Breaking news on BBC , avalanche Tignes

A snowHead

Hurtle,
Our love of hill walking was what lured us into ski touring. Now we think we are lucky to have the best of both worlds ie a great hill walk, with the added bonus of a ski down.

We've done a few tours (usually Easter onwards) and have only occasionally experienced powder. However, the spring snow has often been fantastic! We aren't really interested in steep stuff (though we could manage it) but go ski touring for the all round mountain experience. We always go with a guide in the Alps (mostly in Austria) and the experience of being away from it all really is incredible.

I'd recommend trying it. As someone who already enjoys climbing you'd have a head start! Very Happy

A snowHead

@Bergmeister, definitely walking not climbing!

I am very tempted by what you and Weathercam describe. In my ignorance, I didn't realise this was a possible compromise which could liberate me from crowded pistes.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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I've used the same guide in the Espace Killy for the past three years. He knows us well, but he has always tested all of our beepers before and after lunch every day, always showed us individually how to use the beepers at the start of each holiday, and always insisted that we had a practice session finding a backpack with our beepers some time on the first day of each trip.

I don't know if it makes a difference, but he's from a small school of specialist backcountry guides rather than one of the big name outfits. Not all guides are lackadaisical.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Hurtle, my 14km walk I told you about in January was also a ski touring trip for Kenx, Weathercam and Paul. Gentle-ish climb up a road, although even the tourers got there before me. Embarassed

, lunch and then a ski back down. Most of the walkers sledged, but I walked with LynnX.

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@Bergmeister, interested to hear you say that. We really fancy doing a multi-day backcountry trip staying at mountain huts - our usual off-piste guide has been selling the idea pretty hard and it does sound great.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@richjp, @achilles, Now that Mammut have brought out the Aluminum 460g Alugator Light, there is no need for anyone to buy the heavier Poly-carbonate Ortovox Economic II to save weight. I for one wouldn't want to have the 'what if' question weighing on my mind in a rescue situation. I would rather carry an extra 200-300g and have a full sized metal shovel.

Also don't forget a snow saw with wood cutting ability. An avalanche below the tree line may well contain branches blocking access or trapping the victim.

After all it is free

@rob@rar, the polycarbonate shovel seemed just fine

Avalanche Skier POV Helmet Cam Burial & Rescue in Haines, Alaska from TahoeChappy

here [at 6:08].

That is a 7 year old video and poly-carbonate shovels have fallen out of favour since then. Ortovox only sell one, Black Diamond, BCA, Mammut, Voile, Pieps, Brooks Range etc don't sell any. If they were the way forward, they would all be selling them. The only other plastic/composite shovels are in the safety boxing ticking Skimo racer market.

What I find most bizarre about the video clip, is what did the digger with the Ortovox shovel find that was more important than digging out the buried skier. When he did return, he moved a couple of shovel fulls, then went off again Shocked

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@PowderAdict, it may have fallen out of favour - but then it worked.

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Thanks for useful suggestions above

You know it makes sense.

Wasn't this thread about a tragic avalanche in Tignes, rather than the merits if one av shovel versus another? wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@Markymark29, if the tragic events in Tignes give rise to people becoming more aware or casting aside crap equipment, then I think something positive comes from the thread evolving.

A snowHead

@SnoodlesMcFlude, +1

Just imagine what the reaction would be of the search team if you turned up with a 1.8m probe and a plastic shovel............

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Oh well popped in to the local mountaineering, climbing, ski touring shop earlier today in Briancon and just had to take this photo.

And it seriously raised the question have the likes of Ortovox and other major brands been able to manufacture "plastic" to the same characteristics as metal because they surely would not be producing them, and the shops of this quality would not be stocking them rolling eyes

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The buyer of the SkiTrab's in the picture are the target market for these shovels. Under competition rules you have to carry a Transciever, Probe and Shovel, but you know you aren't going to need them, so you go as light as possible.

I know the rules changed so that you now have to carry a 3 antenna Transciever, but I don't know about the probe and shovel.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Of course if you really want to know about shovels you can read the infamous Genswein Shovel Test which upset lots of manufacturers because one of his tests was stomping really hard on the top of the blade in a ski boot

http://www.bergundsteigen.at/file.php/archiv/2008/4/print/78-87%20%28zwischen%20himmel%20und%20hoelle%29.pdf

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I've just been catching up with this news and people's reactions. I'm still in the Alps at the moment and have been skiing on and off piste for the last week although, mostly coincidentally, not in the last couple of days.

It's been an interesting week for conditions. The avalanche risk (on our area Mont Blanc region of Haute Savoire) started at 2 ('at least at relevant altitudes for us) but we have had some big temperature variations and a punchy foehn at times. I'd been keeping an eye out for changes and it seemed to settle in at 3 above 2200m particularly N and W slopes.

I've read quite a lot about avalanche safety, done some training, practised avalanche rescue, carry the gear etc etc but I realise I'm a rank amateur and my prime way of building in a big margin for error is that I away from slopes >30 degrees when risk is > 2. It means I miss some good skiing but if I want to cut the margin finer I hire a professional to guide me - and I mean a UIAGM guide not a ski instructor.
Other people's risk tolerance will be different but given I have dependents and am sometimes accompanied by my kids, that is mine. Whether I am with friends or my children, I always talk through the risks we can see and the route we are choosing as a result and why I/we think it is OK. We've been talking about terrain traps all week. When I am with a guide, I always ask them why we are choosing a particular route - not to second guess them but to learn.

On a related point, this year my children are not having ski lessons. There are various reasons but one is that they were skiing more and more off piste in lessons and their instructor was taking them to areas I felt were not appropriate without safety equipment (neither he or they were carrying).

The Tignes incident is horrible and the family were under the supervision of an instructor with vastly more mountain safety experience than I will ever have and was appropriately equipped. But given the history of that slope, the avalanche report highlighting a risk at that altitude and elevation, the terrain trap and the angle of 38 degrees wasn't the most shocking thing that a professional would take clients, including children, there that day?

UIAGM guides get caught in accidents with clients sometimes. The qualification is not a magic amulet. But should instructors really be acting in the capacity of a guide? Personally I don't think so.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Some further analysis here.

http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/lessons-from-tignes-avalanche-accident/

After all it is free

I know the HAT commentary sometimes rubs people the wrong way by looking like finger pointing but I always find it pretty concise and clear as to lessons learned. The "30 deg keep it mellow" rule of thumb is particularly valuable to have in mind at all times, whether applied in a micro or macro environment, though of course not a magic amulet.

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I wish davidof would join this thread.

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@Dave of the Marmottes,

You know it makes sense.

Great point from HAT on them moving together slowly across that vulnerable slope. I suspect they moved together because they were boarders. A skier would traverse that much quicker so it would be less "inconvenient" to take the time to go one at a time

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

As a boarder I do wonder why you'd walk. I'm lazy, but I pretty much never do that. If you cock-up and get below a line you may have to take your board off to clamber back up to it, but that's not what happened here. Perhaps it's rocky - it looks like it may be. Over a slope like that clambering over rocks would appear very dangerous - how would you arrest a fall? How experienced was the group? What level was the instructor?

Local people: why would you walk into that? I guess if they were walking that explains why no ski-cut, but walking across an avalanche slope...

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It does seem that instructors and guides from that location are involved in quite a lot of guest fatalities. But I think that is broadly the French approach to the back country, with which I have no issues. Rather like parking in Paris, they let you go where it's dangerous if you want. You can take it or leave it, it's not necessary for everywhere to be the same. Even within other countries like the US there's a wide variation in the approach to safety in (say) Alaska and Colorado.

A snowHead

Jonny Jones Mine & Mrs MA's outlook is the same as Bergmeister's - ie just lovely to be out there in the middle of nowhere; we're not really after gnarly descents; it's just fantastic to arrive at a refuge and spend the night; we always go with a guide.

You sometimes have to pinch yourself when you see the refuge locations - and a beer on arrival is the best you'll ever taste after a few hours slog to get there. A totally different world to piste skiing - it's maybe not for everyone but we were hooked after a 2 day/1 night intro course in Chamonix.

Having done 4 or 5 multi-day tours, I'd definitely recommend the Silvretta region of Austria as an intro. We started in Iscghl and did 5 days/4 nights at different huts. The terrain is very mellow, the scenery amazing (some easy summits in the area) and the refuges very comfortable - mainly with hot showers (which is a definite ski touring luxury).

And we had powder and blue skies every day - which definitely spoiled us a bit... Laughing

Finally: if you join the UK Branch of the Austrian Alpine Club, you get 50% discount on accommodation in the refuges (which are known as hűttes in Austria). So even allowing for about €300 a day for a guide (generally for up to 5 people) it can work out as a very reasonably priced trip versus the cost of booking an organised ski tour with the Ski Club of GB etc.

A snowHead

@philwig, I'm local (been up in Tignes every day this week) and I've looked across at the accident site. I do wonder why they were walking as well. I'm with you, strap in and traverse. So you lose a smidge of height at the other end - who cares? Unless the group weren't great at traversing.

Walking across big, steep slopes gives me a sick feeling in my stomach. Feels so vulnerable.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Hurtle,
By "climbing" I meant "going up hill" or "ascending." The majority of skiers are horrified at the prospect of it, meaning all the more space for us tourers!

Jonny Jones,
I second Mountainaddicts comments. The Silvretta region would be a good place to start and you could book a guide for, say, 3 days (with 2 nights in huts) for a touring intro. I'm aware that Mountainaddict booked a guide then posted a note on this website to ask for others to join him and his Mrs on the trip, splitting the guiding costs between the Snowheads group.

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@jedster, Truly sad incident but regrettably predictable and preventable.

I agree with all your comments. Particularly- if in doubt get a guide and not an instructor.

Perhaps people think 3/5 is relatively safe, it isn't in the wrong circumstances IMO.

I make a point of asking about route planning and management when I go in the backcountry with a guide, I ski maybe 30 days a year, clearly I am no mountain professional and for me there's still plenty to learn.

It's not my intention to be sanctimonious or preaching, I just want people to hear my side of the story, they can reach their own conclusions.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@JeanPaulValley, All of this is way beyond any of my experience, but I was interested to read that >50% of Avalanche fatalities occur when the risk is 3/5.

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@foxtrotzulu, Very likely to be correct. People get blase, 2/5 still means less well bonded on steeper slopes. simply looking at flags or numbers is a false truth.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@JeanPaulValley, Bearing all that in mine, should it then be questioned as to if the system is efficient in conveying the risk?

I know it comes down to knowledge, and those with the knowledge would know the risk (you hope), and understand that 3/5 is considerable risk of a slide.
However making it clearer to those not so in the know would surely be advantageous.

After all it is free

I've skied Tignes since 1986 and worked multiple seasons there and I have NEVER skied that exact line. It just doesn't even ever feel safe. The shape of the slope, the bottom and the fact that I've looked out my window and seen it sliding so many times. It's what surprises me so much. If you want steep chalky snow its available in Tignes on slopes that don't have a history of sliding. Couple that all with the fact that we have a death trap of a layer in the snowpack and the mind boggles even more. Terrible decision making. Blunt, but true.

FYI having a guide doesn't guarantee they don't make poor decisions. I had one booked via Evo2 in Chamonix many years ago who took me down the Glacier Rond route off the midi and it turned into a very dangerous situation that involved 3 hours of walking out... He wasn't even a good skier.

Being an instructor myself and having done much training in avalanche safety I consider myself pretty well versed in making good calls for myself / family, but am I a fully fledged experienced mountain guide? Nope.. and I'd hire a local guide that I've researched in areas I'm not familiar with, not an instructor. It's your life they have in their hands. And taking kids down the lavachet wall was playing roulette. Well anyone down it on that line.

@Dzmarc, as I understand it that's why these days forecasters use adjectival forecasts - eg 'considerable' rather than '3/5'. However there remains a tendency among readers of those forecasts to revert to the previous 1-5 grading.

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@Inboard, very true.

I'm thinking more of the signs they post on lift queues, which still use the grading system. I know they put the text there, but how easy is it for people who don't understand it to just go ... 'oh its only 3/5 today, it will be fine.'

Those sort of uninformed decisions cause accidents, even if its not on the day they made that decision, as they could easily build up a self confidence which could lead to a future accident.

Help!!

Breaking news on BBC , avalanche Tignes

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