 Poster: A snowHead
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| sugardaddy wrote: |
| ........there are always ESF groups that are exactly "guided tours" with lift line privileges on top.... it was always very clear that the instructor was there to show us around and be entertaining |
Unfortunately, that's my experience of the archetypal 'follow me' ESF instructor - a good way to learn the resort but absolutely no tuition offered.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| dsoutar wrote: |
I still find it ludicrous that the ESF who, despite what they have said, have put a lot of energy into this case yet are quite happy to plonk pre-school kids on a chair with strangers to look after them (and I'm refering only to their physical safety on the lift rather than anything more unsavoury). If they are going to show some responsibility in terms of people's safety then it there should be at least 1 instructor per 3 kids on a chair; especially given what happened recently in Claviere. But then that would hurt their business model and we wouldn't want that, would we.
I'd like to hope that there would never be a repeat incident in a French resort but if there ever is then the ESF will have no defence.
Make no mistake. This is nothing to do with safety and everything to do with money and vested interests. |
Again, you are singling out ESF. All the instruction companies that give littluns lessons follow the same practice of plonking a kid next to an adult on the chair lift. It is really the chair lift companies who proscribe this by having a line for ski schools that filter into the main queue.
You can refuse to have the kid next to you. Sometimes it terrifies me when they move around looking behind at their mates and it looks like it would be very easy to fall out of the chair.
I think the authorities are likely to clamp down on this given the recent incidents throughout Europe this year. Who would be liable in an accident would be interesting given th eFrench legal system. I imagine the lift company would get most of the liability, followed by the ski school, followed by the person sitting next to the kid - having accepted responsibility for them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
Hypothetical - if a TO ski host is part of a group, but not leading it, who is getting arrested, the host, the person at the front (an unpaid guest sharing with other unpaid guests in the chalet who happens to be the fastest and probably most experienced skiier in the group) or are they planning to listen to every conversation where the host tells the nominated "guide" which way to go when they get to the top of the lift they are sharing?
Host is at the back of the group, playing sweeper because they have (on paper) the most pressing duty of care in the event of an incident, compared to the random guest who is at the front and is merely following instructions and stopping at every junction on the way down the mountain to make sure everyone goes the right way.
That's how I'd do it, and if the TO merely happened to offer a significant discount to one person booking on to a holiday, that would be their decision to make. |
A nice idea but I am not sure it would work. The host may not be at the front, but I would argue that he/she was still "leading" in the sense that the host is giving all the direction and making all the decisions.
As an example mountain guides will sometimes send their clients first down what they consider is a safe slope, so that the clients can get the best snow and learn how to pick their own line, but there is no question that the guide is still in charge and still has the responsibility.
You do not always have to lead from the front.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 27-02-13 21:07; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Ricay, yes, wot I woz saying but you seem to have attributed words to me that aren't mine (the "quasi" club stuff) |
Yes Bode. Humble apologies for attributing all of that to you....sorry... I haven't got the hang of copying pasting two quotes from 2 different sources.....sorry again...me bad 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Regarding French practices on chairlifts.
There are French national regulation to do with this. Anyone under 1.25m high cannot go up alone and must go up with an adult who is capable of following lift company instructions in the case of an emergency. There have been 2 recent falls from chairlifts with children being badly injured. None involved ski school kids but everyone is very aware of the issues. Adults often back off at the last minute leaving children on their own and lifts don't run backwards, This is very common, besides having agreed by virtue of having bought the lift pass (OK it's small print) to obey the commands of the lift operating staff. You cannot know how frustrated the Instructors and lift staff feel about this, it dives us all to distraction, all those of us who work on the hill can do, is do our best.
Internally the ESF has issued a bulletin ( 2 weeks ago) reminding everyone what safe practice is and what the legal requirements are. The only time most instructors really lose their rag is where safety is concerned and most (skiing related) conversations in bars tends to be about safety issues telling the days horror stories to each other just to let off steam. That's why more and more instructors are wearing lids - we worry for our safety in terms of collisions.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
You can refuse to have the kid next to you. Sometimes it terrifies me when they move around looking behind at their mates and it looks like it would be very easy to fall out of the chair.
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I always understood it was more to keep them warm and calm if the lift stopped; sure everyone has heard the story/myth of some kids freezing to death on a stalled lift in a blizzard.
That said falling is also a risk of course, a French kiddie fell from a chairlift only a week or two ago - the instructor next to him held on long enough for some passing skiers to gather below and catch him. Lucky escape really. They have a crazy magnetic bib system in Courchevel but in Meribel they just added extra bars to go between people's legs and prevent kids slipping through.
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| Ricay wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Ricay, yes, wot I woz saying but you seem to have attributed words to me that aren't mine (the "quasi" club stuff) |
Yes Bode. Humble apologies for attributing all of that to you....sorry... I haven't got the hang of copying pasting two quotes from 2 different sources.....sorry again...me bad |
I had forgotten already but appreciate the grovelling.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I avoid having the kids on the lift with me by saying "sorry, I am not allowed to be near children" - they don't ever continue the discussion.
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| Quote: |
That said falling is also a risk of course, a French kiddie fell from a chairlift only a week or two ago
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a British one did too
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
| I avoid having the kids on the lift with me by saying "sorry, I am not allowed to be near children" - they don't ever continue the discussion. |
It helps to have a French translation of the court order.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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prometheus, Shimmy Alcott, Mistress Panda, The French are a European Court of Human Rights to themselves.
Sadly that ruins a very lovely country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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so they should be sued, what makes a load of greedy brit jerks think that they can turn up on French soil (Snow) and take away french jobs, what gives them the right.... some people spend fortunes becomming qualified guides/instructors just for these sanctimonious dicks to milk an already struggling market. These same people moan at Poles and eastern europeans taking up british jobs at home, well guess what... they are worse, nothing more than parasites that should leave skiing alone.
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You know it makes sense.
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If children annoy me on the chairlift, I push them off
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| keithski wrote: |
| what makes a load of greedy brit jerks think that they can turn up on French soil (Snow) and take away french jobs, what gives them the right.... |
In case you've forgotten, you'll find being a member of the EU gives them the right. Unfortunately this fact seems to get ignored / forgotten occasionally
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dsoutar wrote: |
| keithski wrote: |
| what makes a load of greedy brit jerks think that they can turn up on French soil (Snow) and take away french jobs, what gives them the right.... |
In case you've forgotten, you'll find being a member of the EU gives them the right. Unfortunately this fact seems to get ignored / forgotten occasionally |
And if you want to get picky, the job of ski host (part time skier part time rep/cook/cleaner) doesn't exist in France anyway so no jobs to take away.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Fattes13, that's not strictly true. Take EU directives for example, the committee issues a rule which is then interpreted by each country. End result might be three sides of A4 in the UK but only three lines of text in Spain. It's called gold-plating and UK civil servants are without doubt world leaders!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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albinomountainbadger, Sorry I may not have been clear the last sentence refers to French legislation and requirements for ski instruction in French is the same for everyone regardless of your nationality or origin.
altis, It does, the French have laid out the criteria for providing that service in their country which is the same for everyone so it is a level playing field as albinomountainbadger, pointed out EU directives are applied differently in every nation.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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But if I can legally sell goods in this country then they are legal throughout the EU.
So, if I'm qualified to sell a "ski guiding service" here then why not in France too?
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| Quote: |
| Qualifications are recognised if the migrant’s level of professional qualification is at least equivalent to the level immediately below that required in the host country. Recognition must also be granted to migrants whose profession is not regulated in the country of origin but who have worked full-time in that profession for two years. |
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/top_layer/services/index_en.htm
^ In the European Commission's own words.
It's not about a host country applying its own regulations concerning qualifications evenly; it's about respecting other countries' regulations - including a lack of them.
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altis, under the derogation France was granted in 2000 (on your link somewhere), they successfully claimed that it was a "safety" issue, which is one of the very few grounds on which a derogation can be granted.
OTOH I'd also have thought the provisions on temporary mobility applied:
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qualifications/directive_in_practice/temporary_mobility/index_en.htm
| Quote: |
| the host country may check the professional qualifications before the services are first provided, on condition that it complies with the principle of proportionality. |
(my bold)
On that basis, it is clear that ski hosts are working on a temporary basis (short term contract), and under the principle of proportionality, it is surely not reasonable to require ISTD level for that activity.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Believe me the derogation applies, Hosting / guiding is a professional skiing activity. In other words people pay for it. A ski season isn't looked at as temporary, and the French skiing act applies anyway. There is now a memorandum of understanding within most European Union Skiing Nations that states what qualifications apply so that the countries own licenses can be used with the green MOU stamp on, in the UK's case that is ISTD. Ski guiding for money without the appropriate qualification doesn't have a leg to stand on.
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| Saint wrote: |
| Believe me the derogation applies, Hosting / guiding is a professional skiing activity. In other words people pay for it. A ski season isn't looked at as temporary, and the French skiing act applies anyway. There is now a memorandum of understanding within most European Union Skiing Nations that states what qualifications apply so that the countries own licenses can be used with the green MOU stamp on, in the UK's case that is ISTD. Ski guiding for money without the appropriate qualification doesn't have a leg to stand on. |
That's easy then. The TO's just pay for their staff to undergo the right training and then pay them above the French minimum wage and Bob's your Uncle. Hmm.... I can see this happening......
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As fluke would have it, myself and the 2 other ski hosts for our resort were all CSIA level 2 qualified instructors.
Why then were we equally banned from hosting? Either they're willing to accept other qualifications or they're not. Evidence thus far is; they're not.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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thedrewski, don't you need Level 4 for an ISTD?
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| thedrewski wrote: |
| Why then were we equally banned from hosting? |
Have you personally receieved some form of ban? I thought it was the tour operator, Le Ski, who were taken to court?
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You know it makes sense.
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stewart woodward, so are you saying that everyone other than Le Ski can carry on?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think some of you missed the point.
European qualifications and equal merit between them:
Please, this is not meant in the wrong way, but in European terms Level 2 Canadian is not regarded as the same as a level 3 BASI, and Canada is not part of Europe, AND Level 4 Canadian does not even have top ISIA ranking, (only ISIA stamp not full card). So I am sorry level 2 Canadian is not a recognised qualification in Europe.
The trouble is, since France is part of Europe and has enough squabbles with ISIA (International Association of Ski Instructors) on the level of competence, no one who has not got full French equivalence (European qualification, MOU etc.) ( i.e. BASI ISTD, full Italian etc) will be recognised at all.
Anyway the ban was already in place, French act of Parliament and the European Derogation.
The question is will this be accepted at the European (not French) courts?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
The question is will this be accepted at the European (not French) courts?
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Yes as France is a big player in the EU and the court of justice is a farce when it comes to judgments against Germany and France!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rogg wrote: |
| stewart woodward, so are you saying that everyone other than Le Ski can carry on? |
No.
I was questioning thedrewski as to weather he/her had receieved a personal ban.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| Quote: |
The question is will this be accepted at the European (not French) courts?
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Yes as France is a big player in the EU and the court of justice is a farce when it comes to judgments against Germany and France! |
Even if France lose at EU level they will probably just ignore the decision (see anti-piracy laws, Roma expulsions, fishing laws, etc etc etc)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Many of the arguements made seem to be confusing a genuine 'group of friends' with 'providing a commercial service'
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Sadly the ESF and French law enforcment are guilty of the above on two seperate occasions with me. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Saint wrote: |
| .... no one who has not got full French equivalence (European qualification, MOU etc.) ( i.e. BASI ISTD, full Italian etc) will be recognised at all.... |
I can't see why I, as a punter, should have a problem with that.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Even if France lose at EU level they will probably just ignore the decision (see anti-piracy laws, Roma expulsions, fishing laws, etc etc etc)
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Exactly my point
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| Saint wrote: |
I think some of you missed the point.
European qualifications and equal merit between them:
Please, this is not meant in the wrong way, but in European terms Level 2 Canadian is not regarded as the same as a level 3 BASI, and Canada is not part of Europe, AND Level 4 Canadian does not even have top ISIA ranking, (only ISIA stamp not full card). So I am sorry level 2 Canadian is not a recognised qualification in Europe.
The trouble is, since France is part of Europe and has enough squabbles with ISIA (International Association of Ski Instructors) on the level of competence, no one who has not got full French equivalence (European qualification, MOU etc.) ( i.e. BASI ISTD, full Italian etc) will be recognised at all.
Anyway the ban was already in place, French act of Parliament and the European Derogation.
The question is will this be accepted at the European (not French) courts? |
But it has been accepted by companies to teach in Europe for decades [albeit not France]. I've spent numerous weeks teaching in Italy and Andorra - and now indoors at Xscape in the UK - with this qualification and it's also accepted worldwide, New Zealand, Australia, US, Japan would all acknowledge it. What's special about Europe?
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| thedrewski wrote: |
| Why then were we equally banned from hosting? |
Have you personally receieved some form of ban? I thought it was the tour operator, Le Ski, who were taken to court? |
The company I was working for [not Le Ski] and indeed all companies using hosts have stopped their services in France. We have been banned from doing our jobs.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| Quote: |
The question is will this be accepted at the European (not French) courts?
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Yes as France is a big player in the EU and the court of justice is a farce when it comes to judgments against Germany and France! |
That's not true. Again, we have opinion with zero fact or evidence behind it. Are you Mr. Daily Mail?
France, Spain and germany get fined as much or more than we do for breaking the rules. I worked on an EU Agri scheme and the EU treated all the member states the same in terms of compliance. It's probable that other countries play the game a bit better - a previous poster pointed out how our army of policy makers tends to boiler plate the interpretation of policy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| thedrewski wrote: |
| Saint wrote: |
I think some of you missed the point.
European qualifications and equal merit between them:
Please, this is not meant in the wrong way, but in European terms Level 2 Canadian is not regarded as the same as a level 3 BASI, and Canada is not part of Europe, AND Level 4 Canadian does not even have top ISIA ranking, (only ISIA stamp not full card). So I am sorry level 2 Canadian is not a recognised qualification in Europe.
The trouble is, since France is part of Europe and has enough squabbles with ISIA (International Association of Ski Instructors) on the level of competence, no one who has not got full French equivalence (European qualification, MOU etc.) ( i.e. BASI ISTD, full Italian etc) will be recognised at all.
Anyway the ban was already in place, French act of Parliament and the European Derogation.
The question is will this be accepted at the European (not French) courts? |
But it has been accepted by companies to teach in Europe for decades [albeit not France]. I've spent numerous weeks teaching in Italy and Andorra - and now indoors at Xscape in the UK - with this qualification and it's also accepted worldwide, New Zealand, Australia, US, Japan would all acknowledge it. What's special about Europe?
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| thedrewski wrote: |
| Why then were we equally banned from hosting? |
Have you personally receieved some form of ban? I thought it was the tour operator, Le Ski, who were taken to court? |
The company I was working for [not Le Ski] and indeed all companies using hosts have stopped their services in France. We have been banned from doing our jobs. |
Easy answer then. Get properly qualified for the region you want to host in, then get a job for an organisation that contracts with you according to the law of the Country you will be working in.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Easy answer then. |
It's certainly an easy answer to give - facile one might say, since it ignores the question of whether or not the national law is in accordance with EU law (which may yet be judged in an appropriate court) and whether or not the law is in the interests of French or European society as a whole.
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FAQ
