 Poster: A snowHead
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EddandSam,
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death - Learn to live with it.
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Best quote on this site for ages. 
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bloxy
bloxy
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| bloxy wrote: |
My conclusion is helmets may be a good idea if you want to avoid minor injuries and there is a view that all reducible risks should be reduced but how far do you go? I can live with the small risk of a bump,graze or cut. What is clear from the evidence is that a ski helmet is not going to save my life or my brain in a major collision. So on balance I will not be buying or wearing one.
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But what about the downhill racer a few weeks ago who smacked his head on the ice? How do you reckon he would have got on without a helmet?
If helmets only protect against minor bumps, why do racers even wear them at all? |
He wasn't wearing a standard Giro type ski helmet! A full downhill race helmet is more akin to a motorcycle helmet and will usually be custom made. Take a look at http://www.jasminalpine.co.uk/alpina_downhill_ski_helmet_id28.html for an idea of a Super G/Slalom helmet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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bloxy, are recreational helmets like Giro certified to different standards than helmets used by downhillers and other racers?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, In addition to the FIS ICR guidance, the rules as per the FIS Equipment
Regulations are:
The use of crash helmets is compulsory for all events.
Only helmets are permitted whose shell and padding cover the head and
ears. The National Ski Associations are advised to provide their teams
only with crash helmets which satisfy the minimum requirements and
which have been certified by recognised institutes.
Helmets with spoilers or edges that stick out are not permitted.
Certain helmets must show a smooth top surface for safety reasons.
Helmets used in FIS Snowsports shall be specifically designed and
manufactured for the particular discipline and shall bear a CE mark and
conform to recognized and appropriate standards such as CEH.Din 1077,
ASTM F2040, SNELL S98 or RS 98, etc.
The main difference between a recreational 'Giro' type helmet and an FIS 'POC' typr helmet is that on the race helmet the outer shell forms the structure, whereas on the recreational it's the liner that offers most of the protection.
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bloxy, are recreational helmets like Giro certified to different standards than helmets used by downhillers and other racers? |
Yes.
One of the problems with all ski helmets is the lack of:
a) definition of what the helmet is protecting from
b) a uniform defined standard.
Have a read of this; http://geartrends.com/geartrends/upload/winter_ch5.3.pdf
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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| Spyderman wrote: |
conform to recognized and appropriate standards such as CEH.Din 1077,
ASTM F2040, SNELL S98 or RS 98, etc. |
CE 1077 was developed in Europe for race helmets in the 1980s and is now regarded as outdated and worthless. There is a Snell standard for which applies to race helmets but:
Again a problem of standards in relation to recreational ski helmets;
"Even when a manufacturer touts it has met a certain standard, what gets glossed over
is that the CEN standard (CE 1077) is dangerously outdated, the ASTM standard (F2040)
has serious weak points, and the entire industry has abandoned the rigorous Snell
standard (RS 98)."
Last edited by bloxy on Mon 11-02-08 22:18; edited 1 time in total
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bloxy, thanks, interesting link.
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| bloxy wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| bloxy wrote: |
My conclusion is helmets may be a good idea if you want to avoid minor injuries and there is a view that all reducible risks should be reduced but how far do you go? I can live with the small risk of a bump,graze or cut. What is clear from the evidence is that a ski helmet is not going to save my life or my brain in a major collision. So on balance I will not be buying or wearing one.
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But what about the downhill racer a few weeks ago who smacked his head on the ice? How do you reckon he would have got on without a helmet?
If helmets only protect against minor bumps, why do racers even wear them at all? |
He wasn't wearing a standard Giro type ski helmet! A full downhill race helmet is more akin to a motorcycle helmet and will usually be custom made. Take a look at http://www.jasminalpine.co.uk/alpina_downhill_ski_helmet_id28.html for an idea of a Super G/Slalom helmet. |
I just looked at that. This race helmet meets the CE standard you then go on to rubbish in your later post?
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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I just looked at that. This race helmet meets the CE standard you then go on to rubbish in your later post? |
(Bear in mind that even the helmet in the case you referred to failed and came off and the racer suffered a serious concussion.)
That's the problem.
Whilst the standard for race helmets higher than the average punters helmet, all of the standards are disparate and flawed.
The Snell standard is about the best at the moment but recreational helmets can't be made to meet it so manufacturers have abandoned it.
There are some articles in the British Journal of Sports Medicine which suggest current helmet technology is inadequate to provide protection for skiing at the speeds achieved even by recreational skiers. A helmet robust and strong enough would simply be too bulky and heavy.
So for all those who want helmets made compulsory, just what are you going to make compulsory?
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| bloxy wrote: |
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I just looked at that. This race helmet meets the CE standard you then go on to rubbish in your later post? |
(Bear in mind that even the helmet in the case you referred to failed and came off and the racer suffered a serious concussion.)
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Without the helmet I reckon he could well have been dead now. Obviously I have no scientific proof, but it just seems pretty obvious from the initial impact. What do you reckon? In my own experiece I've personally crash tested a few mountain bike helmets over the years and one Dainese ski helmet and they've all done a great job of preventing possible concussion and in at least one case serious cuts.
The article you link to concerning the lack of coherent safety standards is very interesting, but I don't think it's intended to put people off wearing a helmet. I think the better branded helmets from the likes of Giro, Dainese etc are likely to offer a useful level of protection providing they fit properly. Certainly a step up from a beanie at least!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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has anybody seen the Ribcap Impact Protection Beanie - stumbled accross this thread and just thought i'd mention it considering your last point. It will clearly be better than a beanie and at least they dont claim it will save your life
"protect you against bumps, bruises, grazes, etc..."
Ribcap Beanie
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dave s, I've seen similar protective beanie type hats in "building trade" catalogues. Not quite sure what the differences between them and "Ribcaps" are though.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thats America. Nearly all resort skiing is on private & forestry land, they can introduce laws like that easy & being the USA they will.
It will never happen in Europe. OK they may stop you from riding the lifts but Europes mountains are Free to ski for everyone with or without helmets or for that mater any safety equipment.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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dave s, what a great idea.. especially the one that has a balaclava bit
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Poster: A snowHead
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especially the one that has a balaclava bit
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Yes, it will make "DOING" a bank safer.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| parallel lines, interesting. Dr Langran concludes that helmets will not protect you if you have a high speed impact - so I am unclear how likely it would be that a helmet would save you from a coma - though I guess it is just possible. OTOH I have seen a friend fall head first on his back down a black slope mogul field for about 800 feet - and it was the major factor in me buying one. I think it could prevent some discomfort and make such a fall slightly less stressful. I was also glad of it when skiing through the trees at La Grave - but again I did not think it would save me from major injury. |
Same for seat belts, there probably not going to save your life if you hit the wall at 100+ mph but if you hit the wall at 30 your not going to smash your skull on the steering wheel. However consider a low speed fall onto ice or rock or some bit of machinery its going to do its job. My helmet has on more than one occasion, a few of them my fault, a few not. Its a choice but I would rather mitigate my risk of cracking my skull open as much as I can.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@lordf, Have a look at the age of this thread.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| lordf wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| parallel lines, interesting. Dr Langran concludes that helmets will not protect you if you have a high speed impact - so I am unclear how likely it would be that a helmet would save you from a coma - though I guess it is just possible. OTOH I have seen a friend fall head first on his back down a black slope mogul field for about 800 feet - and it was the major factor in me buying one. I think it could prevent some discomfort and make such a fall slightly less stressful. I was also glad of it when skiing through the trees at La Grave - but again I did not think it would save me from major injury. |
Same for seat belts, there probably not going to save your life if you hit the wall at 100+ mph but if you hit the wall at 30 your not going to smash your skull on the steering wheel. However consider a low speed fall onto ice or rock or some bit of machinery its going to do its job. My helmet has on more than one occasion, a few of them my fault, a few not. Its a choice but I would rather mitigate my risk of cracking my skull open as much as I can. |
Helmet wearers are such a clumsy lot. Always banging their heads and falling over.
Perhaps skiing isn't for them.
Would be safer for everyone.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have to, when I had a child and he learned to ski he questioned why I wasn't wearing one, and I didn't have an answer. Now it seems weird to not ski with one.
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FAQ
