 Poster: A snowHead
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what stops people setting up as independent ski schools ? unless they are in it for the long haul then basically a combination of local legislation / ski schools monopolised by the ski resort or work permit issues (depending on the specific country). plus the risk of finding your own clients.
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This article doesn't identify a single British ski school in Austria. http://www.planetski.eu/guides/17
So maybe those "non tariff/anti competitive barriers" are, despite the endless moaning about France, rather higher in Austria?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haggis Trap Canada's top level is CSIA Level 4.
In the Niseko Resort Area, Hokkaido, Japan an all day private lesson costs :
Niseko Base Snowsports - JPY 50,000 for 6 hrs (approx. 375 euros. JPY 9,000 additional charge up to 4 students max.)
Niseko Academy - JPY 48,000 for 5 hrs (approx. 360 euros. No additional charge up to 4 students max.)
NISS - JPY 49,000 for 6 hrs (approx. 367 euros. No additional charge up to 6 students max.)
The first two companies are independent, the last is the Hanazono ski school.
When I worked for Niseko Base Snowsports my base hourly rate was JPY 2,200. So for a non-request private day I would receive JPY 13,200 of the JPY 50 - 59,000
They organised the visa and I did get a season pass though.
You can work as an independent instructor in the Niseko Resort Area if you provide :
Skilled Labour Visa (need to show documented proof of 36 months of instruction experience. That's approx. 9 seasons)
Instructor certification
And from this season each instructor working in the Niseko Resort Area must purchase an all mountain ski pass at a cost of JPY 105,000 (approx. 750 euros) AND an instructor pass at a cost of JPY 105,000 (approx. 750 euros)
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 23-09-13 18:41; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A simple answer to the problem DONT GO TO FRANCE!! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A simple answer to the problem DONT GO TO FRANCE!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DONT GO TO FRANCE!!
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go to Austria, instead, where you will pay as much for your instruction but the poor instructor will see a much smaller proportion of what you pay. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The French have been very much against ski escorting/guiding for many years
Having worked for a major T/O and ski guided for quite a few seasons I can vouch for the fact that it provides a service outside the normal ski school environment. It allows people to ski socially, meet new people, find good lunch haunts, avoid lift queues, explore new areas and have a stress free day without having to forever think about where you are and timings to get back at the end of the day
Do you need the best skiers, no but competent yes. We were tested by BASI before allowed to guide
Did we take business away from ski school, no We promoted the benefits of ski school all the time and many who joined us who plainly thought they were better than they were directed to the ski school's direction
Whilst guiding is not for all I am a firm believer that it is a good service the T/O's provide and surely there is room for all out on the white stuff we all love and cherish.
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Not the first time I've written this, but the TO's using the word "guide" wasn't the smartest move.
And employees and ex-employees referring to themselves as "guides" after the TOs changed the job description to host, escort, ski leader etc gave the French more than enough ammunition.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Guyrhofen wrote: |
| We were tested by BASI before allowed to guide |
What has it to do with BASI 
BASI cannot award you a qualification to 'guide'.
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+ 1000
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Guyrhofen wrote: |
| We were tested by BASI before allowed to guide |
What has it to do with BASI
BASI cannot award you a qualification to 'guide'. |
Clearly BASI entered into contractual arrangement to carry out an assessment and/or give some training (it's hardly rocket science) in group management on the piste. BASI passed on some skills and got paid for it, so that's what it had to do with them
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think you missed stewart woodward's point.
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Yip, there is a huge difference between a BASI qualified instructor being employed to provide staff training, and BASI (as an organisation) running a formal qualification.
The ski host issue is nothing to do with BASI, it is not their remit, and they are right to stay well clear. The fact remains that most UK ski hosts (and also SCGB reps) are unqualified to work on a commercial basis - even if they may have been provided with some in house staff training.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Yip, there is a huge difference between a BASI qualified instructor being employed to provide staff training, and BASI (as an organisation) running a formal qualification.
The ski host issue is nothing to do with BASI, it is not their remit, and they are right to stay well clear. The fact remains that most UK ski hosts (and also SCGB reps) are unqualified to work on a commercial basis - even if they may have been provided with some in house staff training. |
Right, so BASI weren't under contract to do this and it was done by some freelancing BASI trainers? Can Guyrhofen clarify this point?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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^ For as long as I have been a BASI member (some 13 years) they have never offered a formal qualification on their pathway for ski hosting / ski leading.
SnowSport Scotland do have a ski leader course - this is aimed primarily at school teachers, scout groups, ski clubs etc taking groups onto the Scottish ski slopes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Well, it's obvious it would not have been a BASI contract. Similar freelance training work is done by BASI trainer Phil Smith for the Ski Club of Great Britain leaders course.
In no way is BASI itself awarding any form of qualification in this sort of exercise, just as if you join a ski class led by any BASI instructor - at the end of a week's instruction you don't get some sort of BASI certificate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PJSki,
Guyrhfon stated
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| We were tested by BASI before allowed to guide |
This implies that they passed some sort of BASI test before being allowed to 'guide'.
I think as stated by Mike Pow you missed my point
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
PJSki,
Guyrhfon stated
| Quote: |
| We were tested by BASI before allowed to guide |
This implies that they passed some sort of BASI test before being allowed to 'guide'.
I think as stated by Mike Pow you missed my point |
Do BASI run any courses or carry any training that isn't part of their pathway to a teaching qualification?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, reading between the lines, what the OP is trying to say, IMV, is that his company employed BASI freelancers to assess/train people and only after 'passing' this assessment/training would the company allow them on the hill. Still on the wrong side of French law of course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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phil smith isnt a basi trainer any longer so the training he provides the SCGB has nothing to do with BASI.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Anyway, reading between the lines, what the OP is trying to say, IMV, is that his company employed BASI freelancers to assess/train people and only after 'passing' this assessment/training would the company allow them on the hill. Still on the wrong side of French law of course. |
Exactly. And what I, and I think stewart woodward, was referring to.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| Anyway, reading between the lines, what the OP is trying to say, IMV, is that his company employed BASI freelancers to assess/train people and only after 'passing' this assessment/training would the company allow them on the hill. Still on the wrong side of French law of course. |
Exactly. And what I, and I think stewart woodward, was referring to. |
Don't think the OP was claiming to be on the right side of French law. His mistake was to use the words 'BASI' 'test' and 'guide' in the same sentence on a forum regarded by many (people I've spoken to) as one of the most pedantic snowsports boards on the net.
Anyway, as you were...
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Whilst I have a St John's Ambulance First Aid certificate I don't and have never called myself and don't consider myself to be a doctor.
What many regard as pedantic I call right & wrong.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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'As you were'
| Mike Pow wrote: |
Whilst I have a St John's Ambulance First Aid certificate I don't and have never called myself and don't consider myself to be a doctor.
What many regard as pedantic I call right & wrong. |
^ feck me that was quick.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
Whilst I have a St John's Ambulance First Aid certificate I don't and have never called myself and don't consider myself to be a doctor.
What many regard as pedantic I call right & wrong. |
To be pedantic my qualification is with St John Ambulance not St John's
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ha ha 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pam w, wrote
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and I still want to know how, if the French are paying their instructors so generously, they can run so efficiently that they can offer lessons at, or sometimes well below, the cost of lessons elsewhere. Bit of a myth, if you ask me.
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From my experience, ESF group lessons are cheaper by 25%-30% compared to the alternatives. The catch is in the size of group: ESF groups of 10 are small and during busy times can get up to 14, I've seen even 15. Compare that to groups of max 6 with the independents and it's easy to figure that the ESF are grossing more per lesson. Having taken a few group lessons at Club Med, french peeps wanted/expected being leaded round the slopes i.e. ski hosting while the kids were at "petit club". So
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sugardaddy, but individual lessons with esf are often very cheap too, even,as mentioned above, in val d,isere.
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You know it makes sense.
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sugardaddy, my Club Med lessons with ESF were excellent. Proper tuition, not just ski hosting (that is because I am rubbish!).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Yip, there is a huge difference between a BASI qualified instructor being employed to provide staff training, and BASI (as an organisation) running a formal qualification.
The ski host issue is nothing to do with BASI, it is not their remit, and they are right to stay well clear. The fact remains that most UK ski hosts (and also SCGB reps) are unqualified to work on a commercial basis - even if they may have been provided with some in house staff training. |
Right, so BASI weren't under contract to do this and it was done by some freelancing BASI trainers? Can Guyrhofen clarify this point? |
I think I may have use wording which may have confused so will clarify
Over the years working for a T/O I have spent much enjoyable time escorting/guiding/leading whatever you like to call it groups around the ski area where I have been working.
My last training was held by some well renowned and highly qualified BASI instructors without any certification or qualification, They were on hand to assess we could safely lead a group and ski to a decent standard. The course was effectively a risk assessment. No more no less.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Anyway, reading between the lines, what the OP is trying to say, IMV, is that his company employed BASI freelancers to assess/train people and only after 'passing' this assessment/training would the company allow them on the hill. Still on the wrong side of French law of course. |
Exactement
Apart from BASI coming in I have also had training in the past from the British Association of Ski Patrollers. Again probably on the wrong side of French Law but who cares as was working in Austria.
No issues with Austrian or indeed Italian ski schools, they seem to see mutual benefits of working together unlike the French.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| thedrewski, going all the way to Japan in protest at the 'locals-only' policy of the French ski industry is pretty damn committed to the cause! |
Missed the boat on a Canadian work visa and the Japanese are more than happy with a CSIA level 2 for their ski school. Works for me!
(As it has in Canada, Austria, Switzerland, Italy..... but not France obviously.)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^ Not actually true.
You could work in France with a BASI L2 as a "stagiere" with an approved ski school.
Though you do would have to pass the test technique (which is apparently easier than the Euro Test).
All these rules are just the same for French locals.
Much of the anti French ranting is misinformed - their system is just as tough for the locals.
Designed to keep the Parisians and also to stop any old "gaper" from calling themselves a ski instructor
Info here :
http://www.basi.org.uk/content/employment-france.aspx
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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haggistrap, You may want to edit your post a while back where you say
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Only British L4s (the very top level qualification) can work at all in France
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As you correctly point out above you can work in France with a BASI L2 and Test Technique. A few years ago you could work with a BASI L3 but they then changed the rules to add the Test Technique for ISIA stamp holders as well.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 27-09-13 8:40; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah well, as a one-time ski instructor (I must refresh my BASI!) ... who taught hundreds of beginners up to parallel ...
I think the Eurotest is the biggest load of nonsense since the guy who developed rocket-powered skis. Maximising speed has absolutely nothing to do with teaching the basics of skiing. Control of speed is the essence of ski instruction.
Down with the Eurotest!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Do you even need a L2 as well as the Test Technique? As long as you pass the Test Technique and join the French system I was under the impression you could then work as a stagiere? Or do you have to have a L2 in order to be able to sit the Test Technique?
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snowrider, If you want to do the French system you can of course do that. To enter the French system you must pass the Test Technique and do a course called the Preform which is a 2 week course. You then are in the French training system and have around 4 years to complete your exams including the Eurotest.
If you would like to go down the BASI pathway you need your L2 BASI plus pass test technique. You then can work for a French training ski school while you do your BASI modules. You have the same 4 seasons to complete your ISTD.
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Ok so having the L2 lets you skip the Preform? But even if you are intending to go down the BASI Pathway I think you now need to join the french system and at least pretend you are going to go down that system.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowrider, You join the French system in that you get a log book and need to work in a school that has Training Centre status. Have a couple mates who did this but my info is a couple of years old, may have changed since.
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These comments (published yesterday) aren't likely to have much impact on the debate, but since they're penned by one of the most experienced ski writers in the UK - John Hill of Good Ski Guide - they're worth noting ...
http://www.goodskiguide.com/authors/news/author/john-hill [link to 'French Lessons' story on that page]
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To further aggravate the situation, Crystal have stopped using the ESF and given all business to Ski Evolution in the major resorts ... most tour operators simply use their staff to show people the nearest lifts, best restaurants etc, but many abused this by using staff to take guests out on full ski days and multi-resort tours ...
Where do we stand? Whilst 10 years ago we fought the French for banning British trained instructors - the French are right this time however. It's the law of their land that you must be a qualified instructor to lead at all, and we should all respect that ...
We also think that the British tour operators should show British politeness in their host country, by following the law. |
I wonder how many readers of Good Ski Guide (is it published this year?) agree with its publisher on those points?
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FAQ
