Warren Smith Verbier Gap Course.

A snowHead

I've just had it on good report that the Warren Smith gap year course, this year has not been very successful. Of the 28 students on the course hoping to get BASI grade 3 Ski Instructor. The grand total of none passed. 0 passes out of 28 is shocking. What went wrong? I can't believe that all 28 were of such a low entry level, that after 10 weeks training at least some of them could have passed. At £6500 a throw, there must be some pretty upset people.
0 out of 28 is incorrect, it was 20 out of 28. I was given incorrect information. Apology below.

A snowHead

It is an expensive 10 weeks with nothing to show for it at the end of the day.

I had assumed, wrongly, that a qualification was guaranteed on completion of the course.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Latchigo, the 1 week Foundation Course and the 2 week Instructor course will be done by BASI appointed trainers. I personally know the BASI trainer that carried out one of the foundation courses, for the Warren Smith gap course. A pass is never guaranteed. I have been on the BASI web site to look up their gap courses. The 'Warren Smith Academy' is not mentioned as an approved Gap course provider. As far as I am aware, Warren Smith indeed holds no BASI qualifications whatsoever. Looks like a case of buyer beware.

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Hmmmmmm, from what I heard it was only one of the groups that everyone failed in (ie 0 out of 10, not 0 out of 2 Cool

...

Word on the street is that some of the folks had only skied 4 weeks prior to the gap course which begs the question: What did they expect?

If I went to a golf instructor I would expect someone with a long background in the sport, not someone who had taken it up last year...

The BASI courses run on these gap courses are provided by Trainers (generally with no link to the Gap provider, for impartiality), normal BASI standards apply, hence if 10 people out of 10 aren't up to the standard 10 out of 10 fail, £6.5k or not...! The beef should be with the Gap providers who take money from people with so little skiing background when it is highly unlikely from the outset that they will have a succesful outcome, but hey, business is business.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Extract taken from Warren Smith Website

"Pre-Course Assessment

All applicants will need to go through a telephone interview with Warren Smith before receiving a placement on the course. The aim of the interview is for Warren to assess your skiing standard, experience and general attitude towards the course. Contact Warren on 07775 500599 until November 12th 2007, thereafter his Swiss number +41 (0)79 359 6566 to arrange a convenient telephone interview time. "

I think a bit more than a phone call is required, to assess someones skiing ability, before they part with £6500.

If you book on a BASI Foundation course. the BASI trainer will give you a report at the end of the week, with a recommendation or not, for whether you are a suitable standard, to proceed to the 2 week instructor course and 70 hours ski school experience.

To me the website infers that at the end of the 9 weeks, you will have a BASI qualification. The only thing guaranteed about it is that you will be £6500 poorer.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Extract from New Generation website:

"The popular ten week Gap Courses run in Courchevel and Méribel. Students train with New Generation - the ski school of the year 2005 (Which Books). All students take their BASI Ski Instructor courses and exams as part of the Gap Course. Over the last 3 seasons our student exam results have been exceptional - 100% of our students passed the BASI Trainee Instructor course and 85% of our students went on to pass their BASI Ski Instructor exams.

How good a skier do I have to be?

At the start of our course students should be able to ski black runs confidently linking turns down the fall line, being in control of their speed. We run Selection Days on UK dry slopes in the summer. This is a great opportunity to find out more about the gap course."

In reading the 2 websites, I now understand why New Generation are on the BASI approved list and Warren Smith Academy are not. Ski test vs.Telephone call. 85% pass rate vs. 0% pass rate.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

hmmmmmmmm...!!!

After all it is free

Spyderman, would check your facts before posting. I believe 11 of the people passed initially and a further 8 passed the resit last week. I wasn't on the course myself but got to know a number of people who were and all the people I know were very happy with the course.

Hi Spyderman and everybody involved in this chat.

My name's Warren Smith and I am the Director of the Warren Smith Ski Academy. I received several emails tonight from British skiers that ski with our Academy. They were very alarmed of the news story that was written regarding our GAP 2007 program. After registering with Snowheads tonight I was extremely disappointed to see such information regarding our 2007 course.

I would like to take this opportunity to set the record straight and give the actual fact on our GAP program for 2007. Our 9 week course this year was a huge success with the students who over this time changed their skiing far beyond their expectations. Our reputation in the British ski coaching industry and on the snowheads website speaks for itself. We give the highest standards in ski coaching and our GAP 2007 students received this level of service from us. I am sure you will hear about this on Snowheads in the next few days from the students themselves.

We took on 28 students on the GAP program this year. Most students were on the course to pass the BASI 3 Qualification and receive high level performance coaching. Some students attended the course just to improve their skiing and were not so interested in the final ski instructor qualification. 20 of our students passed the BASI 3 Qualification and several of them are now working in schools in Verbier. This is the same as with many of our GAP 2005 and GAP 2006 students who are now working in the alps for ski schools.

The level of service we received from BASI was very good as with the previous two years. As an organisation we have a good relationship with BASI and are happy with how their qualification works. On this years BASI 3 Training course (the 10 day assessment) there seemed to be a problem with the consistency of some of the scores. As with all assessments there will always be a slight inconsistency with scoring. In two of our groups the initial problem with scores was corrected and BASI organised for us a re-assessment of the students. On completion of the course all students were very happy with the BASI Trainer and 20 in total passed. This was taking into account 3 students not being able to finish the course for various reasons. Overall, we are extremely happy with this year's course. Because of the success of the Warren Smith Ski Academy GAP Year Instructor courses and their critical acclaim, we are now 60% booked for GAP 2008.

I would like to thank all the students for the effort they put into this year's course and determination they put into making the changes. I would also like to thank Gerry at BASP (British Association of Ski Patrollers), Sean at BASI, Gilbert at Alpinisme.ch for the Avalanche safety course for the GAP students, Peak Ski for the sponsored accommodation price and making it possible for us to have our accommodation in Verbier, Julien Moulin at Televerbier for help with the lift passes and last but not least the Academy coaching team, Phil Hopper, Rob Stanford, Tom Goldney and Charlie Tate.

Finally, after logging into Snowheads, I am amazed at how good the site is. Brilliant way of getting the low down on everything to do with skiing, nice work! I am sorry you received the information in the way you did Spyderman, it is important that the info on Snowheads is accurate for the future integrity of the site. Now I have been on this site I will be telling everyone I know about it. Hope you all had a good winter season and got many powder turns in. I am over to the UK in May for our courses at Sno!Zone at Xscape centres. Maybe see you there.

All the best,

Warren Smith
Director - Warren Smith Ski Academy

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

warrensmith, Can I be the first to welcome you to snowHead

's

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

warrensmith, welcome to snowHeads!

It is always good to hear the story 'from the horse's mouth', so to speak wink

Spyderman, to say that 0 out of 28 passed seems to be a bit wide of the mark

snow reports

warrensmith, Firstly, may I offer my apologies, for my initial post stating that all 28 candidates failed. This information was given to me, in what I thought was good faith, by a BASI qualified instructor. I cannot check his source presently, as he left on a ski trip 5 hours after our conversation. Rest assured I will though.

From BGA, 's information, 11 from 28 passed and 8 further on resit. That to me makes 19, but still 20 out of 28 still seems to be a fairly low pass rate, considering the amount of training given. Is that because your entry requirements are that much lower than your competitors? or was it a case of just a co-incedence with this years group.

Your Gap course is not recommended or indeed mentioned, on the BASI website, in their list of Gap course providers. As such a large provider of Gap training courses, 28 people in 3 groups, this omision from their website surprises me.

Well done to all those who passed the course.

Welcome to snowHeads. Once again please accept my apologies for the incorrect statement regarding the numbers, but would be pleased to receive your comments on the points I have raised above.

Hi Warren, good to see you setting the record straight.

So in rough terms then New Gen and Warren both have about the same pass rate ( 85% New Gen and 80% Warren Smith ).

Spyderman...pleeaase check facts like this before posting as uncorrected this could have had a bad effect on Warren's business.

You know it makes sense.

BGA,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

warrensmith, Welome to snowHeads

I am very surprised that you have taken so long to find us, as I believe that several snowheads have been on Warren Smith courses in one form or another.

It's good to see that your working relationship with BASI is such that they are prepared to re-asses.

A snowHead

rungsp, So in rough terms then New Gen and Warren both have about the same pass rate ( 85% New Gen and 80% Warren Smith ).
going on BGA, 's info only 11 passed initially, that's 39%. and after a re-sit, from warrensmith, 's information 20 finally passed, that's 71%.
71% and 85% to me are hardly the same.

A snowHead

boredsurfin,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Spyderman, Warren stated that 20 pased BASI 3. He also stated that 3 people of the original 28 did not complete the course for personal reasons.
So 20 of 25 that took the test passed = 80%

FWIW one of the New Gen guys in Verbier told me that there was something "fishy" with BASI when they did the initial test that so few passed. I really have no idea what that was though.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

warrensmith, welcome to

snowHeads

, good to see you setting the record straight personally and quickly

You'll need to Register first of course.

Spyderman, if I'd just posted something so completely wide of the mark, I'd apologise and keep my head down for a bit. As Warren and others have pointed out three people didn't complete the course (one thru injury that I know of). One of the students, who I know quite well, went on the course just to improve her skiing and wasn't enormously fussed about the qualification. Having seen the improvement in her skiing over the season she is a better technical skier than a number of BASI 3s I know so I was surprised she didn't pass.
As others have alluded to there may have been a political element to this, I know some of the background to it, I also know that as things stand Warren has a good relationship with BASI and they are happy with the training he provides. To anyone thinking of doing his course, over the last three years I have met a large number of the GAP students in Verbier and never spoken to one with a bad word to say

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Hi Guys,

Firstly, thanks for the welcoming comments. Been looking over the website this morning and it really gets a good message across. I think the equipment section is really useful, probably more so than a lot of ski test themselves. I will give some feedback on the Volkl skis I ride just in case anyone out there is planning on getting a set. Not sure if anyone has tried the new bindings yet (Jester + Duke) but they are amazing. They one an award at ISPO this year.

With regards to the discussion on our GAP 2007 course, thanks 'rungsp' for pointing that out. I hadn't actually thought of it like that but I guess your right. It's important for people reading this chat to realise that the Warren Smith Ski Academy GAP program does not exclude people that just want 9 weeks intensive training. As I said we had several people booking onto our course who just wanted to become great skiers.

To be pushing the percentage statistics is a bit misleading. Because of the popularity of our GAP program we have the luxury of running 4 groups in one course. So, rather than people doing a course and finding themselves in a set group of 10 persons (that either slows them down or at the other end of the scale, that makes them ski too fast and breaks there confidence), our course this year had 4 groups of 7 persons. This way people can be place between groups 1 and 4. GROUP 1 is people generally looking to build confidence and change their skiing so they can ski all mountain terrain, carve effectively, ski moguls with control and tackle steeps without feeling intimidated. GROUP 4 at the other end of the scale generally starts the GAP course already at the technical level to pass the BASI 3 qualification. Their training is pushed harder and faster and generally with a more athletic approach.

As far as the value for money goes, the £6,500 is actually sponsored by several different company's to bring it down to this price. The retail price of the course works out at £7,800. The main reason it is discounted is because of Joyce Read who runs Peak Ski. She offers us a chalet from her company Peak Ski which is located in the town centre of Verbier just next to the Migros supermarket. She gives me a £1000 reduction in the cost of the chalet for the 9 weeks. Also, Televerbier, the lift company and organisation behind the Maision Du Sport (local Swiss ski school in Verbier) help us with the price of the lift passes which takes another £300 off the price. The fact that we run 7 persons per group really offers quality and value for GAP year money. You can see a breakdown of what is included in our GAP 2008 program at the following link: http://www.warrensmith-skiacademy.com/gap-program.htm

When people sign up for our GAP year course they have usually skied with us before or we catch up with them at the Sno!Zone centres at Xscape. However, because we have the luxury of running 4 levels this is not so essential on our program. When I run the telephone interview with the odd one or two that I don't get to ski with in Verbier, Saas-Fee or Sno!Zone, I have specific questions that I put to people that allows me to get an accurate idea of where they are with their skiing. It has not let me down yet.

With regards to the questions regarding BASI's conduct through our GAP 2007 course, it was excellent. We had great trainers like Andy Freshwater, Dougie Cleland, Pete Gillespie and Sean Langmuir helping our students through the BASI system. I would thoroughly recommend the BASI system to anyone doing a GAP year course. We have had great results over the past 3 years from 90% to 80% pass rates and the BASI system is probably one of the best in the world.

This chat room is hopefully doing my typing some good. My fingers are getting cramp. How is my grammar by the way? I'm a wee bit dyslectic so spelling using gets a bit wayward. Anyhow, got to go and teach some instructors now in the moguls which my back in not looking forwards to too. Maybe see you again for another chat. Feel free to call me by the way if you have questions on the GAP 2008 program or GAP courses in general (+41 79 359 6566)

All the best,

Warren Smith
Director - Warren Smith Ski Academy

After all it is free

I just completed a BASI 3 exam with NEW GEN. we had two groups of 10 non gap year people in courchevel and had 17 passes (85%). One girl in our group finished injured and still managed a pass. One didnt turn up on the last day and was failed another was not up to standard and one other just was under the wire and failed. All the students improved their skiing over the two weeks and several are already taking modules for their ISIA's.

I think the 10 week gap student course people had a lower pass rate. This is due to many factors IMO (them being youngsters and perhaps having too much nightime fun during the course, not enough ski experience, questionable motivation as to why they are on the course, assuming that over 10 weeks their skiing will come good in the end, etc) The GAP year students training in Meribel IMO looked awful as a group when performing central theme side by side with the 2 week course people and i thought in general were of a much lower ability.

I dont know the exact number of fails for the NEW GEN GAP but perhaps offpisteskiing could give accurate figures, I dont want to do a Spyderman!!

Before being allowed on the new gen course i had a half hour ski session with the tech director at MK and i found their pre course vetting to be very thorough.

IMO for non GAP year two week courses the PASS rates are irrelevent, the exam is for a professional qualification not a ski school badge. The bar is set at a level and the trainers work with what they are given and as they are independent from the school itself i dont see how the school can take credit unless it is for the quality of their pre course vetting. GAP year is different though as they have 10 weeks to get it right.

The two BASI trainers were excellent and strived extremely hard to ensure consistency in grading. The groups were periodically put together, they stayed late and reviewed each others video footage and in the end got it right. (with one exception wink

)

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

BGA, I posted information that was incorrect, I have posted an apology. I have also been in email correspondence with Warren directly, to offer my personal apology, for the incorrect statement about the figures.
Why should I keep my head down? That would seem like a dishonourable thing to do.
There still seems a number of issues outstanding however, with regard to the entry level of candidates and why BASI do not seem to recognise the Warren Smith Academy as a provider of BASI gap courses.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

maggi, perhaps and yes for a certain subset of GAP peeps, but in warrens lower group 1 i would be surprised that the "mummy and daddy types" would admit to that, they tend to be gung ho and overinflate their abilities.

my feeling is that the Group 1 types are the source of the political friction between BASI and warren smith and looking at his videos are not just youngsters on a long paid for holiday. They are average skiers who just want to improve

Again why put a group people who start off with only the intention of improvement through a professional qualification exam and when 10 of 10 fail wonder why?

You know it makes sense.

eng_ch, The course is BASI Ski Instructor not BASI "I am now an expert skier".

why would you feel the need for a "piece of paper" to tell you how well you ski?

Skiing ability isnt like a golf handicap, if you want to measure your own skiing ability go do a race and measure your times, dont set out to become a teacher it cheapens the qualification.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

warrensmith,

A snowHead

eng_ch,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Spyderman, I had a look at those the other day, first time I'd heard of them - they seem to be primarily based in/around dry/artificial slopes in the UK? And if I, as a snowHead

regular, only heard of them the other day, they're not exactly well known, are they?

In any case skimottaret, asked why people take a BASI 3 course when they aren't interested in teaching and I simply offered one reason why that might be. Note the use of the subjunctive Wink

You need to Login to know who's really who.

eng_ch, BASI qualifications arent set up for "formal assessments" they are there to teach people how to teach and given that a large component of skiing instruciton is done through demonstration setting a performance level is important.

sorry to harp on but you seem to contradict yourself

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

eng_ch, Snowlife awards, are a UK based award, but they are not just artificial slope awards, in fact some of the levels cannot be done on artificial slopes, only snow. They are not very well known in UK and almost unheard of abroad.
You are right, there is a demand for a formal level system, along the lines of a golf handicap. This could create extra demand within resort ski schools, amongst people who wish for a formal recognition of the level of skiing that they have achieved.
This would hopefully put of people from doing BASI courses with no intention of teaching.

monster77

skimottaret, Why do you have this ficsation on speed? An instructor or Joe public skier does not need to be fast to be good. there are a lot of very quick skiers who cant teach and are definately not good skiers.

monster77

Spyderman,I will see you tomorrow evening to discuss bits of paper. Very Happy

After all it is free

rungsp,

monster77, not fixated on speed but if someone wishes an objective measure of ability a stopwatch is a good way to measure it, or, as spyderman suggests the snowlife award scheme sounds good too. I myself have never been through a set of gates, but my little one has to get her ESF badges.... I prefer to measure my smile at the end of the day Laughing

speed is relative, as speeds on a slalom course aren't that quick. but running a set of gates will soon show up how well you can turn (ski). i'm not talking about straight lining...

for sure they are many top skiers who dont or cant teach. thats my main point, that getting an instructors license isnt the best way to measure ability. i doubt many of the top freestyle skies you see in videos have bothered to get teaching certificates.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Sorry, but I completely fail to see why people shouldn't get qualifications for the sake of it. Very few people are totally happy with pure self-validation - for social animals they'd be strange beasts indeed. I don't see why you shouldn't choose whatever form of external validation floats your boat. Fortunately, skiing is about much more than achieving fast times and whether or not their intended purpose, a qualification will satisfy a need for some people because it should represent an objective, systematic and standardised assessment of attainment and progress. If the pros don't like it 'cos it cheapens their qualification, they can raise the bar for everyone.

Help!!

Warren Smith Verbier Gap Course.

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