 Poster: A snowHead
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VolklAttivaS5, There is an established protocol Coaches should follow (assuming they hold the appropriate qualification) which mitigates the situation you describe.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| VolklAttivaS5, There is an established protocol Coaches should follow (assuming they hold the appropriate qualification) which mitigates the situation you describe. |
Ah right, that's good then. Do all coaches doing it in France need to have that IVSI qualification then or not?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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VolklAttivaS5, I've no idea.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| stewart woodward, I've asked, it's been passed on to Roy Henderson (who I think developed qualifications). WIll get back to you asap. |
any answer?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stewart woodward, not yet.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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On the subject of the second discipline for ISIA / ISTD, my understanding was that once signed off they can teach that second discipline on the hill. The idea being to broaden the commercial opportunities for Instructors\ski schools.
Is this correct, and does anyone know how it applies to those who were signed off via the "morning with a trainer" arrangement before the current Level 1 'pass' requirement ?
On a similar theme, does it also follow that if you hold a L2 in one discipline and an L1 in another, you can teach the L1 discipline on the hill ?
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david@mediacopy, Also fairly shocking in that a unsuspecting punter can end up being taught snowboarding by someone who's bodged through a fridge course and never picked up a snowboard since.
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fatbob, I have a feeling it's worse in some of the other systems.
On the subject of Instructor quality here's an cut and paste from an email from a friend who had a couple of lessons in the UK before heading out to the Alps in response to me asking how she got on:
"Did not have very nice instructor at 1st - he kept shouting at me and my mate a lot - quite funny looking back on it as we kept falling over lots and the more we fell the more he shouted and got pissed at us.......(its a funny story) I was beginning to think maybe skiing was not for me but gave it another go with another instructor - Xxxxxx who was fantastic."
I'm glad she found a decent one....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| david@mediacopy, Also fairly shocking in that a unsuspecting punter can end up being taught snowboarding by someone who's bodged through a fridge course and never picked up a snowboard since. |
Thinking about it, it's not a problem. Mostly they do Telemark 
But seriously it's only a problem, if as you say, they are not "into" their 2nd Discipline. An Instructor with a good understanding can draw on his ski background, and the two disciplines are not exactly night and day. My skiing knowledge certainly helps me in my boarding. The important thing is to recognise when you can't help someone and hand them on to someone who can.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stewart woodward,
Here's the response from Roy:
"To be honest with you I have not done a vast amount of research outside the UK as to where our MS awards can be used.
I would hazard a guess that they would be accepted in the USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Argentina, and the UK. The statement that accompanies the remit of the award states they must be used "consistent with the country's laws they are working in "."
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
Wayne, I must admit even with my limited amount of knowledge on the subject I was always under the impression that 'coaching' was for athletes/racers as you and stewart woodward have said, and any 'general punters' wanting to improve their ski technique were taught not coached  what is the difference?
Besides, how do you try and convince a person (even in English, let alone a foreign language) that may well be skeptical about what you are trying to say to start with, as well as possibly being a bit miffed since they believe you are teaching on their turf illegally, that you are actually 'coaching' your group not 'instructing' them? Seems like a bit of a tall order to me and I wouldn't like to be in that situation. |
I would have thought the best people to answer this question on snowHeads would be skimottaret & rob@rar as at least they can speak from experience.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Another point of view could be that, apart from the potential to be misunderstood as to whether your intentions in the foreign country are to coach or to teach, I guess there is also the danger of upsetting the apple-cart as a result of being questioned or seen, (the local going away thinking 'bloody Brits!' or such like) so that then life is made more difficult for those working in the same area who do have the genuine right to be there, and that wouldn't be very good IMO For example, if someone was questioned about, or seen 'coaching' in a particular French resort, word could get around (rightly or wrongly) that rules were being bent to suit or whatever and then British instructors working in the area with adequate certification might get a hard time as a result of other people's actions?
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The IVSI license has a set of rules with it to avoid exactly this situation. Basically, 1) Tell lift company/ski school you are coming 2) Arrive with club 3) Don't teach beginners and 4) Don't solicit for business in resort.
I've run camps with my club in Tignes for many years following this, no problems.
As far as the 2nd Discipline discussion goes... just look at the license of the instructor.. just because they are an ISIA for alpine doesn't mean they will be anything more than L1 for tele/snowboard. I did mine before the L1 requirement came on. I am NOT licensed to teach tele.... which is handy because I don't want too 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
The most interesting development lately is the Mountain Safety module being recognised as a stand alone qualification. |
From BASI web site
'The BASI Mountain Safety awards are stand alone qualifications allowing the holder to work within the laws of the country they are in and the remit of the particular award they hold.
A Level 2 Instructor can hold all the Mountain Safety awards without proceeding through the Level 3 ISIA and Level 4 ISTD Qualifications.
It is up to the individual to keep their awards current and ensure they are working within the remit and obeying best practice at all times'.
But where can you use your 'stand alone' qualification?
Not in France. From what i here the rules in Switzerland are even more draconian.
Austria? Italy? Canada? |
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 11 1:48 Post subject:
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stewart woodward,
Here's the response from Roy:
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"To be honest with you I have not done a vast amount of research outside the UK as to where our MS awards can be used.
I would hazard a guess that they would be accepted in the USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Argentina, and the UK. The statement that accompanies the remit of the award states they must be used "consistent with the country's laws they are working in ". |
So basically the stand alone qualification is not worth a lot!
I do not believe you actually need a qualification to work in the UK. A ski school may ask for a qualification but in reality anyone can advertise their services and obtain work , just like a builder.
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Poster: A snowHead
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"consistent with the country's laws they are working in "
seems to be the standard get out clause. Would it really be that hard for BASI to at least make an effort to determine the specific requirements for at least a few popular places to work, I realise there are numerous local cantons/ juristictions but something would be better than nothing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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beanie1, are you still waiting for a response to my specific question? I have reframed it thus
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| Does BASI provide professional liability cover for holders of BASI Alpine Instructor L2, Alpine Development Coach L1 or ADC L2 qualifications, to instruct groups of non-beginners, with whom they have travelled and who are members of a UK club, in Austria/France/Italy/Switzerland? |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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slikedges, yes have chased up.
skimottaret,
Will pass on your comments.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ski, what sort of club do you have, is it a race club?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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VolklAttivaS5, are you thinking of getting top qualifications, setting up a club etc? Your questions seem exceptionally probing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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VolklAttivaS5, Check out the SnowSport England web site, it's all there.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
skimottaret,
Will pass on your comments. |
Please don't it was just a general Internet rant. If I have a specific question that i would like an "official" answer on I will let you know....
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| VolklAttivaS5, Check out the SnowSport England web site, it's all there. |
Thanks, but it's ok, I just wondered what sort of club ski had that's all.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| VolklAttivaS5, are you thinking of getting top qualifications, setting up a club etc? Your questions seem exceptionally probing. |
No, I have absolutely no intention of doing so, just curious.
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VolklAttivaS5, Yes is a ski racing club, but no I don't restrict coaching activities just to the race lane. IVSI is not restricted to racing, rather to club usage.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ski, ok, thanks for the reply.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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juliad, there is some info on the website, eg
https://www.basi.org.uk/content/employment-france.aspx
While this lacks some detail, due to the frequent changes in the work requirements of different countries, it is broadly a good guide. Members seeking more detailed information are welcome to contact the BASI office.
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slikedges,
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Does BASI provide professional liability cover for holders of BASI Alpine Instructor L2, Alpine Development Coach L1 or ADC L2 qualifications, to instruct groups of non-beginners, with whom they have travelled and who are members of a UK club, in Austria/France/Italy/Switzerland?
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This has been referred to the insurers, however in the interim I have the following response:
While insurance and different international regulations are a complex and often moving area, in simple terms, a BASI Members’ liability insurance covers them working legally within the capacity of their qualification. We advise that all clubs or organisations must register locally and declare the instructors or coaches that they are using and follow all local regulations for the country and region that they are working in or visiting.
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1,
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We advise that all clubs or organisations must register locally and declare the instructors or coaches that they are using and follow all local regulations for the country and region that they are working in or visiting.
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And very sound advice this is too. Irrespective of the law - and the French in particular have always sailed close to the wind in the context of EC law on professional recognition, not just in snowsports - common sense dictates that an instructor should square his/her position with the local people, to make life tolerable. Therefore it is only of limited benefit to ask on here, or of BASI, or SSE, or of whomever, what the 'macro' legal position is: in practical terms, what is tolerated in the locality in question is at least as important, if not more so. I have some involvement with one ski club in particular and feel confident that the instructors would not be so silly as to shoot themselves in the foot by working in defiance of local practice.
That is not to say that BASI, or any other professional organisation, should cave in to wholesale defiance of international law by the professional organisation of another nation or nations.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hurtle, It's only really relevant if the legalities are actually called into question in respect of an incident or claim. Then the legalities of what constitutes a 'Club', 'Coaching as against Instruction' etc. get called into question. Insurance companies historically will try anything to wriggle out of not settling a claim.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Spyderman, of course any insurance terms have to be complied with, to the letter, and yes, insurance claims are not the easiest thing in the world to deal with. Again, it is incumbent on the insured to make sure that his insurance policy protects him - if not, more fool him. This forum is full of people who generalize about insurance policies - insurance law (or practice) just isn't susceptible to generalisations. I'm not clear what new point you are making.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, I foresee a number of potential problems.
BASI requires ISTD level qualification for a ski instructor to operate autonomously in resort.
A number of British ski schools, for example New Gen & BASS are set up and run by BASI ISTD. They can teach whatever standard from beginner up, plus take on business in resort.
Various ISTD instructors and companies run courses booked in UK, run in the Alps, Snoworks, Alpine Coaching, Inspired to Ski, etc. come to mind.
They have invested considerable time, effort and expense to gain their qualifications to be able to operate as they do.
I can see them taking exception to commercial companies who are 'interpreting' the rules of IVSI status in operating under the auspices of a 'Club' status. just because they've charged an extra nominal fee to join the club, when clearly it's a commercial business offering courses, so as thy can offer the same type of course without having to have ISTD status. Why did they bother when they could have done it with a L3 ISIA and employ L2's. I'd be screaming from the rooftops.
IVSI was set up for the likes of Hemel Race Club or Impulse Racing for example, so that race clubs could train in the Alps using their own coaches, it wasn't for commercial companies to teach intermediates and call it a ski club.
It's been mentioned by others that this type of arrangement is widespread. By bending the rules in this way, I can see the privileges being removed from the genuine clubs.
I'm surprised that SSE haven't done something about the abuse of the IVSI licence and that BASI hasn't put pressure on them to clean up, as it's clearly affecting their ISTD member's businesses.
In sure the French authorities would act if they knew the truth about what was happening.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spyderman, wow, your post seems to imply that you have mastered the knowledge of how anybody can and does run whatever kind of organisation in whatever country or region, and of all the rules under which they can operate, both in this country and abroad. That is quite some encyclopaedic knowledge, including of some quite arcane legal definitions (of the word 'club' to name but one.)
If I were a professional (of any sort) who wanted to work abroad - well I have been, in fact - I would make sure I knew and abided by the rules of my own professional organisation(s), also the law and practice of both the country and the region I was working in and I would also take care to get my activity covered by insurance, whether provided by my professional organisation alone, or if necessary supplemented further. If I don't do these things and don't obtain consents (here and abroad) where such consents are necessary, I am, of course, an idiot. But if, having done them, I upset potential competitors or onlookers with some kind of moral axe to grind, none of whom will have had sight of my documentation - well, tough, frankly - that's what running a business is all about.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, I do have a pretty good knowledge, having joined SSE in 1991, having many friends that hold IVSI licences. I'm also familiar with the SSS, CSIA & BASI systems being a member of those associations also.
ski, has kindly posted a link to the SSE IVSI website. I'm not legally qualified, but to me it clearly states the reasons and limits of the IVSI licence and that in my interpretation is not for the use of commercial companies to run instructional courses, it's for coaches to train their performers.
Why do we bother with the ISTD qualification, when anyone with a L3 who has little or no chance of getting an ISTD and even less chance of passing a Eurotest, can just sign themselves up to SSE, get an IVSI, form a 'Club' and run courses in the Alps, using L2 instructors to also deliver course content.
BASS spent many years in French & European courts to gain the right to work in France and that was with fully qualified ISTD instructors.
What's being done is not right, it's taking business away from the guys that have done it properly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman,
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I'm not legally qualified, but to me it clearly states the reasons and limits of the IVSI licence and that in my interpretation is not for the use of commercial companies to run instructional courses, it's for coaches to train their performers.
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I am legally qualified, as you know, and am not at all sure I agree with you, even on the face of it - and the face of that website is, of course, not the only relevant place to be looking.
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What's being done is not right, it's taking business away from the guys that have done it properly.
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The concern of me and my partners, when running a business that operated partly in France, was to make sure (to the best of our ability) that we were not falling foul of any regulations here or abroad, and that included squaring all we needed to square with our professional organisation, The Law Society. The thought that other members of The Law Society, including those who were not even working in France, might be running around worrying themselves as to whether we had got all our paperwork right, and were or were not taking potential business away from other solicitors, is truly laughable.
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Hurtle, Thank you for your views outlining the legal standpoint.
Just think of all of those 000's of pounds and years of effort the likes of Phil Smith, Sally Chapman, to name but a few could have saved by not bothering to gain ISTD status in order to run their courses. All they had to do was get an IVSI, charge their customers another £7 a year and call themselves a club.
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Spyderman, why should I be concerned as to how these people or any other instructors/groups of instructors run their operations? And indeed why should any of them be concerned as to what you or I think? The bottom line is that it's none of our business.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
BASS spent many years in French & European courts to gain the right to work in France and that was with fully qualified ISTD instructors.
What's being done is not right, it's taking business away from the guys that have done it properly. |
Please correct me if i am wrong but i believe that some Brit ski schools/companies used to operate under the 'club' system. It will be rather ironic if these ski schools/companies now start complaining about others doing what they used to do.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| BASS spent many years in French & European courts to gain the right to work in France and that was with fully qualified ISTD instructors. |
Have they really spent years in the European courts? The view of most Trainers I know is that the French have done everything possible to keep this away from either the French or European courts (particularly the latter) because they suspect they'll lose.
Individual BASI members have been through the French courts with BASI providing "discrete" support in the background.
But BASI have never been front and centre in the courts.
The criticism of BASI has tended to be that they're afraid of rocking the boat.
Take the training centre initiative that was supposed to happen this year. BASI's proposed approach was, again, to get someone in France to set up a training centre; be challenged; go to court and then for BASI to provide background support.
| Spyderman wrote: |
Why do we bother with the ISTD qualification, when anyone with a L3 who has little or no chance of getting an ISTD and even less chance of passing a Eurotest, can just sign themselves up to SSE, get an IVSI, form a 'Club' and run courses in the Alps, using L2 instructors to also deliver course content.
What's being done is not right, it's taking business away from the guys that have done it properly. |
Prove that last statement.
Most British ski schools are crying out for extra instructors. They are resource-constrained. As a L2 I can work for ESF, but not for BASS in Morzine. I take as much work away from an instructor if I work for ESF than if I were to work for BASS, or take the group out myself.
All the current rules do is dictate for whom I can work and for how long. Not whether I can work.
The hypocrisy of the whole system is that the French turn a blind eye when it suits them and if they like someone. So, for example, the British Ski Academy in Les Houches is staffed by ex-racers - few of whom have equivalence. The French turn a blind eye because they're racers. The academy doesn't even meet the requirement of travelling out with its clients.
(I've nothing against the academy - I just use it as an example.)
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FAQ
