 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
skimottaret, so what you're concerned about is that the Trainer or BASI did not maintain the standard - that's a legitimate concern and would cheapen the qualification, but actually it isn't anything to do with the WSSA as such. It's down to the Trainer or BASI. Maybe we should all go do the CSIA II.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
slikedges, not at all, the original trainer who spent two weeks with the group failed them maintained the standard, A new trainer comes in and then they pass..... 
If the clear BASI process of a 5 or 10 day resit after a course failure wasnt adhered to is what i am concerned about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
skimottaret, there's a built in assumption there isn't there? Perhaps the original guy was too harsh, maybe demonstrably so, and the second guy enforced the "correct" standard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| stocky wrote: |
slikedges, I think that it would have a detrimental effect on the more serious members of the course to have people in the group who, although they may be very good skiers technically, may not be interested in the teaching/coursework side of things. This would, in my opinion definately cause problems and potentially reduce the chances of passing for some of the borderline cases due to lack of support from other participants. I know for a fact that if I was paying £6k+ for a course and there were people on it who were doing the skiing side of things and tossing the teaching/learning to teach/helping others to teach side of things off then I would be majorly pi$$ed off.
This I think is the main problem with the whole Gap year option of qualification, BASI endorsed or not. |
True but tough titties - it's up to the business running it who they want to train, and up to the punter paying to decide if he might care less for his own goals than for the goals of others!?
Which is why I have a problem with gap courses in general if their only attitude is punters through the door rather than quality of the end product.
| stocky wrote: |
| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| Spyderman wrote: |
I think the existing partners would be extremely annoyed with BASI, as they have invested considerable time, money & risk in setting up their businesses in France,as British ski schools, complying with all of the laws that go with operating in France.
|
Sorry if I've misunderstood, but isn't BASI British? If so, then what the heck has France got to do with it? Surely BASI can run their courses in any country (in fact, I'm sure they use Zermatt, which last time I checked was in Switzerland) |
I don't think it is possible to set up an independant ski school (non ESF) in France unless you hold the BASI ISTD or equivalent qualification which may be why Warren runs his courses in Switzerland. I will happily be corrected if this isn't so. I just remember hearing it when I was on a course once.
|
"Qualified" in France does indeed mean ISTD but I refer you to
| slikedges wrote: |
| There's no reason why I should even know how to ski in order to set up, run or buy a ski school doing a gap course or otherwise as long as I use qualified instructors. |
|
In France you would not be able to set up/run/buy an independant ski school able to run a Gap course unless you are 'qualified' to ISTD standard so your comment above is a moot point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
laundryman, i could see the odd person being on the edge and not quite making the grade with one trainer versus another. It is subjective for sure, but for a whole group to fail and then most pass with a second trainer smells a bit funny given that these people where in a low end group that was there mainly for the training.
again AFAIK if you fail you have to spend another 5 or 10 days before a resit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
skimottaret, the circumstances do seem odd, but it's still jumping to a conclusion to say that the second examiner was too lenient, rather than the first too strict.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
laundryman, perhaps, but if a was a dodgy re examination instead of a full 5 day resit i am tending to jump to that conclusion
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
stocky, so the objections and prejudices of the natives aside, if for sale, in principle if I wanted to go and buy BASS or ESF Courch 1850, I couldn't do it, unless I was personally ISTD? Are you sure? That's a bit like saying to own an airline you have to be a pilot, but I guess I wouldn't be that surprised that such a thing could be true in the wacky world of French ski instruction protectionism.
As far as the Gap courses go, are you intending on doing one? Why should you have a problem otherwise? If you are you can always try to choose one with more stringent or teaching orientated entry criteria, rather than one in a nice resort or one that's cheaper etc. If you're not, what's your problem? These organisations are businesses, they have no duty to prevent even no-hopers from spending their money however they like (though they may choose to do so as a good business practice to boost their reputation and future sales), and also no control over who the punters will choose to spend their money on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
slikedges, That is what I am led to believe, yes, you must be an ISTD or equivalent to run an independant ski school in France.
With regards to the Gap courses, no, I am not intending to go on one but I am working through the BASI system and agree with skimottaret with regards to the entry criteria for some of them and the effect this may have on the quality of the students on the courses and the potential pass/failure rates. Couple this with the potential effect on the business itself (damage to reputation etc) and it all becomes an issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
stocky, sorry, I'm being dense, what's the issue you have with Gap Courses then? How does the quality of the students on the courses or the pass/failure rates affect you/damage the reputation of the business? Are you concerned that BASI or some Trainers may be passing candidates who actually aren't up to the mark?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Does this thread deserve to die as its not really about Warren's business any more and was based on what appears to have been an inaccurate rumour in the first place?
Surely its not news that people will do qualifications they have no intention of using directly professionally- you might as well kick 75%+ of students out of UK universities and ban English Literature etc as a school subject.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| Surely its not news that people will do qualifications they have no intention of using directly professionally- you might as well kick 75%+ of students out of UK universities and ban English Literature etc as a school subject. |
Unless you hold the view that English Literature degree is of rather "cheap" value, since the majority of its students do not intend to work in that profession. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well I think if you've reached the required standard to get your qualification, BASI or BA, Gap or not, and whether you want a career or just to get another bit of paper in the bag just for kicks, good on ya! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Hey skimottaret,
you could be right...
would love to contribute to this thread but off to Greenland tomorrow so no time...
Still good snow to be skied up high folks, in the Alps and in Scotland (Ben gullies getting a hammering at the mo'), get out and have it while its still there...
Here's hoping the polar bears aren't hungry!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
offpisteskiing, I thought so,,,
Perhaps when you get back from Greenland you could post a few pictures and perhaps a little information on your trip i am sure people on the Forum would be very interested in hearing about your adventure.
good luck and make sure you are not the slowest runner in the group in case the polar bears get hungry
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
What is important for BASI, the paying public and the students, is that proper standards are maintained.
However 10 out of 10 students being failed is a catastrophe for the students, the ski school that trained them and indeed BASI. The BASI system is supposed to have a good safeguard to stop exactly what happened here from happening. The trainee instructor course finishes with the student either being asked to resit the whole course effectively a fail, or being advised they are good enough to proceed to the instructor course, with a report on what needs to be worked on and an estimate of the number of weeks or even years that might be required. The failed students here did their trainee course and passed, 5 weeks before starting the instructor course.
The idea that 100% fail one week and 80% pass a couple of weeks later is troubling and as stated above, 3 things might have happened; the first examiner was harsh, the second was soft or that they were marginal and improved in the time between courses; i think the third option could have been true for one or two but 8 is less credible given the short time between the two courses.
So too harsh or too soft? These students were in fact seen by 4 BASI examiners the first on their trainee week who passed them ready to proceed, the second on their instructor fortnight who failed them, the third (not mentioned previously in this thread) the BASI technical director who to his great credit went to verbier to find out what was going on and skied with the failed students for two days before the resit, and the forth who did a full 5 day resit with them the following week and passed 8. While I dont know what the BASI Technical Director made of their standard I expect both the original examiner and the resit examiner were made well aware, and the fact that they were subsequently passed would indicate that he thought they were up to standard.
On balance it would seem that first examiner was too harsh.
juice
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 27-04-07 11:40; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
juice, Welcome to You sound well informed on the WSA GAP class in question and thanks for clearing up the situation. It sparked heated debate and i for one wasnt clear as to how 0 of 10 passes went to 8 of 10. Initially, it did smell funny but no one, until you came forward could confirm that they did a full resit as opposed to just being reviewed by another trainer.
IMO If the class all failed, then did a proper 5 day resit and passed it sounds to me the system was adhered to and did its job. I am pleased that they were required to do a full 5 day resit, work on their problems and then be re examed by another trainer. I am delighted to hear that the BASI tech director came out to see what happened and spent two days with the students. Shows they care and want to get it right.
For me it is a big thumbs up to basi and WSA for following the rules and getting a fair solution. Without all the facts perhaps i was too harsh on this group.. but i still have a problem with Warren taking on people for BASI SKi Instructor courses when the students expressed interest is purely performance improvement, they should run a technical performance camp and not put themselves, the students or BASI in such an awkward position.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| .. but i still have a problem with Warren taking on people for BASI SKi Instructor courses when the students expressed interest is purely performance improvement, they should run a technical performance camp and not put themselves, the students or BASI in such an awkward position. |
But you've already said this earlier on in the thread
| skimottaret wrote: |
| slikedges, nothing wrong with trying to bag a trophy as long as you put in the effort and have the skills to do it and subsequently pass... |
Once again you appear to be returning to a position of prejudice against those who don't want to be career instructors. Also, saying that taking on such people gets the WSSA into an awkward position, you've made the assumption that those who failed in the first group didn't want to be career instructors. It is equally possible that such an awkward position could have arisen with a group of people who wanted to be career instructors. It's even possible that such an awkward position could arise with a group of students after performance improvement on a technical improvement camp at the end of which some kind of externally validated certificate of competence is awarded only if an independent assessment shows the achievement of a consistently applied and stringent standard.
I'm sorry but I'm starting to feel that the main reason some people don't want people who aren't career instructors doing BASI III is they don't want everyone else to have one too. This would be selfish but quite understandable. If there is a more worthy reason, someone please explain it to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
You know, just because you hold a badge doesn't necessarily mean you're a good instructor...... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
veeeight, absolutely right! The badge merely means you achieved the qualifying standard when assessed. To be a good instructor requires so much more, so no reason to feel insecure - the wish to instruct alone gives you one edge over a trophy hunter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
You are right I am having to repeat myself a lot in this thread and i promise this is my last post.
| Quote: |
skimottaret wrote:
slikedges, nothing wrong with trying to bag a trophy as long as you put in the effort and have the skills to do it and subsequently pass...
Once again you appear to be returning to a position of prejudice against those who don't want to be career instructors.
|
How do you reach that conclusion from my statement. I have no such prejudice, it says exactly the opposite. I also said in an earlier post that it is laudible for people to want to get a further professional qualification.
Just to be clear I am not against anyone wanting to take an instructors course as long as they are there to learn how to teach skiing and not just solely to improve their performance. I have spelt out my reasons why ad nausium in previous posts. Whether they want to teach as a full time career, part time at a dry slope, to help their friends, or just for personal understanding is fine by me.
The only reason i wasted so much time with this debate was to try to get a better understanding of the merits of the GAP course route for obtaining a BASI 3. My daughter may in future do an instructors course and initially from the posts the GAP route didnt look like a good option. I perservered to try to get to the bottom of the reversal of the 100% failure group as if it wasnt above board i would have a problem with the integrety of the BASI qualification.
In the end everything looks fine and i would certainly consider a GAP course, but would now know what questions to ask the course provider.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is this dead now...?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JT, Nope about half way through, I reckon, we are awaiting David Goldsmith's views and then Tirn Brown's 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| stocky, sorry, I'm being dense, what's the issue you have with Gap Courses then? How does the quality of the students on the courses or the pass/failure rates affect you/damage the reputation of the business? Are you concerned that BASI or some Trainers may be passing candidates who actually aren't up to the mark? |
My issue with them is, as I mentioned before
| stocky wrote: |
| I know for a fact that if I was paying £6k+ for a course and there were people on it who were doing the skiing side of things and tossing the teaching/learning to teach/helping others to teach side of things off then I would be majorly pi$$ed off. |
It would be better if these people had the option to go on a season long performance based course (were one available) and not an instructional course. If they put in the effort on the instructional side of things then I have no problem with it.
With regards to BASI /Trainers passing people who shouldn't then NO, I have no worries about that. My only issue is as I mentioned above. Plain and simple.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| JT wrote: |
| Is this dead now...? |
Almost
I'll add my limited understanding and views.
My understanding is that Warren is a BASI 2. Whatever his qualification he's an inspirational skier and coach. The coaching I've had with him is some of the best I've had anywhere. And, for my sins, I've done quite a lot.
The "deal" with BASI European Business Partners is that they can both run the GAP course and assess the candidates themselves using their own BASI Trainers. Providers, like WSA, who aren't business partners need to bring in an independent, outside trainer - even if they have one on staff.
I have the benefit of knowing someone who was on the courses in question. The description of what they were asked to do on the first assessment sounded horrendous - much closer to BASI 2 standard than BASI 3.
Personally, I did my BASI 3 to improve my personal performance and not to teach*. I intend to continue following the system because, for me, it's good to have a structured framework to work within.
* Notwithstanding that I now need 200 teaching hours for my BASI 2.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
I wonder how many people do a BASI III course merely wanting a performance course and caring not one jot if they get their bit of paper at the end. I'd take a punt that they're fairly uncommon. I'd've thought near enough everyone would want to get their bit of paper at the end of a time-consuming, challenging and expensive journey, for both external validation and bragging rights. In order to pass the BASI III I'd assume you have to learn something about how to teach skiing, even if that knowledge is put to no greater use than to improve your own performance, so it seems we're all in agreement for this group of students. For the hopefully less common animal who just wants training and doesn't care about the trophy, I'd agree it could be annoying and detrimental for other students to have them around, but still feel it's up to the provider how he makes his money and the individual paying punter where he spends his.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
slikedges,
I'd probably fall into your first category....
I have taken hundreds of hours of private lessons every year I've skied bar the last 2-3....
and had no interest in how I compared with others only that I improved each year...
it became a problem in some ways as I was so hard on myself because i wanted to ski like those I skied with... all of whom had skied for >30 years and taught MANY seasons all over the world.... they had to send me to group lessons to try to get me some perspective... I still struggle with it...
Fastman just recently introduced me to racing via his special race course in a bottle and then Nastar... that will probably keep me happy atm... I have sufficient challenges there to keep me interested ...
BUT... I have at various stages contemplated doing APSI, PSIA, CSIA, skilehrer(?? austrian level 1) or BASI entry level courses and then perhaps the next one... and I'd do it more for the training than the piece of paper... (some of my instructors were trainers in various of these systems).... a few years back we took to assessing my skiing versus the candidates just because it was a nice convenient measure...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
little tiger, to fall into the first category, it doesn't actually matter whether you want external validation or bragging rights or not, self-validation (though pretty much impossible) is fine as long as you're committed to the entire process required to get the piece of paper. If you only want the performance bits and aren't going to try for the teaching bits then it'd be the second category. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| little tiger, to fall into the first category, it doesn't actually matter whether you want external validation or bragging rights or not, self-validation (though pretty much impossible) is fine as long as you're committed to the entire process required to get the piece of paper. If you only want the performance bits and aren't going to try for the teaching bits then it'd be the second category. |
I'd try for the teaching bits .... but I'd be measuring against myself (as always) so getting the paper would not be the necessity that it may be for others... I might be miffed if I thought I should be able to do it and did not achieve what I had set my mind on... but if i thought it was beyond me I'd not mind....
I actually have had a few goes at playing teacher or teachers aide... once with a downs syndrome woman >40 years of age - that was very interesting as we had to convince her she wanted to give it a go in the first instance.... end of the week she skied the bunny hill on her own (with ski bra) and the tears of thanks from her sister paid back all the time spent many times over!! Still one of my favourite ski memories...
I usually send friends with instructors - but will ski with them after the lesson and we practice what they learnt...
So I'd be interested in learning more about the teaching - even simply for interest sake
I don't have huge testosterone issues or a need to compare dick size... hence it is very easy to simply ski for me not bragging rights!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
little tiger,
I don't think so! You demonstrate being HUGELY competitive, if only against yourself - though not only so, viz
| Quote: |
I was so hard on myself because i wanted to ski like those I skied with
|
Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'd also like to ski well but am too lazy to put in the hours of effort that you have, in order to achieve that. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Hurtle,
you took the first one out of context... simply ski FOR ME
you can ask Fastman about the racing...
He was the one checking out how many others I had ahead of me or what others times were...
Me - I'm the one getting stroppy with myself because I fluffed a transition or 2... and wanting to know what I have to do to get the handicap down to the next level... so I can work out if that is possible this season.. or next.... or....
I'd get so annoyed when they would announce the time and medal but NOT my handicap... the guys in the race hut got to know me because I told them off for not telling me the handicap!
I simply get mad at myself when I don't ski like those I ski with - as I think I'm useless.... Which is kinda normal for me and skiing(or any sport)... I spent a few hours wondering why I was being so poorly coordinated only to discover a heap of ice attached to the tails of my skis... anyone else would be cursing the skis - I curse me... I cannot tell the difference and will always assume I'm being a klutz because that seems most logical to me..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
little tiger, I absolutely understand all of that, since I am similar. The difference between us is your absolute determination to haul yourself out of klutzdom. I greatly admire it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
I don't think so! You demonstrate being HUGELY competitive, if only against yourself - though not only so, viz
| Quote: |
I was so hard on myself because i wanted to ski like those I skied with
|
Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'd also like to ski well but am too lazy to put in the hours of effort that you have, in order to achieve that. |
I don't ever expect to COMPETE with my trainers...
Two are ex australian junior team, one grew up skiing and racing at whistler with an instructor dad, they have coaching quals, austrian staatliche, psia instructor trainer, australian instructor trainer, etc to their names...
Fastman matches his name! and that is when he is skiing SLOWLY for me to follow.....
I just expect I should be able to hang on their ski tails .... and get upset when I fail....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
| little tiger, I absolutely understand all of that, since I am similar. The difference between us is your absolute determination to haul yourself out of klutzdom. I greatly admire it! |
Similar?
I never met anyone quite like me please explain?
Are you dyspraxic perhaps?
Or a stroke victim?
Brain trauma?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
little tiger, Similar is not the same as "quite like" - by which I think you mean identical. Of which of the problems you list are you particularly proud? The similarity I was referring to was a belief in not being good at something, but working quite hard (up to a point) at getting better at it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hurtle,
oh sorry...
misunderstood...
I have some neurological issues that make my movement patterns similar to those with brain trauma... hence stroke, etc... It is a little unusual and hard to spot unless you happen to be trained in certain movement stuff - apparently then it stands out like a sore thumb...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
little tiger, And yet you're obviously a brilliant sportswoman. Good on you! I merely have - according to a physiotherapist I just consulted about a skiing injury - such misalignment of various bits that, if I didn't keep fit and do Pilates, I could probably be a stand-in for the Hunchback of Notre Dame. But people tell me that all physiotherapists, osteopaths etc etc say that kind of thing - to keep you coming back! I just want this person to get rid of the pain in my arm, not rebuild my entire skeleton. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
little tiger,
| Quote: |
what is wrong with arm???
|
Not too sure, got nasty whiplash when a young English nogwit skiied into me, and over a few weeks (including another skiing week, which didn't help, on account of carrying rather heavy skis on that side) the pain travelled into shoulder, and down into arm and fingers. But it's definitely getting better, in fact it started getting better by itself as soon as I made an appointment with the physio, so I don't think I shall go on shelling money out in that direction for too much longer. I'm finding that careful stretching, including on rowing machine (which physio said was OK to do) is helping the most. So, as and when I can cross my fingers again, I will! Thanks for asking.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
