 Poster: A snowHead
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^ and in the UK it sure doesn't end at the Watford gap 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wayne, You're right - plenty of places to work, and AFAICS the wages in France are no better than anywhere else. Maybe they were 'back in the day', but not now. My friend who worked in Park City earned about the same as me before tips and the tips are much better in the states!
Mike Pow, The french are great and so is living in France! So much more relaxed than the UK, very little H & S rubbish by comparison and not even half the numbers of cameras!! 
It's not a local hot shot setting the time. The Eurotest is just that, and most of the openers are retired WC or EC racers. They have to be admitted by their country and race against each other every year (as already described) to set a 'base time'. their times for opening are then calculated to 0 using their handicap against the base ... you then have to ski the % required to pass. This is timed, but it's not a 'race' - there are no prizes for being the fastest or whatever. It's purely a question of getting the % time so it's quite different. this is the same everywhere though, so the only diff with the UK is that many of the aspiring and junior ski teachers did not have a racing background and thus have to learn from the start. TBH it's also true (ducks) that most british holiday skiers are not very good, so people don't have a very high bar to aim at to start with.
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easiski, isn't the speed test a bit of a lottery? A mate of mine did it quite a few times and recall him saying that on some occasions noone got the time on others quite a few did. The day he got it plenty got the time. You've obviously got to be good through the gates but snow conditions and whether the starter has a good day ie luck seem to play a pretty big role.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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BobinCH, It can be, but how can you make it less like that? The conditions are what they are, and I can't think of many ISTDs who would want to do it on a bar-injected piste! However the other parts are a lottery because it's someone's opinion of your performance too. Generally it's easier in Jan I would think when the snow may be less variable, however supposing it snow 50cms the night before??
jjc, It's considered spam to make your first post an advert. We're not allowed to advertise our professional wares on snowheads, but some insight and advice to people on this thread would be very helpful. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Apologies for misunderstanding the rules, JJC consists of Jas Bruce, James Bennett and myself Craig Robinson and we are currently employed by BASI as Euro Test Openers. We are happy to answer any questions regarding the Euro Test  Tests tend to be pretty similar, and the amount of candidates passing is generally based on standard. The tests in which more candidates pass at are usually the ones the French have their ski instructor collages attending, these candidates specifically train to be instructors and therefor have had a lot of quality training. The more you train the luckier you get!
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jjc, welcome to snowheads  Heard Jas was at Hemel Hempstead and im wondering if he is london based over the summer? or was it a one off for the course he ran.
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jjc, what I keep hearing on this forum is people complaining that it's impossible to pass the ET and almost impossible to pass the TT. Clearly this is not true.
In your opinion, if someone is coming up to ISIA level, how much training would a trainee require (average, obviously) to get to TT and then ET level? Previously on this forum, a part time instructor did not wish to do slalom training on the plastic in preparation for the TT, even though he was moaning about the difficulty of it.
As I work in France I see lots of young instructors working their way through it, and most do get to the level.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, I'd describe myself as "coming up to ISIA" level (well, I'm hoping to prove I'm at that level as soon as I get back on snow!) - thanks for asking that question, interested to find out the answer.
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It is defiantly not impossible to pass the ET and TT, but yes it does require a lot of training. Unfortunately as openers we see a large percentage of candidates arriving at tests completely unprepared and a long way from the standard. I believe this is down to several components.
1)Days training
2) not getting a good perspective of there level prior to the test (eg timed runs against a ET opener)
3)Fitness
4)knowledge of how to prepare skis
5)psychological (Many candidates arrive already believing the test is impossible)
6)bad advise on when they are ready to take a test and which hills will suit their skiing
7)support at tests
Its hard to give an average on the amount of training required as its very specific to the individual. I would recommend attending at least a 2 week camp at first, so your level can be assessed and further recommendations can be made from then on how much more training is required. I would also spend a lot of time researching who your coaches will be and there backgrounds in coaching and racing and what the program really offers. I believe its important to make sure you are in good shape, have well prepared skis and attend a test knowing your at the level rather than hoping to get lucky.
Jas is based in New Zealand over the summer, and was in Hemel just to deliver the course.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jjc, what's your view on the impact of someone's age on chances of passing the ET? Do you think it's much harder, or are there fewer older people attempting it?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Patrik Jaerbyn is 41 and still ranked in the top 30 in the world in two discipline, I think its based more on the fitness levels of the candidate rather than their age. I believe the skiing can be improved for any candidate, but the rate of improvement and if it gets to the level will also be dependent on their physical ability. Fortunately this is the area that can be most easily improved, and just requires a bit of dedication. Its important to get a fitness program prepared by a coach that can structure it to be most effective for ski racing. Good fitness levels will also improve all other areas of a candidates skiing, in preparation for the (ISTD) for example.
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jjc, This is very interesting as I do see most of the 'aspirants' in LDA working away at their fitness very hard. Perhaps that's one aspect not given enough attention by many? I posted above about John Nelson who passed ET at 47. Do you think it's important for the candidates to actually do some races before-hand so they can practise getting their head in the right place? This was what I always had trouble with.
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You know it makes sense.
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jjc, as you say the likes of top racers even at 40 or above are still physically very fit when competing. A combination of nutrition/specific exercise and plenty of coordination and flexibility exercises maintain this. Many older aspiring instructors perhaps dont have time but I often suspect the motivation isnt really there, or they actually dont truly believe that it is realistic to consider a pass worthy run. As you say there is big psychological factor, people perceive it as impossible. I have respect for the test but still believe that for a decent skier it is within reach after the appropriate training, as is proven repeatedly by those who pass with limited race experience. (have heard of people winging it with almost no time in gates)
easiski, I dont personally believe the TT is hard, having done around 30 days of training towards it and having consistent pass time for the final 3 weeks of training I actually found it not too hard at all to be quite honest. But this often is not the case. Having attended a ET around 4 days after the TT and having not skied GS for 3 months I was not far off the pass time. So again I would not consider this too hard. I intend on training a further 2 GS weeks on top of my previous 3 last summer and having another go, this time with the appropriate prep. I do respect the test and believe you have to be decent but it is well within the realm of possibility for an experienced skier with the correct training. So I personally expect to pass following 5 weeks, so 25 days of GS training, and got the TT after 30 days from having never hit a SL gate or even skied a stubbie in my life. We all learn at differing pace but I expect that plenty of people may have done less work towards it and found it more natural than myself.
Hopefully, those reading this dont think that what I did is some strange exception, I am sure there are plenty of similar circumstances with fairly limited training. As I said I have heard of good skiers who have passed the ET having spent less than 2 weeks in gates. I do think psychology is very involved, standing in that unfamiliar start-gate get the adrenaline going but anxiety can easily set in pretty quickly!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, R555MAC, I've pondered this a lot over the last few months. On the psychological side I'm surprised that more aspirant Euro test guys don't do more racing for real. I see a lot banging through gates, but that's not 'racing'. At the very least I'd be wanting to treat the 1st run of a training day as a 'race' doing a proper course inspection and attempting a competitive time, first time through the course - having warmed up as I would for a race.
I know for myself it takes a few runs to get up to speed, which is then too late.
As ever with Instructor training the focus is on the technical.
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Poster: A snowHead
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david@mediacopy, i really shouldn't comment as i haven't raced or trained GS but as an arm chair warrior speaking to one coach i know says a lot of the camps seem to want to teach people how to ski instead of how to be fast. Another guy i respect said to me instead of training gates hit rut lines as hard as you can until your not afraid of anything, then go into gates... I tried that last summer and couldn't ski for a few months after dinging up my knee 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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david@mediacopy, skimottaret, as you say to the pre eurotest point there is a lot of emphasis on technique which isnt always concerned with the fastest way down. Towards ADC 2 and L4 exams you are looking into the more positive movements down the hill so you dont just waste energy by standing straight up and are better orientated. Also you do begin to look into GS line choice/setting etc which is pretty handy to know. However as you say a lot of the coaching camps are working largely on technique and perhaps there isnt a great enough focus on line choice/ski prep and other more race relevant aspects.
I participated in a couple of races that were not too serious but had similar age groups. Around 2 weeks into my in gate training was the 1st race. It did feel quite nerve racking so I think it was worth while getting that experience. I raced some 2nd year FIS athletes so could make a decent comparison to how the first 8-10 days of SL training had gone. So you get confidence when youre times give you a nice surprise but the race environment also forces you to inspect thoroughly and to consider everything you have learned training, from the warm ups to visualisation etc. When at the ET I just didnt allow any happy memories or feelings of previous GS in my mind allowing the doubt and anxiety to creep in (perhaps had I been in gates leading up to it I would have some vivid positive memories to remember), whereas with the TT I was stood in the start gate with positive thoughts thinking of all of the good runs I had had previously.
I know that the whole remembering good feelings may sound silly but if you think back to training in that really steep icy fast course with a technical layout and recall a decent run you (or at least I) feel that you can go into the course ahead of you with a high level of confidence. (all IME really, dont know how others find this but Im no sports psychologist)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jjc, just looked at the website. Sounds good like decent focused and comprehensive training. Expect an email soon.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Agree fully with that! If I had produced the kind of skiing I had in training at the ADH EuroTest I think IMHO that I would have passed. Because my mind was in the wrong place I just didnt commit to the steep and didnt even tuck on the flat. Producing on the spot can be the make or break if youre skiing is on the borderline for the pass time. I was calm for the TT because I knew in training that I was coming in well (around 3-4 sec') under the times. With GS it was at that time unknown as to how my own performance was comparable to the ET requirement. My point is that with the TT I knew I could get away with not skiing 100% and therefore wasnt too nervous as I did not have to produce my best run. In the start gate for my GS I knew I probably had to produce to make the cut and putting that pressure on myself seemed to be part of what caused a poor performance. So I guess I need some way of dealing with that pressure, ideally getting 1-2 sec's under consistently in the first training run of each day would give me that assurance Dont know how racers do it though, they really do need that great performance everytime!
Kind of OT now...Just finished a course and the person leading it brought up an interesting fact that the 19 Olympic Golds that team GB won in Beijing were won by a total of something like 0.35 seconds. Shows the performance level you have to be at at the top though!
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psychology is hugely important, and its incredible the difference that can be made from just having the confidence to let the ski run. I find my fastest times tend to come from runs that have felt on edge. Those runs that feel technically perfect and in control are usually slow. When you ask an athlete how they felt after a fast run they normally cant tell you and will say it was auto-pilot, after a slow run you can often analyse the whole run as you have been constantly thinking about technique etc from top to bottom. Technique needs to be worked on and should be a focus in all good training programs, but once you leave the start gate the focus needs to be getting top to bottom as fast as possible which is often forgotten.
Its extremely important during training to be put under race/test day pressures and looking to deliver your best performance on run 1 and 2. After this we can start to experiment and try new things to see how these changes reflect on the clock.
Its also vital to have these runs against a realistic base time on varying courses and regularly be at the level before attending a test. This ensures you go into a test with the confidence to ski at your very best with no niggling doubts.
www.jjc-training.co.uk
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jjc, 'Its also vital to have these runs against a realistic base time on varying courses and regularly be at the level before attending a test. This ensures you go into a test with the confidence to ski at your very best with no niggling doubts'
Exactly how I feel. Sent you that email, no hurry for a reply, in France for the next week or so.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
Yes, very difficult to standardise.
During my PSIA Level 3 training at Keystone, Colorado two mandatory components were:
a timed slalom run on a NASTAR course. The standard required was very achievable with no previous racing or race training experience. And I suspect well below the standard in the Eurotest.
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a graded and timed off-piste run in black terrain, which on this particular day and course had knee deep powder, crud, bumps and trees.
Nobody failed the slalom, at least half failed the off-piste run. |
Ummm NASTAR are open courses almost GS usually aren't they?
and IIRC Rocky Mountain division of PSIA require a GOLD NASTAR ranking -that is top 20% of those that race in any age group and sex category. So 1 in 5 recreational skiers will in theory pass. In reality it is a little less because those with a racing background are more likely to run and many folks never run as they think it is scary.
I would think any recreational skier who can carve cleanly should easily get a gold medal. I did it on my second ever run and I'm no instructor training for exams. I would think this level should be at LEAST platinum (top 5%). I'd even say single digit should be achievable for someone thinking to work teaching others to ski as a profession.
Ah just found the course descriptions - yes GS not slalom
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| Race courses should be about 350 meters in length. Each course is essentially a modified GS course with anywhere from 12 - 20 gates that racers must maneuver around. Gates are set with 18-22 meters of space between gates vertically and 4-8 meters of offset. NASTAR encourages resorts across the country to standardize their course(s) to have a par time of 23 seconds and set courses so that no course is within 5% of the cap time. The "cap time" is defined as the time it takes a pacesetter to tuck from the start to the finish of their course without going around gates and is the fastest possible time the venue will allow. It's important to remember that due to a number of variables at each resort (terrain, pitch, overall conditions, etc.), the look and feel of each race venue will vary according to the resort. However, these standards should enable participants to compare race times as best as possible regardless of when and where they race. |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
Yes, very difficult to standardise.
During my PSIA Level 3 training at Keystone, Colorado two mandatory components were:
a timed slalom run on a NASTAR course. The standard required was very achievable with no previous racing or race training experience. And I suspect well below the standard in the Eurotest.
and:
a graded and timed off-piste run in black terrain, which on this particular day and course had knee deep powder, crud, bumps and trees.
Nobody failed the slalom, at least half failed the off-piste run. |
Ummm NASTAR are open courses almost GS usually aren't they?
and IIRC Rocky Mountain division of PSIA require a GOLD NASTAR ranking -that is top 20% of those that race in any age group and sex category. So 1 in 5 recreational skiers will in theory pass. In reality it is a little less because those with a racing background are more likely to run and many folks never run as they think it is scary.
I would think any recreational skier who can carve cleanly should easily get a gold medal. I did it on my second ever run and I'm no instructor training for exams. I would think this level should be at LEAST platinum (top 5%). I'd even say single digit should be achievable for someone thinking to work teaching others to ski as a profession.
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My bad. GS.
And as I stated, very achievable. Even for the 35+ year olds amongst us
Don't disagree that platinum should be the minimum standard.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
And as I stated, very achievable. Even for the 35+ year olds amongst us
Don't disagree that platinum should be the minimum standard. |
I'll be 50 very shortly... Fastman is over 50 and still running single digits... Platinum should be fairly easy for a full cert instructor in any country - given that the cut off is just top 5% of age group. If a full cert can teach most students then they should be able to run a fairly open course decently
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| one coach i know says a lot of the camps seem to want to teach people how to ski instead of how to be fast. |
Yep, but when I've watched others skiers race training I think they can be their own worse enemy. But then it's taken me a reasonable amount of thought to work out how I'd go about it if I went back to race training, and that is part has been formed by my bike and car track experience.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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without good technique you can't possibly be fast through the gates, which is why you see national teams and serious club racers doing masses of exercises all the time on the core skills. There are other things you can do to help, but if you're not a good enough skier it won't make a shred of difference.
Cautionary tale: young student from Hemel out at Easter and doing ESF Fleche ; I said 'you must tuck until you're SURE you're past the finish line' She thought she could push (going too fast) so stood up and missed Vermeil by tenths of a second. This is the sort of thing that can make a difference in a course, but also things like reading the course and skiing the plan etc.
jjc, I like what I'm hearing - why don't you come to LDA next year?
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You know it makes sense.
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jjc, Les Deux Alpes --- The Acronym is well used here
I put a 'like' on Facebook, You have a good offer for Saas Fee to be honest, but I might be better off on the Generic training (with Snowsports academy NL/WSSV) towards Landes (part 1) first...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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jjc, As Ronald, said - OTOH you could have looked at my sig! I have liked you on facebook - would be nice if you could like Easiski too.
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski You have been liked might even have got three for one there.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jjc, thanks. I do like your product, although I don't personally need it. I think some on here could benefit from a week or two with you guys.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would benefit from it... First things First though...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hmm I wonder if they run the Landes courses in English too...
Bloody hell have you seen the price though?! 920 euros! The Tirolerschilehrerverband runs (german language) for around 500 euros, I forget the exact price but a lot less than 900! That seems extortionate for the anwarter!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Bloody hell have you seen the price though?! 920 euros! |
That includes
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| 10 days of instruction, 10 day lift pass, course and examination fees, theory material, Hotel including breakfast and evening meals, |
Seems reasonable to me.
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No its fine, price is including half board basic hotel and lift pass.
http://www.snowsporttirol.at/index.html/hm/328020/um/328060/articleID/328175
558 course only. 738 Course+liftpass, 1218 Course+lift+Halfboard Hotel.
Seems the 920 is pretty good actually
| Quote: |
Kosten:
Kategorie 1:
Kursgebühr, Prüfungstaxe, Stempelmarken, Verwaltungsgebühr, Skripten
GESAMTKOSTEN: € 558,00 pro Person
Kategorie 2:
Kursgebühr, Prüfungstaxe, Stempelmarken, Verwaltungsgebühr, Skripten, Liftkosten
GESAMTKOSTEN: € 738,00 pro Person
Kategorie 3:
Kursgebühr, Prüfungstaxe, Stempelmarken, Verwaltungsgebühr, Skripten, Liftkosten, Hotel mit HP
GESAMTKOSTEN: € 1.218,00 pro Person |
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Oh yeah, I missed that bit. Actually with lift pass and accomm that's a really good price!
Which organistion is that, is it the Wien (Vienna) one?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It’s been done in Andorra so there is at least a precedent. You used to able to teach there by holding some form of cert plus a cert from the Andorrans. Not any more. There you now need to hold at least the equivalent of the L3 (ISIA) from your country’s governing body. That is the governing body of the country that issued your passport. Dead simple rule.
What is the problem with this ?
I know it’s not going to happen in the EU countries (for the time being) but wouldn’t it be a better idea for British people to get a BASI cert. I’m not saying that BASI is the easiest ISIA to get, but if you’re up to the right standard, you’ll get it.
Americans could/should become qualified through the American system, Canadians through theirs. So if you’re Austrian then why not do the Austrian cert, if not, don’t. So if your passport was issued by the German, French, Tibetan, Italian, etc, authorities then why not do “your” country’s ISIA cert
I’m told that most cats really like pigeons
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Wayne, You may not realise it, but Ronald, is Dutch.
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FAQ
) I got much better after I officially retired and it didn't matter any more! 