 Poster: A snowHead
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Fattes13, I suspect the French will just say they then become tourist guides, just like at Versailles or the Eiffel Tower, and need training and accreditation to be allowed access to the slopes or ski lifts.
A quick Google turns up the following course for wannabe tourist guides, "Technicien d'accueil touristique - option accompagnement". In total it requires 1,015 hours - or 7 months - of study!
Cue ski hosts learning all about local mountains, flowers and rivers for half the year pre-season!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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albinomountainbadger, Or doing a weekend course in another EU nation and claiming equivilance! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
Fattes13
But Le Ski staff don't have any qualifications to recognise. Le Ski are, in effect, trying to force the French to accept a new and unqualified job of 'ski concierge'. I don't see why Europe would be interested in that. Ski hosting doesn't exist in the UK so they can hardly claim French law is preventing them from exercising their profession. |
I've been skiing with Le Ski in Val d'Isere for a 5 of the last 6 years (didn't go with them last year) and nearly always enjoyed their hosting groups. On only one of the ski trips was the host not a BASI Level 2 instructor and that was the time when we didn't enjoy the hosting as much. This host did not have the more outgoing and service oriented personality of the other hosts and was also less confident in their skiing and being in the mountains generally. As a rule Le Ski seem to employ BASI Level 2 staff as their hosts so its not correct to say they do not have "qualifications". It is correct that they haven't passed the Eurotest and are therefore restricted from instructing but then they aren't instructing. In reality this is just another instance of protectionism I'm afraid.
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It's interesting to hear about the qualifications of some Le Ski hosts, but in doing so you undermine your own conclusion. You say they didn't all have BASI2 and by extension weren't required to do so to get the job. The fact that some had BASI2 could be as much an accident of recruitment as two of them going to the same university.
I imagine (again, would love the transcripts) that in any case the French would then take the view that BASI qualifications are related to instructing, and as these people weren't doing any instructing that qualification is irrelevant to what they were actually doing. Despite being recognised as very competent, a driving instructor doesn't automatically have the right to operate a taxi, for example.
Before crying about protectionism you have to understand that the French don't have an open working culture like the UK. Every job in France is catalogued, has a ROME code attributed to it and associated training and qualifications behind it. If you attempt to have a job that isn't on the list the system simply implodes (most often in paperwork). Ski hosts fall between the cracks of instructor, mountain guide and tourist guide.
Perhaps the French will be convinced to create a roll of Ski Host, requiring at least BASI2 or equivalence and on the proviso that these people act only as tourist guides and do not do any instructing. It will be interesting to see what the resorts who bring in their own hosts will require as qualifications.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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albinomountainbadger, I see French school groups being led around by teachers who clearly are not BEES1 standard, I'm guessing that they are qualified to Cadre Federal level, I'm also guessing that they are being paid for these hours.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Why all the fuss? We expect people who come here to obey our laws. UK ski companies should get on with complying with French law.
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| rjs wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger, I see French school groups being led around by teachers who clearly are not BEES1 standard, I'm guessing that they are qualified to Cadre Federal level, I'm also guessing that they are being paid for these hours. |
There's an exception for school groups (of course). It's mentioned somewhere in this thread. It might just be animateur, I don't know. One of the owners of the ski shop I currently work in is qualified/accredited as a volunteer to lead kids around the slopes but when I asked him if he was an instructor he very quickly replied with a definite, "non".
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| I imagine (again, would love the transcripts) that in any case the French would then take the view that BASI qualifications are related to instructing, and as these people weren't doing any instructing that qualification is irrelevant to what they were actually doing. |
Devil's advocate here, but if they use that argument against BASI/any other instructor rating, how can they then argue that an ESF instructor is any better placed to guide?
Comes back to that bit in the video with Simon Atkinson that it does seem that the French authorities don't really appear to understand what guiding is.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| thedrewski wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| I imagine (again, would love the transcripts) that in any case the French would then take the view that BASI qualifications are related to instructing, and as these people weren't doing any instructing that qualification is irrelevant to what they were actually doing. |
Devil's advocate here, but if they use that argument against BASI/any other instructor rating, how can they then argue that an ESF instructor is any better placed to guide? |
I don't think they have argued that, I diverged into the hypothetical a bit... But to develop it as I understand the French mentality, these 'hosts' were most likely not registered as instructors but chalet assistants, reps or drivers, so their instructing qualifications are irrelevant to their 'official' job. Additionally, you can't argue first that they don't need to be instructors because they are only tourist guides, but when asked if they have tourist guide quals respond, "no but it's ok because they are part-qualified instructors"! In real life, if a BASI qualified instructor with Eurotest and god knows what else wants to be a ski host I don't think the ESF or police would have any issue with that because he could just show his medallion and they would go away knowing he has the right to lead a group on the hill. He would have to be registered as an instructor though. If, however a bureaucrat did want to get arsey, he could possibly form the argument that ski hosting isn't instructing, so it must therefore be mountain guiding or tourist guiding, and if the host isn't 1) qualified and 2) registered with the authorities as one or both of those then he can't take money for it (see the post above for the example of a 7 month course on being a tourist guide)...
Ultimately yes, like Simon says and has been reiterated many times on this thread, they just don't understand what the job is and the French find it hard to believe that being good at 'A' automatically makes you competent at 'B'. Likewise, if you register as a self-employed person who offers a service (let's say masseuse) and one day decide you want to sell things too (e.g. massage oils) you have to submit more paperwork and await approval for a change in statut. This would be fairly unheard of in the UK so we just don't think about it in the same way.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 7-11-13 15:20; edited 1 time in total
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morningglory, I will rephrase then, LE SKI (Any TO) Staff are not required to have any qualification to fill the Ski Guide role by their employeers. The BASI L2 argument is a strawman in this discussion; I would say the minimum required is ISIA (Level 3 Basi) is what should be the Full time teaching standard in the EU, but that is just my opinion. The L3 includes a broader range of modules including a teaching module, and mountain safety specific course.
To say that at L2 they have not passed their Euro Test is skipping a whole 2 levels. Not 100% sure on BASI but for Level 3 there is 9 separate courses/requirements to complete and for L4 (French equivalence) there are 10 courses/requirements to meet including the speed test. The Gulf between L2 and L4 is not just the Eurotest it is much bigger than that!!! thedrewski, The previous may answer your question in relation to qualifications!
For ski guiding I don’t think instructor qualifications are relevant if the guides sole role is to take the customers around the mountain and show them the best Blue, red, black runs and advise them on where is good to eat and drink, and the best routes to get the most out of the time on the hill.
| Quote: |
Perhaps the French will be convinced to create a roll of Ski Host, requiring at least BASI2 or equivalence and on the proviso that these people act only as tourist guides and do not do any instructing. It will be interesting to see what the resorts who bring in their own hosts will require as qualifications.
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No chance, would make it too easy for cross –over and hard to distinguish between hosting and teaching and the ESF would never agree to it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Think you're right about the cross over risk, it'll just be tailored in a way to make jobs for local kids I imagine. Recently had an email from the French job centre here inviting me to pre-season training that would fit the bill. It was absolutely nothing to do with my current job, but just general stuff that aimed to make people 'ambassadors for the region' - visits to old churches, goat farms and cheese factories were on the list along with English, Italian and basic customer service stuff. Two or three weeks in total. I suspect that and lots of first aid will be what they'll want from any new 'hosts'. Actually skiing ability will probably be irrelevant.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What's lame about it?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
morningglory, I will rephrase then, LE SKI (Any TO) Staff are not required to have any qualification to fill the Ski Guide role by their employeers. The BASI L2 argument is a strawman in this discussion; I would say the minimum required is ISIA (Level 3 Basi) is what should be the Full time teaching standard in the EU, but that is just my opinion. The L3 includes a broader range of modules including a teaching module, and mountain safety specific course.
To say that at L2 they have not passed their Euro Test is skipping a whole 2 levels. Not 100% sure on BASI but for Level 3 there is 9 separate courses/requirements to complete and for L4 (French equivalence) there are 10 courses/requirements to meet including the speed test. The Gulf between L2 and L4 is not just the Eurotest it is much bigger than that!!! thedrewski, The previous may answer your question in relation to qualifications! |
Okay, I may be getting this wrong but I was under the impression that you can take the Eurotest as a BASI Level 2 qualified person and it does not require you to be at Level 3 or 4. I have drawn this impression from reading the blog of someone who was training to be Level 3 and took the Eurotest before knowing that she had qualified for Level 3 but I may have misread or misremembered it. Please feel free to set me right if this is the case.
Without wanting to start an argument when I'm a relative newcomer I would say that if your host is BASI 2 does has relevance. They are not untrained in being in the mountains and they do have an established level of skiing ability etc. Which of the following is likely to be safer? A member of a group of friends who has no training at all trying to bring a group of mixed ages and experience down off a mountain that they haven't skied before in a white out (which is perfectly legal), or a BASI 2 trained person who knows the resort well and has mountain experience? To state that they are not qualified to do this presupposes that the alternative is that all these groups will hire instructors as guides when actually what happens is that they look after themselves.
Oh and by the way that wasn't a hypothetical. I brought six teenagers from our group of friends off the hill in Avoriaz/Morzine when the weather closed in and all the other "responsible" parents were in the bar! They can all ski reasonably well but have no real concept of personal danger or how dangerous the mountains can be. My only very limited qualifications were when I qualified to take outward bounds type groups up a hill to 1,500 feet when I was at Sandhurst eons ago. Believe me I would have liked to have had a host with me then for moral support if nothing else!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I should have said that in my case the only support I would have expected from the host was that they have led the way from the front and I would have skied at the back or the other way round, whichever they preferred. Nothing more than the Le Ski hosts would normally do.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| What's lame about it? |
Well it has double meaning, firstly it doesn't add anything interesting beyond the headline, secondly it's unbalanced. It's just a summary of events to date followed by a rehash of what is presumably a Le Ski press release. Two quotes from Le Ski, none from anyone on the other side. If Planet Ski can track down an ESF director then I'd expect the Telegraph can.
Consider the language used too. Take the word 'ban'. The facts, like them or not, are that ski hosting has been illegal in France since day one and now the TOs simply don't want to run the risk of breaking the law any more now they've been called on it. It hasn't been 'banned' like a drug or food additive would be, it has been withdrawn by the vendor.
It's just like the French one I posted describing 'someone-who-may-be-Simon-Butler' as pigheaded, and that drew a fair bit of flack for being unfair.
Would have liked to see a mention of the fact the ski hosts weren't paid properly too, but guess that doesn't fit for the advertisers.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 7-11-13 16:25; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| What's lame about it? |
"Nick Morgan, managing director of Le Ski, speaking to Telegraph Ski and Snowboard ahead of the appeal, said he was confident the decision would be overturned, and was prepared to take the legal battle to the European Court of Human Rights."
The European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. The European Court of Justice is the final arbiter on EU law. A journalist with a clue would know the difference.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| morningglory wrote: |
| Without wanting to start an argument when I'm a relative newcomer I would say that if your host is BASI 2 does has relevance. They are not untrained in being in the mountains and they do have an established level of skiing ability etc. Which of the following is likely to be safer? A member of a group of friends who has no training at all trying to bring a group of mixed ages and experience down off a mountain that they haven't skied before in a white out (which is perfectly legal), or a BASI 2 trained person who knows the resort well and has mountain experience? To state that they are not qualified to do this presupposes that the alternative is that all these groups will hire instructors as guides when actually what happens is that they look after themselves. |
It's not about simple ability, it's about certification for specific roles.
Even in the UK we come across it. My dad was involved in writing an ISO standard but then, as part of some contract work, he had to have a recognised certificate stating competence in the application of that standard. That he was involved in writing it is irrelevant, he needed the certificate so had to go on a training course to 'learn' about his own standard.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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feef I can believe that but it doesn't stop it being asinine to make the guy who wrote the standard do a course on his own standard 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| morningglory wrote: |
| feef I can believe that but it doesn't stop it being asinine to make the guy who wrote the standard do a course on his own standard |
asinine or not, the government agency had a tick box on their requirements sheet for 'ISO standard certification' and without that tick the contract couldn't be awarded.
Now if something HAD gone wrong, a technicality such as the omission of that tick, for whatever reason, would be a lawyer's field day.
I can imagine there are parallels in this ongoing case.
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[quote="feef"]
| morningglory wrote: |
| feef Now if something HAD gone wrong, a technicality such as the omission of that tick, for whatever reason, would be a lawyer's field day. |
As someone who once trained to be a lawyer before coming to my senses about my unsuitability for that august profession I can concur that the only people who are loving this whole situation are said "learned friends". Bring on Jarndyce & Jarndyce!
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| Quote: |
Okay, I may be getting this wrong but I was under the impression that you can take the Eurotest as a BASI Level 2 qualified person and it does not require you to be at Level 3 or 4. I have drawn this impression from reading the blog of someone who was training to be Level 3 and took the Eurotest before knowing that she had qualified for Level 3 but I may have misread or misremembered it. Please feel free to set me right if this is the case. |
As far as I am aware you should have completed your ISIA (Level3) to take the Eurotest but not 100% on that. But you will still require your level 3 & 4 with Eurotest to be ISTD certified and allowed to work in France. The exception to this is if you work as a stagierre but you must complete the L4 including Eurotest within a limited time frame.
| Quote: |
Without wanting to start an argument when I'm a relative newcomer I would say that if your host is BASI 2 does has relevance. They are not untrained in being in the mountains and they do have an established level of skiing ability etc. Which of the following is likely to be safer? A member of a group of friends who has no training at all trying to bring a group of mixed ages and experience down off a mountain that they haven't skied before in a white out (which is perfectly legal), or a BASI 2 trained person who knows the resort well and has mountain experience? To state that they are not qualified to do this presupposes that the alternative is that all these groups will hire instructors as guides when actually what happens is that they look after themselves. |
I would not call it an argument; probably clarification of what is involved in these courses. Potentially you can pass a L2 with 2-4 weeks in the mountains, and do all you’re teaching hours etc preperation in snowdomes, or dryslopes. The course content etc would make you better than a green seasoinerre but maybe not much better than a season veteran with a good few years under their belt
There is a huge JUMP from level 2 to level 3 and a quite significant jump again to full level 4 ISTD (French equivalence). This sentence is in no way intended to lessen the achievement of getting your L1 or 2 but as someone that is 2 courses shy of his L3 I have been through it and can look at the differences with perspective.
| Quote: |
| Oh and by the way that wasn't a hypothetical. I brought six teenagers from our group of friends off the hill in Avoriaz/Morzine when the weather closed in and all the other "responsible" parents were in the bar! They can all ski reasonably well but have no real concept of personal danger or how dangerous the mountains can be. My only very limited qualifications were when I qualified to take outward bounds type groups up a hill to 1,500 feet when I was at Sandhurst eons ago. Believe me I would have liked to have had a host with me then for moral support if nothing else! |
morningglory, Nice to see a parent acting with common sense and reason, but that will be the Sandhurst training in you Do you have any ski instructor training as the above is an excellent example that even a person with no instructor training can safely guide a group off a hill if required in difficult conditions.
As I have said repeatedly on her the French own the mountains and have their rules if you want to teach there you have to play by their rules. That said I really do believe the EU should and could make the ISIA an acceptable standard for teaching anywhere in the EU and the only reason it has not happened is because Henri, is playing protectionism with its winter sports industry much like it does with a lot of its businesses.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
As far as I am aware you should have completed your ISIA (Level3) to take the Eurotest but not 100% on that.
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That's not the case. You can do it with a L2.
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skison, cheers was no 100% on it, but there is a big difference in knowledge and experience between a L2 with a Eurotest and an ISTD or ISIA!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
skison, cheers was no 100% on it, but there is a big difference in knowledge and experience between a L2 with a Eurotest and an ISTD or ISIA!
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Yes, there is a difference, as you would expect with the additional training to complete ISIA & ISTD. I would wager though, an experienced L2 with ET v ISIA will not be very different technically. As a teacher I would expect more of a difference.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skison, Depends on the skier, a strong racer could get a L2 and pass the Eurotest but may not be a great bumps skier? Just depends I guess, that said most strong racers have little or no issue adapting.
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Fattes13, No ski instructing experience whatsoever. If I had to choose between pure ski instructing experience or mountain experience I would probably rather have someone with more mountain experience up there with me. Believe it or not one of our party has in the past been in Mountain Rescue but he was safely ensconced by the fire with a libation or two whilst I brought his son down. 
Off topic but I would really like to hear from folks who have managed to combine BASI with full time work in the UK. Would dearly love to have the time to do the BASI 1 & 2 but job and family commitments tend to keep me rather tied up.
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You know it makes sense.
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morningglory, I do it throuhg a diffrent system will drop you a PM.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Skiworld are proclaiming social skiing is back in France.
http://www.skiworld.co.uk/blog/social-skiing-is-back/
| Skiworld wrote: |
| Skiworld are delighted to be able to offer the very popular social skiing service once again to guests staying in selected resorts in France. Skiworld have teamed up with a number of ski schools in resorts across the Tarentaise region including Val d’Isere, Tignes, Les Arcs and Val Thorens. |
I guess it is a more positive approach or perhaps just touting the ski school. In fact it is only 2 hours on the Sunday afternoon, which may help with orientation but is not long enough.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| Why all the fuss? We expect people who come here to obey our laws. UK ski companies should get on with complying with French law. |
(1) This is still being litigated, so it is not finally determined that LeSki broke French law
- and even if the highest French court finds they did -
(2) France does not have complete discretion to impose arbitrary labour laws, which follows from one of the founding principles (free movement of labour) of the EEC/EC/EU and numerous directives enacting that principle.
I don't think we'd be having a similar discussion if a British TO employed British drivers who were nicked for driving on the left in France.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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laundryman, there isn't any movement of labour here though, these hosts are all supposedly 'seconded workers' but their job doesn't exist in the UK so how can they be? Really don't get that argument.
Boring but relevant: Also in the news here in Haute-Savoie has been the busting of a dozen companies employing Portuguese labourers without paying the right taxes and social contributions. The were using a similar temporary workers wheeze to British chalet companies; workers were paid in Portugal not France, and accommodated in lodgings that don't meet French standards. Anyone posted to an EU country is supposed to receive exactly the same treatment as a native, regardless of standards in the country of origin. Referring to foreign workers in general, the employment authorities even made specific mention of, "some workers who at the end of the month find themselves with little more than 300€ in salary." Sounds familiar...
The Portuguese have been cheap labour in France forever so this isn't new. A new anti-fraud agency, the Codaf, was setup in 2010 to exclusively hunt out illegal working practices and clearly as President Hollande searches for every last centime he can find, the French are looking in places they've previously ignored.
The common practice of setting up a recruitment or payroll agency explicitly to provide French companies with foreign workers outside the French system has also been shot down by the Urssaf as 'pas possible'.
Interestingly, one of the arguments used by the prosecution is that the labourers didn't bring their own tools, but used those provided on site. Could this mean British chalet hosts 'seconded' to France need to bring their own knives, and 'social skiers' their own skis, to be legal? On the other hand, the Portuguese workers were seen to be under the orders of a French company. If the chalet in which staff work remains controlled by a British company, this may be a lifeline for the TOs.
Generally speaking, I'm really surprised the TOs are antagonising the French with the ski host issue given how much else there is to lose.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Anybody know if this is affecting any of the companies other than the UK TOs? Thinking along the lines of the Scandi operators like STS who I think have hosting (only have experience of Austria, not sure what they do in France).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| laundryman, there isn't any movement of labour here though, these hosts are all supposedly 'seconded workers' but their job doesn't exist in the UK so how can they be? Really don't get that argument. |
I'm not really sure of the distinction you are trying to make, but I think 'free movement of labour' has a much wider definition than you suppose. The aim is to allow as much flexibility as possible.
| Quote: |
Boring but relevant: Also in the news here in Haute-Savoie has been the busting of a dozen companies employing Portuguese labourers without paying the right taxes and social contributions. The were using a similar temporary workers wheeze to British chalet companies; workers were paid in Portugal not France, and accommodated in lodgings that don't meet French standards. Anyone posted to an EU country is supposed to receive exactly the same treatment as a native, regardless of standards in the country of origin. Referring to foreign workers in general, the employment authorities even made specific mention of, "some workers who at the end of the month find themselves with little more than 300€ in salary." Sounds familiar...
The Portuguese have been cheap labour in France forever so this isn't new. A new anti-fraud agency, the Codaf, was setup in 2010 to exclusively hunt out illegal working practices and clearly as President Hollande searches for every last centime he can find, the French are looking in places they've previously ignored.
The common practice of setting up a recruitment or payroll agency explicitly to provide French companies with foreign workers outside the French system has also been shot down by the Urssaf as 'pas possible'.
Interestingly, one of the arguments used by the prosecution is that the labourers didn't bring their own tools, but used those provided on site. Could this mean British chalet hosts 'seconded' to France need to bring their own knives, and 'social skiers' their own skis, to be legal? On the other hand, the Portuguese workers were seen to be under the orders of a French company. If the chalet in which staff work remains controlled by a British company, this may be a lifeline for the TOs.
Generally speaking, I'm really surprised the TOs are antagonising the French with the ski host issue given how much else there is to lose. |
It seems to me the effect of the Hollande government's machinations is to prevent as much work in France as possible; be it by British, Portuguese, French or Martians.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Laundryman wrote:
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2) France does not have complete discretion to impose arbitrary labour laws, which follows from one of the founding principles (free movement of labour) of the EEC/EC/EU and numerous directives enacting that principle.
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If you care to read (all 161 pages of it) DIRECTIVE 2005/36/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 7 September 2005 regarding the recognition of professional qualifications
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:2005L0036:20110324:EN:PDF
you will find that "Free movement of Labour" is not a "carte blanche" to do as you please. In particular with what are "regulated" professions in a member state. The profession of "ski instructor" is a regulated profession and therefore France is quite within its right to require that individuals from other member states meet a certain level. In the UK this profession is not "regulated" (i.e. no professional qualification is legally required to exercise) and therefore there is no "right" to exercise it in another member state. "Ski hosts" have no qualification professional or otherwise.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ski hosts" have no qualification professional or otherwise.
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.... therefore they aren't a regulated profession and should be able to do what they're doing. Innit.
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Laundryman, my view of freedom of labour is that people are able to exercise their professions anywhere in EU, or are free to move themselves anywhere in the EU and take up a profession. Is that not right?
For me, a kid going for an interview in London then arriving in France to say, in effect, "Hi, I'm a ski slope tourist guide for ABC ski in the UK, they've sent me here on secondment to work for five months" doesn't fit this description because the whole thing is a lie.
Said kid could arrive in resort independently and say he wants to set up a ski host business. Fine, but he would be expected to undertake a training course like all the other local Jean-Claudes who think that leading people around some easy blue runs sounds like a pretty cushty job. Which training course is obviously another matter...
Freedom of movement doesn't mean letting foreigners bypass rules to disadvantage locals (except in the case of UK uni tuition fees, but anyway...), and if an unqualified French person would be arrested for ski hosting then so should a British one.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 9-11-13 19:00; edited 1 time in total
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Lizzard, you should know that if something is not regulated in France then it is not allowed to exist.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Freedom of movement doesn't mean letting foreigners bypass rules to disadvantage locals |
That depends on the rules. There's a rich vein of EU case law demonstrating that just because a national law also applies to locals, that does not in itself make it compliant with EU law. Consider, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot where it was ruled that German law as to "beer purity" may be enforced as to locally brewed beer but not to imported beer sold in Germany.
As far as ski instruction is concerned, from what I can make out, the arrangements as to the Eurotest and so forth have been signed off by member governments and other stakeholders such as ski instructor professional bodies as the route to Directive 2005/36/EC compliance within a regulated profession. Whatever one's view of the Eurotest, it seems unlikely to be overturned by a court.
Whether "ski hosting" is synonymous with "ski instruction" is another question entirely. Directive 2005/36/EC requires regulation by member states to be "objectively justified and proportionate". Whether equating ski instruction and ski hosting meets that requirement, we can and probably shall all argue until the cows come home. However the principal of vertical direct effect of EU Directives means that Directives are directly binding on the state and state bodies i.e. Directives trump national law in that situation. Therefore as far as the prosecution of Le Ski is concerned, the "objectively justified and proportionate" requirement of Directive 2005/36/EC could come into play, regardless of French national law.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| As far as ski instruction is concerned, from what I can make out, the arrangements as to the Eurotest and so forth have been signed off by member governments and other stakeholders such as ski instructor professional bodies as the route to Directive 2005/36/EC compliance within a regulated profession. Whatever one's view of the Eurotest, it seems unlikely to be overturned by a court. |
That seems to be a widely held assumption, but has anyone seen any statute or regulation that gives the Eurotest legal force?
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