 Poster: A snowHead
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@munich_irish, yes, Simon Calder has done a piece on it in the Independent this morning, indefinitely delay with a possible phased roll out.
Extract from Simon Calder below
When finally EES gets going, it will initially be as a relatively small pilot scheme – possibly involving only some medium-sized airports. The biometric demands appear also to be watered down. Until now, the European Union has specified that every arriving “third-country national” would provide fingerprints and a facial biometric on first encounter with the system. But now the EU says that “border officers will scan the fingerprints or take a photo of those crossing the border” – my italics. The Schengen border experience for most British passport holders will continue to be worse than when we were part of the European Union. For now at least, though, it will not deteriorate further.
I should remind you that the Schengen Area comprises the EU (except Ireland and Cyprus) plus Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and plucky Liechtenstein. And I must provide the usual reminder that Brussels is not punishing us for the temerity of voting to leave the EU. We knew at the time that the entry-exit system was on the way. By choosing to become third-country nationals, we demanded every extra tangle of red tape that will, eventually, come our way. And Brussels acquiesced to our desire for trickier travelling.
End of extract.
There are some links and formatting that didn’t paste, this is one of them https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/brexit-border-bonus-brussels-entry-exi-b2624086.html
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@radar, I would guess ETIAS will go ahead as planned, it will generate revenue and also similar schemes are working elsewhere so the IT infrastructure is not an unknown. I thought that was planned for next year.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm not sure how a small pilot scheme involving just some airports might work. Especially where people may enter and exit via different routes. People could end with an entry in the system and not an exit thereby relying on stamps to validate missing data.
In the past, I have driven out with family and then they have flown back earlier. If you did that in both directions with stamps in the middle, the EES could show an overstay. Would certainly get complicated with some explaining to do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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German interior ministry says:
"necessary stability and functionality of the EES central system to be provided by the EU agency EU-Lisa is not yet in place"
Translation: eight years in they haven't finished building the system, and what they have built doesn't work.
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More time for negotiation of exemption for British passport holders as part of our closer links with the EU perhaps.
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@munich_irish, I thought it was linked to the introduction of the EES system, not sure if they can brining it in without it.
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@radar, maybe but the US runs a similar system without an EES type system.
@James77, wishful thinking I am afraid
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@munich_irish, Calder’s article says ETIAS has been indefinitely postponed as well.
The US do run an EES system in a way, as do most countries, in that they record entry and exit at the border - the difficulty of EES is that it requires all Schengen countries to share the data. The biometrics is the thing everyone is focused on, but the bit that does away with passport stamps is the single system to record border crossings - which arguably they could introduce without the biometrics.
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@andy from embsay,
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the bit that does away with passport stamps is the single system to record border crossings - which arguably they could introduce without the biometrics.
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That would be my approach. Get the Entry Exit recording system up and running first (which could be parallel run with stamps as a fallback). Once established and stable, start collecting biometrics on a gradual basis. This could be done at quieter times and smaller airports etc over a period of a year. I suspect that is how it will end up being implemented. However, there is probably some legislation requiring biometrics to be collected on entry with EES that would need to be reversed.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@sno trax, they definitely need to make changes to the legislation - the Reuters report quotes the EU official as saying so. It’s a right bag of spanners!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have noticed that on entering Shengen they stamp your passport but no one goes through checking all the entry and exit dates and adding up to see if you have spent more than 90 days in the last 6 months in the Shengen area. At best I think they check when you last entered, but as the entry and exit stamps are sometimes on different pages I suspect that even that is not always done. At least once I never got an entry stamp.
They need the linked computer systems to enforce the 90 day ruling.
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@johnE, absolutely. I guess if someone wanted to sit down and work their way through my passport they could work it out but I’ve got about 20 pages of stamps that are definitely not in order!
I was thinking I’d need a new passport as i only have about 5 pages left and 2 years of validity, but apparently they are supposed to just add some paper and stamp that!
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You know it makes sense.
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One thing missing in this discussion is an understanding that what is being dealt with here is 20 odd different legal systems and government practices. Some countries are being very strict with 90 days and other associated regulations (like working) eg Denmark and others hardly seem to care eg surprisingly France. Most people's experience here is of the pointless stamping process at Folkstone / Calais and lots of stories about folk ignoring 90 days. I know of people who have been arrested and banned from Schengen in Copenhagen but had been happily doing the same thing in Barcelona with no issues. There is a conflict here between border control which is the competence of individual Schengen countries and the rules set centrally but no powers to enforce. For countries like France & Germany it is more important to avoid chaos at their ports & airports (for which the national governments will get blamed for) than stick to a timetable for a project that will bring them little tangible benefit.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| One thing missing in this discussion is an understanding that what is being dealt with here is 20 odd different legal systems and government practices. Some countries are being very strict with 90 days and other associated regulations (like working) eg Denmark and others hardly seem to care eg surprisingly France. Most people's experience here is of the pointless stamping process at Folkstone / Calais and lots of stories about folk ignoring 90 days. I know of people who have been arrested and banned from Schengen in Copenhagen but had been happily doing the same thing in Barcelona with no issues. There is a conflict here between border control which is the competence of individual Schengen countries and the rules set centrally but no powers to enforce. For countries like France & Germany it is more important to avoid chaos at their ports & airports (for which the national governments will get blamed for) than stick to a timetable for a project that will bring them little tangible benefit. |
This is exactly the issue.
The French know that some of the people entering France are not going to stay there so are not incentivised to enforce the law. The same with some EU countries to the east if they know that people will be passing through on their way somewhere else.
The expectation and requirement to rely on country A enforcing the rules so that country B remains safe is difficult. Particularly where country B does not "contribute" to the cost of staffing country A's border but expects to enjoy the protection that country A's border provides it with.
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Poster: A snowHead
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They don't really need to count the days on the majority of passports. All they have to do is check the last exit date.
If it's more than 90-100 days (as it will be the case of most people who take an annual holiday), then there won't be a problem with >90/180.
If exit is a number of weeks after the last entry, with a lot of entries, some may count up, just to check.
The vast majority of travelers visiting on holiday won't have any issues with the 90/180 rule.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@brianatab, the trouble is the last entry date could be on any of over dozen pages, perhaps 4 stamps a page and they are not stamped in order. Some stamps are very faint as well.
I have a suspicion that for many people travel to a Schengen country is easier and cheaper than having a long weekend in the uk.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You know how to beat the system when it does get implemented....
Just grab one of those rubber boats which must be piling up in Dover 
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@brianatab, I have a 6 month FR visa each summer plus Schengen 90 visa waiver days in the winter. I stick a post it note in the passport where I want the border stamp. So no random scattering.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@geoffers, it is rather ridiculous that law abiding, probably mainly, citizens get bio checked to the nth degree, while assorted small boats enter and leave the EU almost unhindered.
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@brianatab,
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They don't really need to count the days on the majority of passports. All they have to do is check the last exit date.
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We have exited Schengen twice without having passports checked or stamped. First occasion we entered France from Andorra, passports checked, and we got a bollocking from the border guard for not getting stamped out going from Spain into Andorra.
Second time, we left France at Calais in January after 88 days in Schengen, no-one looked at or stamped our passports. Back to French border control at Dover, they took our passports, which would have indicated us having been in Schengen for ten months and still there, scanned them, stamped them, gave them back and waved us on without a word.
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| sno trax wrote: |
I'm not sure how a small pilot scheme involving just some airports might work. Especially where people may enter and exit via different routes. People could end with an entry in the system and not an exit thereby relying on stamps to validate missing data.
In the past, I have driven out with family and then they have flown back earlier. If you did that in both directions with stamps in the middle, the EES could show an overstay. Would certainly get complicated with some explaining to do. |
They won't be introducing it fully it it's a phased trial.
It'll effectively just be a beta test of the system (which should always have been the plan.
Can they gather the data?
Can they send it to the right places in whatever database it lives?
Can they store it appropriately?
Can they retrieve data on someone they've seen before so they don't need to capture the data again?
Pretty standard use cases that they should always have planned on testing at somewhere like Toulouse or Porto or Pisa where you get international entries but it's not Frankfurt or Charles De Gaulle.
Gradually ramp up until you're doing the bigger or more difficult airports. I actually think places like Chambery or Palma could be really challenging as they get loads of traffic but they're holiday airports without loads of infrastructure.
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This is really pathetic, I mean its not rocket science or anything new. This is one of the biggest trading blocs around and they cant even bring in a visa and passport monitoring system. Pathetic. What would they do if the Russians invaded.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not defending it but the complexity of interfacing with 20 odd different immigration systems in real time along with implementing the biometric hardware across every entry point in Europe is an "interesting" challenge.
The fact you think it's simple suggests you probably have no clue.
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@paulhinch,
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The fact you think it's simple suggests you probably have no clue.
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Not wishing to be as rude to you as you were to @ster, but really?
This didn't land on someone's desk yesterday; or last week; or last year. It was 8 years ago.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| paulhinch wrote: |
I'm not defending it but the complexity of interfacing with 20 odd different immigration systems in real time along with implementing the biometric hardware across every entry point in Europe is an "interesting" challenge.
The fact you think it's simple suggests you probably have no clue. |
Simple enough concept? No?
The execution has been nothing short of shambolic. Nothing to show for it 8 years later. Delays at every turn. Whats the betting that when they actually turn it on, it will be a clusterfuck.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| colinstone wrote: |
| @brianatab, I have a 6 month FR visa each summer plus Schengen 90 visa waiver days in the winter. I stick a post it note in the passport where I want the border stamp. So no random scattering. |
I’ve tried this with a post it and paper clip but hasn’t always worked.
Some pages have 8 stamps others only 4.
The other issue I’ve encountered is quite often the border officer notices a visa page so has just waived me through, so I’m not stamped in but can be stamped out.
I’ve just got a new passport as I was running out of pages, now regretting not going for the extra page jumbo option if the stamps are going to continue
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It does seem to be a phenomally difficult challenge to implement, every border crossing over many countries, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Some of those borders will see thousands crossing, some just one or two, but the IT systems have to work 100% all the time. As a former IT Manager I really wouldn't want to be involved in that!
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You know it makes sense.
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| mozwold wrote: |
@paulhinch,
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The fact you think it's simple suggests you probably have no clue.
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Not wishing to be as rude to you as you were to @ster, but really?
This didn't land on someone's desk yesterday; or last week; or last year. It was 8 years ago. |
I've known retail e-commerce systems that have taken longer to get right.
The level of complexity of this is massive.
Conceptually it's easy but getting it to work across different countries, different hardware etc is a mammoth task.
I think it's pretty stupid of them to keep announcing it'll all go live at once. That's mental. No one does that unless they absolutely have to (and they don't in this case).
As to being rude.....I apologise. I just get annoyed when people who clearly have no clue go on as if something is easy when there's thousands of very bright people working for years on something.
Just imagine the language and translation elements of it for just the border guards (never mind the terminals). That's not even the technical bit.
Imagine having a requirement for 99.99% uptime or something. Even then, what to you do when it goes down for the 5 minutes a year??? Shut the borders until it works again???
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I haven't read or commented before now. What does this system do, that was not being done before? Nothing. People who want to enter France legally show their passports, which are checked, and they are then logged into the system. When they leave, they are logged out. Taking and holding fingerprints and retinal scans makes no difference to this. The people the French really want to have information about are the illegals. ID cards have the same problem. All the illegal immegrants that are trying to get into the Uk do not have french ID cards, yet they are not arrested not deported.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
People who want to enter France legally show their passports, which are checked, and they are then logged into the system. When they leave, they are logged out.
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Is there "logging in" or "logging out"? The passports are scanned for validity. I do not think there is a database of who is in the country behind it all.
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The people the French really want to have information about are the illegals.
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Indeed, but how do they know who they are?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnE wrote: |
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People who want to enter France legally show their passports, which are checked, and they are then logged into the system. When they leave, they are logged out.
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Is there "logging in" or "logging out"? The passports are scanned for validity. I do not think there is a database of who is in the country behind it all.
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The people the French really want to have information about are the illegals.
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Indeed, but how do they know who they are? |
If there isn’t a database of those who’ve arrived/left that’s probably not that difficult to do in a single country - I always assumed the UK does as it allows quite a few countries’ citizens to use e-gates, so no stamping of passports but i assumed a record of the entry - or is it all done with API from the airlines? There’s no “passport control” leaving the UK is there?
But the extra complexity of EES is making 29 systems talk to each other across thousands of border crossings.
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@joffy69, within France (or any other single country) it’s not that complicated. The difficulty is in Schengen people enter and leave from different countries so stamping passports is currently the only way of recording entry/exit.
The biometrics is a bit of a sideshow really and will eventually allow automated border crossings without the need for a man in a box.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would have thought that trying to link 29 systems into some sort of homogeneous network is going to be a minefield of data breaches.
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Yes. That's exactly what they're doing.
In other news.... Wibble
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| andy from embsay wrote: |
| johnE wrote: |
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People who want to enter France legally show their passports, which are checked, and they are then logged into the system. When they leave, they are logged out.
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Is there "logging in" or "logging out"? The passports are scanned for validity. I do not think there is a database of who is in the country behind it all.
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The people the French really want to have information about are the illegals.
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Indeed, but how do they know who they are? |
If there isn’t a database of those who’ve arrived/left that’s probably not that difficult to do in a single country - I always assumed the UK does as it allows quite a few countries’ citizens to use e-gates, so no stamping of passports but i assumed a record of the entry - or is it all done with API from the airlines? There’s no “passport control” leaving the UK is there?
But the extra complexity of EES is making 29 systems talk to each other across thousands of border crossings. |
The UK system is a million miles away from perfect.
Migration figures are calculated from a survey rather than just going and checking a table in a database.
If you were setting up a brand new country then in principal it's easy but it's an ongoing prioritisation process within the a Home Office.
I worked on the Ukraine Visa system for a bit and that delayed loads of other work to do with identity. At the same time you'd got whole teams working on the Covid landing cards and trying to make that seemless. All stuff that gets in the way of day to day stuff.
The reality is that the UK doesn't know 100% who's in the country. Joining up arriving and departure info is difficult. There's people who arrived before we recorded things properly and only "appear" when they leave so you've an orphaned record in a table for example.
Then you've got the joy of people changing passports so you can't even tie entry and exit to a passport ID.
From an EES perspective, just think of the scenario of someone from Ukraine who arrived in the Poland pre-EES on their Ukrainian passport. They've traveled to Germany and claimed asylum so they're now on a Stateless Travel Document... They go to France and take a flight to the UK.... You've an entry against a passport but that passport hasn't left the EU. You've then got an exit against a travel document..... Does the system know it's the same person???
That's me just working through one random edge case off the top of my head. There'll be thousands of those that all need a decision and then coding.
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FAQ
I deliberately manipulated the dates I'd be in Germany to get this done! 
