _______ love them. The ________ are too incompetent to implement them. The ______ ignore them and the _______ will do something about them tomorrow.
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Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, There still is a recreational version of the IVSI licence.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rjs, are you sure? I'm sure I was told it had now been consigned to the scrap heap (read: too late for me to get it! )
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| The Ski Club doesn't pay its leaders |
Haven't we been here before? Don't the French consider lift pass, lodging, transport etc as being "pay"? |
Food too.
My legal advice is that this wouldn't be classed as pay wrt to the French legislation but we'd need a court case to test that. What happened with the Ski Club rep in BSM?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| Have the ESF actually said it is a health and safety issue? |
The Planetski article reported this:
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It did but I was waiting for something a bit more first hand than some reportage on a web site (and that goes for SH, PH, TGR and any other website for that matter). Planetski needs to learn the same lessons as the BBC and check sources, attribute quotes etc rathar than all this wooly "The French said this, The French said that" stuff.
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
If accurately reported and it is "solely a matter of safety", I would expect them to be citing cases where punters have been harmed as a result of the actions of TO hosts. But, so far, I ain't hearing any. |
Certainly in the past it was all pretty pedestrian stuff but I've no recent experience in how ski hosting operates today.
Let's not forget the 2 ESF instructors that received suspended prison sentences last year after a client was killed by an avalanche in Val Thorens. The Savoie prosecutor Patrick Quincy was very critical of the instructing profession following that incident.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 21-11-12 23:42; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Haven't we been here before? Don't the French consider lift pass, lodging, transport etc as being "pay"?
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Correct - it's considered to be a form of remuneration.
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So much for working across borders and recognising each other's qualifications
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This point was covered earlier in the thread whereby if a profession is unregulated in a member state (ie. UK) another member state (ie France) can require evidence of skill levels / aptitude. EU Directive http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/internal_market/living_and_working_in_the_internal_market/c11065_en.htm
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The host Member State can make recognition of qualifications subject to the applicant completing a compensation measure (aptitude test or adaptation period of a maximum of three years) in the following three cases:
the training was at least one year shorter than that required by the host Member State;
the training covered substantially different matters from those covered by the evidence of formal training required in the host Member State;
the profession as defined in the host Member State comprises one or more regulated professional activities that do not exist in the corresponding profession in the applicant’s home Member State and requires specific training that covers substantially different matters from those covered by the applicant's training. |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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See what you mean.
The comparison really depends on how far you've gone along the BASI training route, for example is level 1 or 2 training comparable to level 4 with or with out the Eurotest by the way that was Davidof's comparison not mine. so it depends on each Instructors qualification level and whether they were planning on continuing their skiing education. I did read the court judgement. Simon won and that is that. I am looking at this from the legal perspective not from whether he should have one or not.
Now personally I think racing knowledge and skill is very important, just like new school skiing (snow park) and off-piste but I think the Eurotest as it is, is as useful as a chocolate fireguard. Too many people fail - it was a bad idea.
The reason why the topic interests me is I live in the Alps and I come into contact all winter long with people who ask me about or are affected by it and that includes the French.
The reason I put some work into the answers is that I have been caught out in the past by not being thorough enough when I write things for other people's consumption.
Yes recreational skiing is part of ISVI so as long as the niceties are sought and there is normally no issue of lack of permission and co-operation. In that respect genuine British clubs are much better than most. See page 7 for my other examples of bad behaviour.
Sure Level 2 seems a good level of skiing for most purposes, but and a big but - is it going to change the French law?
Are Ski club of Great Britain leaders going to stop going off piste with their parties? Really not an easy subject and one where people will get very emotional.
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Thing is we are talking about a quite complicated and for some very emotive subject. Which is why I try to be careful.
I'm with Davidof here, we need to go beyond generalised quotes and be accurate as well as opinionated.
That's why the relevant European and French law to do with good industry practices are important. It's only then well can properly address what is really important - the skiers.
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[quote="rob@rar"]
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Can you balance my negative impression of ESF lessons with some more positive ones? It gives me absolutely no pleasure to hear purely negative stories about the ESF. |
I have used ESF twice. I used them in Courchevel 1850. The first instructor I had there gave very little instruction. I was in an improvers group where we were all confident on blues but still mostly doing snow-plow turns but parallel in between. There were two young girl on our group who on the second day kept begging to go on a red. No-one else really wanted to do it but he took us down it. The instructor skied off ahead of all of us and left us to ski down by ourselves with no coaching It was carnage with most of the group falling over a lot which watching those ahead of me repeatedly fall in itself knocked my confidence. I managed to get down it (surprisingly only fell once) very very slowly. I had absolutely no confidence by then so I switched to another group. The second ESF instructor in Courchevel was great. Lots of individual attention telling each person in the class what they did well and points for improvement. Lots of exercises and I was really happy and learnt something.
My husband turned up late in Courchevel for his advanced course and they provided him an excellent personal instructor at no extra charge and when he did join his group the next day the group instructor was excellent.
I also used ESF in Alpe D'Huez and again had a positive experience.
In general I think the ESF bunch are friendly and helpful and I think there are definitely great instructors but also some bad apples.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The IVSI is perfectly clear in point 1 of its Statute:
" The federation exclusively and directly serves public non-profit purposes"
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Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 22-11-12 20:24; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
