Crystal cancel ski guiding in Italy

A snowHead

The price will go up. Some people will pay that price; which means other suppliers of things to those people will see less of their money. Other people will not pay and chalet owners will see less of the money of those others. In what proportion - who knows? The only thing that is clear is that the more the price of something is raised by legislation above the market rate (or, indeed, lowered beneath it), the less business will be done (somewhere).

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@nemesys, I'm not aware that there is any compunction to agree on an internet message board: That is kind of the point. It seems you actually disagree more with your interpretation of what you think I said rather than what I actually said.

They are the minimum criteria for a level 3 instructor- it does not mean for a moment that I think or stated that the limit of their abilities is just guiding. I would like to see level 3 have more opportunities than they have now. At the moment the requirement is level 4 and level 3 would be a compromise. I'm saying most people would agree on some requirements but a lower level than is currently required. Exactly what that level is debateable and people will have different views.

The rules are set by countries and they are allowed to do so. Not me. I did not say I agreed with them. By agenda's mean our views including mine are influenced by our experiences and requirements so I have had leaders who were not up to scratch and don't particularly have a need for social skiing which influences my views just as your views are understandably influenced by your experiences. I was merely explaining the local view and that I've seen leaders get themselves and the group into difficulties. Personally white-outs when the mountains empty don't bother me so I will end up front but will do a lot more with a level 4. I merely made the point that I feel safer in difficult conditions with a level 4 and that they assess situations better. I've explained that the dynamic of a group change with a leader. It's my view that the sort of level is appropriate is that if the weather closes in they are confident in leading a group. That is my view based on my experience. No one has to agree with it. I've nothing against social skiing. I've done it occasionally and its been fun. I just don't think it is a big deal for most people and there are ways around it.

My impression from own experience and what I have read is that the Chalet market is far more significant in France than other markets. I did not say it did not exist in other markets.

Yes, indeed they will charge more or I think more people will book direct or go for lower grade options or as you say TOs will find a way to adjust employee packages if they can.

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@nemesys, I don't think I made my point clear on white-outs and not sure if I can now. I don't think the required level 4 is necessary to lead at a group. I was merely trying to indicate the standard I personally think someone should be to lead social skiing and my view and my experience is that someone who is comfortable and confident to lead a group when the conditions get difficult is to me an indication of someone who I think is of a sufficient standard. I never stated anyone is indifferent to a true whiteout even though to me it may look like a level 4 is but that is because they are still skiing well within their own comfort zone with a group.

Just because someone states a point does not mean that it is someone's personal view. It is what I have to do all the time acting on someone else's behalf but given your point I appreciate better that most people will not be used to that. I do try to indicate that I'm presenting an argument and state when it is actually my personal view. I do agree we will not agree as clearly your views are influenced by TO repping just as mine our influenced by my experience of TOs/rep leading but I suspect that our views are far less different that what you perceive. I find the debate interesting but I don't really have any strong personal views and I can see both sides. I'm not in the TO mkt as I normally book direct and have friends and acquaintances to ski with so what the local rules/TOs/other consumers do doesn't personally impact me.

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Well with all the talk of level this and level that, if you actually analyse what parts of the BASI syllabus would be appropriate for someone undertaking the activities of a guide in the resort given the understanding that no teaching is going on it is actually fairly little. Level 1 has a few basics - probably a day max and of the Level 2 content only the communication skills is relevant, say half a day. Level 3 is similar to Level 2 insofar as it is primarily teaching and understanding of the technical side of skiing which I would consider irrelevant. In fact the only module I would consider appropriate is the Mountain Safety one and even at least half of that would not be necessary as the whole focus of the module is off-piste so let's say 2 days. To be honest what we're taking about is more like a cut down version of the Mountain Leader certification from the MLTB.

The only other requirement I guess would be to be able to ski competently down black runs and that would be easy enough to assess.

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@dsoutar,

After all it is free

Yes it was someone's mountain safety criteria that said level 3 to me and the other elements suggested would be satisfied by level 2. Personally, I would say around 2.5 std skiing with relevant elements rather than the required level 4 but just can't see it happening.

@under a new name,

I agree entirely but I was trying to err as much on the cautious side to try and describe a solution that could be argued as something robust enough in any situation

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Agreed - I was trying to suggest a compromise - having to help your leader off the mountain when the conditions closed in didn't convince me and don't suppose would convince the French and Italians.

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you don't need to be a good skier at all (a few years back a number of British mountain guides would have struggled with L2; might still be some around today) but you need a bit of mountain sense and the ability to move steadily and safely whatever the conditions
I have skied with a few people from mountaineering backgrounds who would struggle with L1 but I would be more than happy to follow them off a mountain in bad vis
this comes back to the point that the skills needed to lead a group of intermediates around a mountain don't really fall into any of the boxes currently on offer; I don't really see anyone coming up with an internationally recognised qualification - there's no money in it so not really any incentive for anyone to push it through

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I think you are all jumping the gun. Crystal have decided to withdraw the hosting service, who else has? There has been no change in the law in say Italy so why are you assuming that the authorities will act any different than previous seasons.

I'm not so sure about the cut down mountain leader unless it's changed significantly. I did it 20 odd years ago and although pretty tough (in terms of requirements to pass) I am not sure much of it applied to having skis strapped on and making skiing related decisions. More map, compass and rope type stuff if I remember correctly. It was a military run ML course so maybe a bit different.

I personally think the level talk is a bit of a red herring. I have skied with some Level 2 skiers who I didn't think were that great skiers and some level 1's that I was fairly surprised could pass anything. Conversely I would trust any of the group I have my "lads" trip with anywhere (and they me) with not a skiing qualification between us but a huge amount of skiing and fairly significant mountain experience in some cases. I think as dsoutar said above the BASI levels, and what is required to become an instructor, don't necessarily tie in that well with hosting, if you think qualifications are required.

I think the way it was, in most cases, was perfectly fine. "Can ski, has a brain and is level headed" would suffice imo - but that's just my opinion. I am sure there are bad experiences but everyone is capable of having those on their own. Has anyone come up with any stats that say skiing with a "host" is more dangerous than skiing with your own group? Maybe they have, I really don't know? I would be surprised if they could yet safety is the oft touted reason for banning it.

The only time I have used a host in the last 20 years was when on a family holiday a couple of years ago in France, the kids in ski school and my wife wanting to potter around fairly slowly with a like-minded group. Having other people to ski with, meet the wife for lunch and have a beer with everyone in the evening served a great purpose. It's just a shame that option won't be available in many places for anyone in that kind of position again.

You know it makes sense.

+1 @nemesys, although I would never claim to having 100% of that brain all the time.

Ultimately, this all comes back to the (generally) French being protective of their (generally) ESF unionised quasi monopoly.

If one client that might otherwise have engaged an ESF moniteur purely as a luncheon companion goes elsewhere, that's worth a whole world of pain for many people over many years. (And I know of one such individual...)

'twas not always thus. I <think> the origins date back to the two poor snow seasons of 88-89 and 89-90 when many instructors and tour operators alike suffered and the ESF at the time was iirc a complete monopoly, so could swing its weight about as it liked.

Previously? Well, for example, in the two seasons mentioned the director of our local ESF hosted a pre-season bunfight for all the TOs and their ski hosts to welcome them back, encourage good referrals, make sure the hosts knew the instructors and vice versa and just generally appreciate that (then) without the UK TOs the typical instructor would get at best 6 weeks work.

I think that back then the typical Italian instructor was too busy ensuring he was appropriately coiffed, getting only the prettiest teenage Milanese to teach and making sure dinner was booked in the nicest of restaurants with them, to even notice any snot nosed Brits skiing around with a bunch of tourists.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

It's all academic though because they can set their own laws and the laws won't change unless there is sufficient market demand which is impacting people's resort decision which there doesn't appear to be.

A snowHead

@TTT, no, you are quite right. Like chalet holidays, I think the days of the chalet ski host are on the way out.

A snowHead

Just had an email from Esprit informing us they've also cancelled their hosting for Italy for season 14/15. Which, pros and cons aside, is a shame.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I see though that some TOs are still organising social skiing just without a TO leader. Many have argued that there is really nothing special additional to the TO leader role that differentiates people skiing as a group and no special skills are required so the logical extention of that is there is no requirement for a TO leader at all. TOs can still organise, introduce groups, give suggested routes, stops, meets and I'm not convinced that Brits are incapable of not reading Piste maps/signs so does not seem much to get excited about.

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@TTT, i'd have been very happy to have had 5 days off a week, as long as I skied with my new friends. Puzzled

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I think the main difference is that with someone assigned to the role of "leader" there is none of the social awkwardness of either reservation about assuming the role or rudeness about abandoning the alpha BS er who has assigned themselves to the role. With the TO totemic leader everyone can be comfortable even though he's really just to avoid awkwardness.

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@Dave of the Marmottes, I see a market in a group following a drone dangling a cardboard ski leader beneath it. Possibly with a bayesian voting system so that everyone in the group gets a voice and everyone things they just about got what they wanted.

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After all it is free

@ALQ, titter Laughing

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Ahh, but the drone is not allowed to be out of the (line of) sight of the operator -- So, drone leads the group of skiers, host follows up controlling the drone !! ; Sorted....

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I understand the role of the TO host as facilitator but some feel this person requires no special skills including apparently intelligence, humour or a sense of fun so in that case they seem somewhat redundant.

TO such as MW who say they will continue to organise social skiing can still introduce people and give a route with recommended stops to the Group for different levels. The Group could even do something outrageous like possibly use discussion of the route as a basis of interaction within the group. The TO adds a quiz or whatever.

The model seems to predicate itself on the basis that brits are incapable of organising a holiday independently, can hardly ski, can't read a Piste map and have no social skills to organise something among themselves. Seems unduly harsh in my experience. I've always found that with or without a TO leader the group manages to work it out among themselves or people drop out.

I was reading the other day that satnavs are counterproductive to people developing their own skills. Perhaps the same could be said for a host. People don't like change. Might be good for them to learn to adapt a bit, become a little more self reliant and interact more as a group.

@TTT, this is the third thread on much the same topic and I'm sure will be into double numbers of pages soon. Don't you get tired of saying same thing in response to same posts? Either you must be very fast at typing or copying and pasting from previous threads. What's your secret?

You know it makes sense.

@under a new name, @speed098, @albob, sorry to disappoint you all, but have you looked at the French rules on drones ? Very Happy

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@peanuthead, I do but I live in hope that some may adapt and look at things from a different perspective. wink

I just have different experiences from many on here which means I tend to have different views that is all. Secret is fast adaptive keyboard and variable work load.

A snowHead

@peanuthead, I do but I live in hope that some may adapt and look at things from a different perspective. wink

I just have different experiences from many on here which means I tend to have different views that is all. Secret is fast adaptive keyboard and variable work load.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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the post seems to have got away from the fact that, we have used the Crystal service for a few years, especially if its a new resort, we are a family of four, and even my (now 10) lad at 8 was more competent than whoever was guiding us, a fact that often caused some confusion when we first started off, anyway, as a family we would not have any intention of using a paid for service of instructors, and so the point of taking business off them is moot. We would use instructors for race training but then we would be doing that anyway. We have never expected to be 'coached' by the reps, just shown around the pistes pick up some recommended runs, good bars/restaurants to stop at etc, and its this service thats being scrapped, all this hogwash about getting off the mountain in whiteouts etc.....how are people meant to do this in their normal groups if they dont have a superman level 4 with them pmsl...some posters are maybe taking themselves way to seriously Cool

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Who said there was a problem with consumers? People have amusingly argued that the group leader needs no more skill than skiers have themselves so they are arguing that there is no requirement for them. It seems to be patronising to the consumer to think that they won't be able to manage themselves without a rep who is deemed to require no special skills. We will read the ski guides and have a chat with the reps about suggested routes and places to stop and off we go. We might arrange to ski with other people over dinner or in the bar or sign up for a meet up . Maybe it takes us a few minutes to check the route here and there. Maybe we take an unplanned diversion or stop here and there. Does it really matter. There is a run, it's white, you ski it. There is another bar, another restaurant, another day to discover yourself.

Yes it is all the same debate. Indignant gets excited that shock horror different countries and cultures have different ways of doing things and shock horror sometimes things change. I suspect that they will survive, the world will continue to go round and people will continue to ski.

After all it is free

No one is stopping reps recommending routes, bars and restaurants. It will continue. People have debated what would be a compromise qualification/standard that is all. If it is deemed hosts require no additional skills to the group then they have no added value and are surplus to requirements.

I think TTT, you are still missing the point here. Certainly in my experience, there was no-one in the group that was incapable of getting themselves off the mountain in poor conditions, finding there way round the resort, organising lunch stops etc etc. I know most groups could have functioned quite happily without the host and probably will do so in the future in the new regime but that doesn't deny the fact that it was a service that people enjoyed, despite how pointless it seems to yourself. Remember the old mantra, the customer is always right ? Well in this case they are regardless of whether you perceive them to be adding value

The problem then became that the various authorities, it seems egged on by protectionist local groups, deemed that this constituted a danger to those involved and must be stopped. In fact we all know that it really isn't a danger at all. How many people died / were seriously injured as a result of this unregulated activity over the years ? I'd hazard a guess at 0 deaths and probably 0 serious injuries. I'd also hazard a guess that considerably more injuries are sustained on the organised bar crawls that some operators run.

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Crystal cancel ski guiding in Italy

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