 Poster: A snowHead
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There should be one recognized qualifitcation for ski teaching, and one ski guiding etc. For the EU...... but that won't happen,This is one reason why the EU will remain forever just a group of countries being milked by the eurocrats...each country has a different agenda an does not want to give local jobs away to any jonny foreigners. Including brits!! The UK is one the most EU friendly countries, all you need do is look at the shopping habits of a country...the french buy french food and mainly french cars, the Italians likewise...In the UK we buy anything from anywhere..
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 1-03-13 14:24; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Easy answer then. Get properly qualified for the region you want to host in, then get a job for an organisation that contracts with you according to the law of the Country you will be working in. |
Why, when I have a teaching qualification recognised globally, should I have to get a lesser qualification merely for hosting, which is intrinsically part of teaching anyway?
For what it's worth, I do have a Tour Leader certification, but as it's British Armed Forces it's even less likely to be acknowledged.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
That's not true. Again, we have opinion with zero fact or evidence behind it. Are you Mr. Daily Mail?
France, Spain and germany get fined as much or more than we do for breaking the rules. I worked on an EU Agri scheme and the EU treated all the member states the same in terms of compliance. It's probable that other countries play the game a bit better - a previous poster pointed out how our army of policy makers tends to boiler plate the interpretation of policy. |
I direct you to (ECJ case C-170/09). France's refusal to implement Financial legislation or the 20 years it took the ECJ to impose a fine on France for breach of Fishing quotas, which is still on-going but they paid a fine in 2005 20 Million purely so it would not get bigger the first case in relation to the breach was 1991.
emwmarine, I am not the daily mail nor am I British however I do deal in the legal industry specialising in European Financial law and I could show multiple cases of the big countries breaching budget constraints without sanction, France and Italy spring to mind.
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In the UK we buy anything from anywhere
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Probably more to do with the state of your manafacturing industy and even when you are buying British its owned abroad
There is ongoning discussions about 1 standard for instruction in Europe but you will never guess who is blocking it 
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| laundryman wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| Easy answer then. |
It's certainly an easy answer to give - facile one might say, since it ignores the question of whether or not the national law is in accordance with EU law (which may yet be judged in an appropriate court) and whether or not the law is in the interests of French or European society as a whole. |
Whether it's a benefit to French society is surely a matter for the French.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| achilles wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| Easy answer then. |
It's certainly an easy answer to give - facile one might say, since it ignores the question of whether or not the national law is in accordance with EU law (which may yet be judged in an appropriate court) and whether or not the law is in the interests of French or European society as a whole. |
Whether it's a benefit to French society is surely a matter for the French. |
Not since they joined the EU it isn't
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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achilles, hardly a reason to shut down debate on an internet forum which is open to all nationalities. As it happens, anyone who might think French society is united on this issue is wrong.
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| Quote: |
Not since they joined the EU it isn't
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Each EU directive is interprited diffrently through the community and some nations received exemptions for certain issues, like the Irish with their Faux neutrality.
The rules in France are the same for all EU nationals. I dont like their rules but they are fair in that sense.
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| thedrewski wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| Easy answer then. Get properly qualified for the region you want to host in, then get a job for an organisation that contracts with you according to the law of the Country you will be working in. |
Why, when I have a teaching qualification recognised globally, should I have to get a lesser qualification merely for hosting, which is intrinsically part of teaching anyway? |
There is no requirement for a EU country to accept a Canadian qualification as Canada is not within the EU.
If you check on the BASI web site it tells you where a Canadian level 2 sits within the BASI system and what exemptions you can expect. I do not know what exemptions the French will give you, if any.
What is your nationality? If you are not an EU national, or married to one etc, the French will not accept a BASI qualification for equivelance. You would have to do the French system.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
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That's not true. Again, we have opinion with zero fact or evidence behind it. Are you Mr. Daily Mail?
France, Spain and germany get fined as much or more than we do for breaking the rules. I worked on an EU Agri scheme and the EU treated all the member states the same in terms of compliance. It's probable that other countries play the game a bit better - a previous poster pointed out how our army of policy makers tends to boiler plate the interpretation of policy. |
I direct you to (ECJ case C-170/09). France's refusal to implement Financial legislation or the 20 years it took the ECJ to impose a fine on France for breach of Fishing quotas, which is still on-going but they paid a fine in 2005 20 Million purely so it would not get bigger the first case in relation to the breach was 1991.
emwmarine, I am not the daily mail nor am I British however I do deal in the legal industry specialising in European Financial law and I could show multiple cases of the big countries breaching budget constraints without sanction, France and Italy spring to mind.
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In the UK we buy anything from anywhere
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Probably more to do with the state of your manafacturing industy and even when you are buying British its owned abroad
There is ongoning discussions about 1 standard for instruction in Europe but you will never guess who is blocking it |
And I have done a lot of Government work and can give equal examples of pretty much every country fined. Have a look at http://courtofjustice.blogspot.co.uk
Just to show your original assertion that France is favoured by the Courts as un-evidenced, this from the times:
However, France has an almost unrivalled record of contempt for EU law. In the past five years it has been hauled before the European Court of Justice 112 times, more than any other country apart from Italy (114 times), and more than twice as often as Britain (50).
So it must be true.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 1-03-13 18:03; edited 1 time in total
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| thedrewski wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| Easy answer then. Get properly qualified for the region you want to host in, then get a job for an organisation that contracts with you according to the law of the Country you will be working in. |
Why, when I have a teaching qualification recognised globally, should I have to get a lesser qualification merely for hosting, which is intrinsically part of teaching anyway?
For what it's worth, I do have a Tour Leader certification, but as it's British Armed Forces it's even less likely to be acknowledged. |
Well it clearly isn't recognised globally or you wouldn't be having this problem..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Qualifications for each country interest eu !!!!!
Then it Should be the same for doctors then??
If you are to practice in any other country outside your own you must start your training from scratch in the country you are looking to practice in!!! UK have had doctors from Germany that could not speak English...with tragic results..... And all we are talking about is a person showing you where the best bar is!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just to show your original assertion that France is favoured by the Courts as un-evidenced, this from the times:
However, France has an almost unrivalled record of contempt for EU law. In the past five years it has been hauled before the European Court of Justice 112 times, more than any other country apart from Italy (114 times), and more than twice as often as Britain (50).
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Being hauled before the court counts for nothing if they don't implement the rulings or actually, insist on them putting directives into effect.
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Planetski has updated its report on the tour operators' meeting last Thursday, though there's nothing new on the strategy to be actioned ...
http://www.planetski.eu/news/4717
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| The tour operators present were Alpine Elements, Crystal Ski, Inghams, Le Ski, Mark Warner, Neilson, Ski Esprit, Ski Olympic, Ski Total, Skiworld, Thomson, VIP-SKI ... The Ski Club of Great Britain was not present ... |
It seems pretty certain that tour op ski hosting in France is now over for the season, so I guess the question now - commercially - is what impact this has for customer numbers next winter, and how many people switch to an alternative country for their package holidays.
Are any (smaller, presumably) tour operators currently flouting the ban?
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You know it makes sense.
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From that Planetski article:
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Here at PlanetSKI we have spoken to the European Confederation of Outdoor Employers that is based in Belgium.
Its secretary, Jean-Yves Lapeyrere... |
Well, there's a blast from the past, the guy who spent time in a police cell and a ton of money and time in court in order for his Ski Cocktail ski school to compete with the ESF.
http://www.ec-oe.eu/home/
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Are any (smaller, presumably) tour operators currently flouting the ban? |
...or any employing ESF instructors to host their 'guiding'.
This happened to Mrs A and I 15 years or so ago in SerreChe when this last kicked off. I can't remember the TO but somehow we ended up in one of their premier challets. We had an instructor almost to ourselves for the whole week. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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altis, one of our snowHeads was rounded up along with others by the gendarmes in Serre Chevalier that winter, but I believe as an instructor not as a ski host. They seem to be far friendlier to Brits these days.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 4-03-13 14:56; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Are any (smaller, presumably) tour operators currently flouting the ban? |
I was speaking to a chap last week in a large French resort that is still taking his guests social skiing but 'not getting paid for that part of his day'
and as friends of his family he showed us around for most of his day off, including to a restaurant where he didn't have to pay for lunch, courtesy of the cafe, or beer, courtesy of us, but he didn’t get paid...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[quote="WayneC
I was speaking to a chap last week in a large French resort that is still taking his guests social skiing but 'not getting paid for that part of his day'[/quote]
That reminds me of John Cleese and Michael Palin in the Argument Clinic.
"I could be arguing in my spare time"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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richjp,
10 minutes or the full half hour?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Why? WHY? WHY?
Why are people trying to get around this ruling?
It's now the law.
If a TO is caught you can bet it will be fined in the courts big time as an example, I just cannot see why they would risk that?
As an individual why? is your £80 really worth a visit to the French courts?
I may not agree with it but it's now the law.
If I was there I'll be buggered if I would try to circumvent it.
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Perhaps all chalet staff should have defined job plans with specified hours and defined duties. Then they could do what they like when off duty. Some may watch telly, sleep, go drinking, shag the guests, ski...
Dwarf Vader,
1. because it's daft
2. because the EU may disagree
3. because it's daft
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2. because the EU may disagre
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Unlikely the best chance of resolution is the French courts defining guiding.
Received an email today for accommodation booked in France for mid March and guiding is still on offer!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Then there's the European Arrest Warrant to track you down - imagine the ex-ski host post-season being dragged away from his Barclays Capital internship in order to face charges of illegal skiing!
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4. Because it's unenforeceable.
Even in Stalinist France no-one has any power to prevent me skiing/boarding with anyone I like, regardless of which company I work for or what my companions' holiday arrangements are.
Besides, Dwarf Vader, are you telling us you're the kind of sheep who will do whatever silly thing he's told to do becaiuse 'it's now the law'? When they make you wear a high vis hat with a duck on it every time you walk to work along a road, will you do so or will you just tell them it's ridiculous and ignore the whole thing? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lizzard, It's the first time I've ever been called a sheep.
Maybe my post was a bit straight laced, what I should have said was:
Why oh Why Oh why are you trying to circumvent this law in such poxy ways?
They are out to get you, do you not think the ESF/whoever are not just waiting salivating with the thought of catching a host on the hill?
Nothing I've read will work because who ever get caught doing what ever they are doing will be hosting in the eyes of the French and as I said earlier they would be. Calling a horseburger a beefburger still does not stop it been a burger.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Calling a horseburger a beefburger still does not stop it been a burger. |
Sorry, didn't quite follow that. Did you mean "Calling a horseburger a beefburger still does not stop it been a beanburger"?
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Why oh Why Oh why are you trying to circumvent this law in such poxy ways?
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Brcause the punter likes his ski hosting.
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do you not think the ESF/whoever are not just waiting salivating with the thought of catching a host on the hill?
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Possibly. But what are they going to do when they find that said 'host' is a rep/barman/driver/resort manager, has a contract to that effect and is merely skiing with a bunch of people who have invited him to do so?
This puts us right back in the position we were all in when I did my first season about 16 years ago, when all the small operators were hosting regardless and there was not a lot anyone could do about it.
Their best bet will be to haul the Inspectior du Travail in every time and prosecute for breaches of the code du travail (illegal hours and shift patterns, less than minimum wage, substandard accommodation, illegal deductions etc etc). They'll get pretty much everyone on that if they can be bothered with the interminable hassle.
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You know it makes sense.
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Dwarf Vader, It has been the law for many years. It is just that someone at last got prosecuted.
I have always followed the believe that if you travel to foreign lands then you abide by the laws of that country. It is not a matter of personal choice what laws you obey and what laws do not apply to you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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johnE, I think the difficulty that some have is the perceived conflict between EC law and the laws of individual member countries. But it has been ever thus, since the very earliest days of the Common Market, so it's no surprise.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I suspect a lot depended on interpretation too; so, until there was a test case, no one knew if what clearly covered off-piste guiding also included leading the way between hot chocolate stops. This case isn't over yet so the initial judgment may well be overturned on appeal - in France or at the European level.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| do you not think the ESF/whoever are not just waiting salivating with the thought of catching a host on the hill? |
The ESF, at the moment, are more concerned about losing business to other ski schools.
I would not like to be the Director of ESF Meribel if they loose a significant amount of their work, from Brit tour operators, to other ski schools. He will not be a Director for long as he will be quickly voted out of office.
The next 'workshop' between the ESF and all TO's is at the end of March and should be very entertaining.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| laundryman wrote: |
| I suspect a lot depended on interpretation too; so, until there was a test case, no one knew if what clearly covered off-piste guiding also included leading the way between hot chocolate stops. This case isn't over yet so the initial judgment may well be overturned on appeal - in France or at the European level. |
There was a test case, ten years ago, appealed up to Chambery court against Ski Olympic. The law is clearly designed to cover on piste leading, there is no ambiguity, the TOs knew this back then.
| lizzard wrote: |
| Brcause the punter likes his ski hosting. |
Some punters like ganga and hoes but no TO is filling that market gap at the moment and it would be illegal in France to do so. TOs offered guiding because for many it was free to do, they had their transport rep, apres rep, ski pack rep and saw that he wasn't working 144 hours a week so added guiding as another thing to keep him busy.
| Stewart Woodward wrote: |
| I would not like to be the Director of ESF Meribel if they loose a significant amount of their work, from Brit tour operators, to other ski schools. |
That will only happen if the other ski schools can offer the capacity and are cheaper. TOs are the bottom feeders of the ski holiday industry, trying to squeeze a bit of margin here and there, duckin' and divin' dodgin' and a weavin'. They are like the bankers of the tourist industry.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Some punters like ganga and hoes
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They're all in private chalets in Courchevel 1850 and highly unlikely to book with TOs. More coke and champagne than ganga though, in my experience.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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That will only happen if the other ski schools can offer the capacity and are cheaper.
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I don't think TOs will find many resorts where there are ski schools cheaper than ESF. I suspect that they'll huff and puff and carry on much as they were, faute de mieux.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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Some punters like ganga and hoes
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They're all in private chalets in Courchevel 1850 |
and do you remember when the Russkies brought their own hookers in rather than using the local Pute de Ski Francais? (PSF). They all ended up being arrested by the Lyon police. Of course then Putin got involved and threatened to nuke Courchevel if they wern't released immediately.
That's the TOs problem, no nukes.
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davidof, I bet French hookers undergo a speed test.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| The next 'workshop' between the ESF and all TO's is at the end of March and should be very entertaining. |
Hey Stewart, It would be good if you could post any gossip or news on that meeting should it actually take place 
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| laundryman wrote: |
| davidof, I bet French hookers undergo a speed test. |
at least a Test Tech-nique.
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FAQ
