 Poster: A snowHead
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Correct, as long as it's within easy return to a piste/lift, ie 5 mins or so............
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ok, presumably Peter Hardy will be against that then?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Probably.....
Rightly or wrongly, I don't know......
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| feef wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| feef, I think the off piste option will usually involve hiring a guide for the day |
For trips further afield, that is an option, but off-piste is still done as a leader. |
Thought you could only do off-piste with "the club" if you were a gold class as-slicker, for those who are mere silver class as-slickers, or dare I mention those lowly bronze, you were only allowed to be present in the bar whilst "they" told you of the wonderful day they had,
But I could just be 'kin cynical!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ADESki wrote: |
| feef wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| feef, I think the off piste option will usually involve hiring a guide for the day |
For trips further afield, that is an option, but off-piste is still done as a leader. |
Thought you could only do off-piste with "the club" if you were a gold class as-slicker, for those who are mere silver class as-slickers, or dare I mention those lowly bronze, you were only allowed to be present in the bar whilst "they" told you of the wonderful day they had,
But I could just be 'kin cynical! |
Yup, you're just being 'kin cynical.
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| davidof wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| davidof, I think it is due to a previous death (or may have been serious injury) of a club member when being led off piste a few years back.. |
but clubs like the French and Swiss Alpine Club have had numerous deaths over the years and have carried on regardless |
Bloody foreigners - heartless, callous and uncaring the lot of 'em 
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| ADESki wrote: |
Thought you could only do off-piste with "the club" if you were a gold class as-slicker |
Last time I skied with anyone from the ski club the rep, Paul, was taking all comers on his blues and twos rapidly transformed into "off piste extravaganza" day due to the champagne powder conditions that had inconveniently materialized overnight.. There were some very miserable teenagers after the first run to which Paul jabbed me in the ribs and said "d'ya think we can loose the kids at the top of the chair" - "only if you loose the parents too" I told him. I remember one of the mums asking him if the Teufi off the back of the Jakobshorn was really a "blue". "Well" he started "yes it is whatever you want it to be because it is an itinerary run so it is both nothing and everything". "Righhhhtt", came the reply from the worried mum.
Still apart from a sprain requiring a stretcher the day went off without a hitch. Good value all round. Even the parents were... well... at least they were not threatening to contact their lawyers lets put it that way.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
| it is whatever you want it to be because it is an itinerary run so it is both nothing and everything |
signature-worthy 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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davidof, I've met a few reps like that - all many, many years ago of course.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Twas a bit gung ho back in the day.............
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You know it makes sense.
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I can't imagine that people would be paid in the UK for working in a ski resort?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| I can't imagine that people would be paid in the UK for working in a ski resort? |
Srsly?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| I can't imagine that people would be paid in the UK for working in a ski resort? |
Srsly? |
No, 'cos that would be bending the law.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| I can't imagine that people would be paid in the UK for working in a ski resort? |
Unless it's changed, the majority of British based T O's paid their staff working in resorts into a British Bank Account.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Suspect you're falling victim to a fairly heavy dose of sarcasm from emwmarine there...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Suspect you're falling victim to a fairly heavy dose of sarcasm from emwmarine there... |
I don't follow this forum enough to know who the 'Characters' are, and their traits. 
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Perhaps, but since we're being semi serious about the comment, I believe it's not just being paid in the uk, but under a uk contract, with a uk 'office' and being 'seconded' to the foreign country to avoid employment law of the destination country
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Naivety is assuming that because some TOs do it, that means it is legal. See the link on prosecution of Ryanair that I posted.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I wonder how they approach the tax issue? One the major issue areas for overseas workers/employers when they actually work in the jurisdiction of a foreign tax authority.
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| Quote: |
I believe it's not just being paid in the uk, but under a uk contract, with a uk 'office' and being 'seconded' to the foreign country to avoid employment law of the destination country
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Yes, they require potential employees to have a UK residential address, UK bank a/c, UK NI number. The UK has the "Polish Builder" here, in France, it's the "British Seasonnaire". As you say to avoid the employer "Cotisations" (equivalent to UK NI but much higher). To employ someone in France on the minimum wage, known as the "SMIC", it costs the employer c. Euro 2500 / month. It may or may not be legal but it's a form of "Social Dumping". The high street retailers "outsourced" their production to Bangladesh to produce cheap clothes ...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This is were I dig out my old email from a large London-based tour operator again:
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| Unfortunately we are unable to alter our contracts with staff. We need to look like we are conforming to french employment law, which means charging our employees for their accommodation, food etc, but as this is all included in the package that we offer you, what we do is pay that extra money inot your account and then withdraw it the next day. It is just so we are in keeping with the French laws of employment. |
The article next to the one I linked to in the Var Matin above stated it was illegal to "employ someone in one country to have them work uniquely in another" and that the EU directive had been amended in April to toughen up on the practice. Can't find that bit online though, only the stuff about working cash-in-hand, and in any case it wouldn't be the first newspaper to get something wrong. They're really pissed off about the Portuguese in the construction trade down here, compared to which Brit chalet hosts are a drop in the ocean. Only takes one motivated official to poke his nose in though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
This is were I dig out my old email from a large London-based tour operator again:
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| Unfortunately we are unable to alter our contracts with staff. We need to look like we are conforming to french employment law, which means charging our employees for their accommodation, food etc, but as this is all included in the package that we offer you, what we do is pay that extra money inot your account and then withdraw it the next day. It is just so we are in keeping with the French laws of employment. |
The article next to the one I linked to in the Var Matin above stated it was illegal to "employ someone in one country to have them work uniquely in another" and that the EU directive had been amended in April to toughen up on the practice. Can't find that bit online though, only the stuff about working cash-in-hand, and in any case it wouldn't be the first newspaper to get something wrong. They're really pissed off about the Portuguese in the construction trade down here, compared to which Brit chalet hosts are a drop in the ocean. Only takes one motivated official to poke his nose in though. |
So what you are saying is that lots of the Operators pay their staff in a way that might be considered 'bending the rules' in France and it would only take perhaps a persistent group to really get under the skin of the French for them to clamp down on those employment practices. Crikey.
I wonder how much the price of chalet holidays would rise if Isabella and Jeremy had to be paid according to a French contract?
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but then, with the expected increase in the costs of holidays in Switzerland, will there actually be much difference? Will Italy and Austria keep their prices low, or increase them a bit to increase profits but remain competitive?
http://welove2ski.com/ski-holiday/swiss-chalet-holiday
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You know it makes sense.
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Look at a Club Med brochure, I guess that would give an idea. If they can offer an inclusive holiday with a fully legal French staff why can't someone in London?
A few companies have been pulled up already though, remember at the start of these threads last year that Le Ski were fined most heavily for the employment law violations, not for having unqualified guides/hosts.
Ignoring the legal aspect though, a considerable improvement would be made in the holiday world simply by asking the staff if they want to live in the provided accommodation and have the hire skis etc, or keep the full wage and sort it out themselves. That way the gap yahs can still get everything sorted for them (and live off daddy's allowance in resort), but older types would be able to live out and support a family.
Still not quite on a par with French staff who get a full wage AND free accommodation, but better than the current situation. Hardly a shocking concept really, I can't think why it isn't already like this. Profit maybe?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| I wonder how much the price of chalet holidays would rise if Isabella and Jeremy had to be paid according to a French contract? |
I wonder how many fewer holidays would be taken in the French Alps. I wonder how many French workers would be hurt. But it's clear where you're coming from.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I wonder how many French workers would be hurt.
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At the moment French workers are excluded from working for UK tour operators as they will only employ UK residents. So may be it would actually benefit French workers. How would British people feel if they applied for a job in the UK to be told they wouldn't be considered as the company only employed, let us say, Polish residents?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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marksavoie, I'm thinking of those who work in restaurants, equipment sales and rental, etc who won't have foreign customers that are priced out of the market. I see the Swiss were wise enough to vote down the proposal for an insanely high minimum wage (though they're apparently about to clamp down on chalet operators who enjoyed some kind of benefits-in-kind exemption or blind eye previously).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
who won't have foreign customers that are priced out of the market
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There may well be less British (foreign) clients travelling and staying with British tour operators however for other foreigners it would be irrelevant. Therefore the impact on equipment shops, restaurants, etc would be limited (unless of course they are also British operated using British low-cost workers).
IMHO if you are operating on the territory of another EU Member state you should be complying with that EU member states employment laws and practices. The outcome is otherwise is that soon you will have e.g. Bulgarian seasonal staff working for even less than the British seasonal staff currently do; a "race to the bottom". What is currently taking place is "Social Dumping".
Do you believe it reasonable that a French individual wishing to set up a chalet based holiday company in their own country would be in an impossible position as they couldn't employ cheap labour in the same way?
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marksavoie, there are two things to comment on. First the legal position. Obviously countries have their own laws; then there is the principle of free movement of labour in the EU. These can come into conflict, and the question becomes when does a foreign worker become local for all intents and purposes rather than someone normally based in their home country but on temporary assignment in a foreign country. I think there are working definitions, and maybe case law, but I cannot claim any familiarity with the details.
Secondly, the question as to what the law should be. There, I take a very liberal (in the old-fashioned sense of the word) stance. If, say, a Bulgarian company can provide a cost-effective service in the UK or France, utilising Bulgarian staff contracted and paid in Bulgaria under Bulgarian law, then I say "good". More useful services will be done for British or French people and relatively poor Europeans will be given a chance to work, at wages which they at least find desirable to alternatives (supposing they have any prospect of paid employment at home). Far from being a "race to the bottom", this is a way that tends to equalise wealth distribution while increasing the total size of the European economy. If this leads to a flood of foreign workers, even while locals remain unemployed, it could be an indication that local employment laws are too onerous for employers, as well as reflecting pre-existing disparities in wealth.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I wonder if the French Chalet owners who lease their properties out to British TO's are a little worried?
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Discussing the maintenance window of Alpine accommodation when last in resort, the Hoteliers are "disappointed" that they do not have access to the Polish work ethic or ability we see in the UK. They feel held to ransom by the cartels of plumbers, sparkies and jobbing builders (or 'small downtrodden artisans', depending on your point of view) who jack their prices through the roof for the shoulder seasons, but without any commensurate level of skill.
I wonder how and/or why the so-called free movement of EU labour - which so excites UKIP, but to others amongst us appears a good thing - appears not to have reached the Alps . Why are there no Poles in France (and leave the skiing jokes out please  ) - or are they all Portuguese?
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Why are there no Poles in France
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Whatever makes you think there are no Poles in France? A new spec-built apartment building not far from mine was roofed (beautifully, wooden tiles) entirely by Poles - or at least I guessed they were Poles as they arrived each day in Polish-registered vehicles and clearly weren't talking French. I also overheard a lot of "builder talk" on a huge MGM development when I was picking raspberries on a nearby hillside. Some of the talk was French but a lot of it wasn't - I assumed it was Polish - certainly wasn't Portuguese.
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Hi Pam !
beware the lady innocently picking raspberries, the hills have ears !
Keep up the good work, and enjoy the raspberries 
Chris
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
IMHO if you are operating on the territory of another EU Member state you should be complying with that EU member states employment laws and practices. The outcome is otherwise is that soon you will have e.g. Bulgarian seasonal staff working for even less than the British seasonal staff currently do; a "race to the bottom". What is currently taking place is "Social Dumping". |
You say "Social Dumping", I say "Single Market".
You might ask why London is, apparently, France's 6th largest city. I don't imagine 250,000 French have come here for the food, climate or even the Hemel Snowdome.
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The law, certainly as France understands it, states that if you employ people locally then you have to contract locally and abide by local rules and taxes.
They have turned a bit of a blind eye up to now but it sounds like they are going to clamp down on this, particularly as the Swiss are doing so.
People on here suggest that this and the Simon Butler case will make a mass exodus of Brits from France. Well it didn't seem to in the 3vs this year.
If it spoils what has become the Henrietta and Isabella right of passage to spend a season or two the Alps for practically no money then so be it.
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