 Poster: A snowHead
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.....OK, so after a bit of research etc I've decided to drive to Austria when we go skiing in February. I want to get some winter tyres but just wanted to check a few of the basics first:
> Do I need to get a spare set of rims or can I just get a local garage to change the tyres?
> If I get a spare set of rims is it ok to just jack the car up and change them myself or should they get balanced etc by a garage?
> Will I still need to carry chains (both from legal and practical point of view)?
Cheers!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Tirol, No need for new rims. Just get them to change the tyres (might cost around a tenner a corner or less) and then just store your others somewhere.
My chains are just for show. Simply haven't needed them. But it is compulsary to carry them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Tirol wrote: |
| > Do I need to get a spare set of rims or can I just get a local garage to change the tyres? |
You can use the same wheels but
1) if you have alloy wheels they are much more likely to get damaged in winter.
2) Winter tyres tend to be a smaller dimension and therefore cheaper. Narrower winter tyres also perform better in winter conditions.
3) Heard it's not good taking a tyre off the rim and then putting it back on - weakens the side walls. Plus it's something you can't normally do yourself so it costs more. Over the life of the tyre steel rims maybe cheaper. (save on tyre changing and tyre cost)
| Tirol wrote: |
| > If I get a spare set of rims is it ok to just jack the car up and change them myself or should they get balanced etc by a garage? |
The first time you put new tyres on a steel rim it's best to get the balancing checked. After that you can change the wheels yourself although be sure to check tyre wear and if it is uneven get the tracking checked. If there is excess vibration then get the balancing checked again.
| Tirol wrote: |
| > Will I still need to carry chains (both from legal and practical point of view)? |
Legally in Austria you can drive on summer tyres although in bad weather you should stop. Legally you need winter tyres or chains to drive in bad winter weather. Summer tyres and chains are unpracticable, winter tyres are much better. Certain resorts have steep access roads where chains are often required (e.g. Obertauern, Hochkar, Sölden etc). It's unlikely you would need chains unless travelling to such a resort.
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A DB, says, winter tyres are generally smaller (check your car handbook) and cheaper. I was lucky a couple of seasons ago to get smaller a set of alloys for £225 delivered from Alloywheels.com, tyres were then just £105 each (Pirelli Sottozero) instead of low profile at £150. You'll still have to store your summer tyres so having a wheel inside them will not take up any more space. Much easier to change them at your leisure than pfaff around swapping them on the rims every six months/whenever.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I really wouldn't be buying Winter Tyres if you are driving from the UK to Austria just for a holiday. Most roads are kept clear and if it dumps down you will probably need chains anyway. For me I'd just make sure your normal tyres have plenty of tread and then carry chains for when they are required.
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downhillalltheway, for sure the Austrians are darn good at keeping the main roads clear but that doesn't mean that summer tyres are OK. Mostly I'd say they are too swept to use chains and still too icy for normal summer tyres. Car parks, side roads, driveways to hotels etc are all likely to be covered in snow that's been worn into ice and then the merest slope will cause a problem on summer tyres. The Dutch are very good at holding up traffic because they are on the wrong tyres. On the way down through Germany the autobahn can get tricky. Personally I'll never ever go back to summer tyres/chains.
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So, on a front wheel drive car can you get away with Winter Tyres just in the front, or do they need to be all round ?
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The law in Austria:
https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/134/Seite.1340000.html#WinterTyres
| Quote: |
Compulsory Winter Tyres
Passenger cars and trucks with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 t
Passenger cars and trucks with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 t may be operated only between 1 November and 15 April in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice if winter tyres have been installed on all wheels.
As an alternative to winter tyres, snow chains may be used on at least two driving wheels, however, these may only be used in case the road is covered by a complete or scarcely broken snow cover or sheet of ice.
Please Note: Winter tyres are tyres with a certain depth of profile used as snow and mud tyres or as snow, mud and ice tyres, i.e., tyres marked "M/E" or "M/S/E".
Vehicles exempt from this requirement are:
Public security service vehicles, army vehicles, and fire trucks on which it is impossible or not useful to install winter tyres due to the vehicle's design or due to its predominant purpose of use,
Vehicles equipped with "special" tyres due to the vehicle’s design or due to its predominant purpose of use,
Vehicles used for tests or the transfer of vehicles.
Compulsory Snow Chains
Between 1 November and 15 April drivers of trucks with a permissible weight exceeding 3.5 t and bus drivers as well as drivers of related vehicles are required to carry suitable snow chains for at least two driving wheels onboard.
Snow chains may only be used if necessary and only if they are mounted in such a way that they do not damage the road surface (only in case the road is covered by a complete or scarcely broken snow cover or sheet of ice).
Vehicles exempt from this regulation are:
Vehicles on which it is impossible to mount snow chains for design reasons,
Vehicles that can only be used on snow-free roads due to their design,
Vehicles belonging to Class M2 and M3 (busses) used for public transportation |
Much useful info in this monster thread:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=67395
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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AndAnotherThing..,  I assume (hope) you're joking.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| downhillalltheway wrote: |
| I really wouldn't be buying Winter Tyres if you are driving from the UK to Austria just for a holiday. Most roads are kept clear and if it dumps down you will probably need chains anyway. For me I'd just make sure your normal tyres have plenty of tread and then carry chains for when they are required. |
What's the maximum speed you can drive with chains? 30 mph?
How far can you drive with chains before they wear out or snap - are we talking hundreds of miles?
How long does it take to put on / take off chains?
As you aren't allowed to use chains on bare tarmac does that mean that on a long journey might you need to put chains on / take them off multiple times?
If you suddenly hit a patch of snow / ice but didn't have an immediate place to pull over and put on the chains what would you do - stop in the middle of the road and put the chains on or drive on for a while?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have winter tyres on my wife's car. Got them last October on special offer at the local garage and then spent that late November onwards in the North East driving past all the 4x4 cars who struggled in the snow last winter. As said the Austrians will have the roads clear, might need the winter tyres for the Uk instead
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| AndAnotherThing.., I assume (hope) you're joking. |
No, not on a front wheel drive car. I suppose you may have a grip imbalance between front and back but surly no worse than if using chains ?
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks for the replies. I was initially sceptical about going the whole hog and getting winter tyres but I understand that they perform better in cold weather in general plus they'll prolong the life of my normal tyres anyway so in the long run you can recoop the cost. Just had a look at mytyres.com and they do a winter tyre/steel rim combo from just under £100/wheel so not too bad when you think how much a new summer tyres costs anyway.
The Austrians are good at keeping roads clear but I had a slightly embarrassing experience a few years ago in Solden - practically the whole town had bare tarmac roads expect for the 30m stretch outside our B&B which was slightly up the side of the valley. We had a German hire car with summer tyres and couldn't negotiate the very slight incline on the snowy section to get us to the bare tarmac. It was a real pain to change the chains so we kept them on for the few short journies we made and got lots of bemused looks from the locals as we trundled along  .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Here in Austria the winters are generally colder, the air temp can remain below freezing for months, the roads too. The roads are cleared but typically patches with thin layers of compressed snow / ice / refrozen slush remain. With summer tyres it would be a nightmare but snowchains can't be used as they would damage the road. A summer tyre on a frozen road offers very little grip, the tyre rubber becomes harder and very little traction / grip is offered. Some Austrians who leave it too late to change to their winter tyres can't even get away from the lights and just slide sideways (depending on the camber of the road). Getting enough traction is not the biggest risk, it's being able to go round corners or brake without losing control.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| AndAnotherThing.., I assume (hope) you're joking. |
No, not on a front wheel drive car. I suppose you may have a grip imbalance between front and back but surly no worse than if using chains ? |
Snow chains are designed for low speed use over short distances.
No motoring organisation, tyre manufacturer or person in their right mind would advise you to put only two winter tyres on a vehicle (4WD, FWD or RWD).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| AndAnotherThing.., I assume (hope) you're joking. |
No, not on a front wheel drive car. I suppose you may have a grip imbalance between front and back but surly no worse than if using chains ? |
That is of course true but with chains you generally be going much slower than 30mph, whereas the winter tyres are on all the time.
Edit Beaten to it!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fair enough.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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AndAnotherThing.., There was a thread on this earlier tine they year - mesage was clear; do not mix winter and summer tyres. Remember also that you don't travel very fast with chains and usually take extra care.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beequin, I understand & respect what people are saying, but it's not as if the 'normal' tyres loose the grip they normally have. In marginal conditions you would expect to reduce speed accordingly. It follows that issue would be rear instability under braking, or over-steer due to the miss match in front & rear grip, but I do wonder just how bad it would be.
It would be interesting to drive a car fitted both in low temps just to see.
Of course that's not to say that the problem is actually one of stability caused by differences in tyre construction, cross-ply / radial style.
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I originally had snow tyres just on the front, on the advice of the French garage who sold me the tyres. One snowy night I completely lost the back end and did a 180 skid, ended up facing back down the road I'd been coming up.
I am a very gentle driver, it was a very, very, slight bend and it was snowing heavily - I could hardly have been going any more cautiously. I've driven through a pile of winters now, and that was my only significant skid. We now have 4 snow tyres; I needed no more convincing.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| beequin, I understand & respect what people are saying, but it's not as if the 'normal' tyres loose the grip they normally have. |
Yes they do, the rubber becomes harder as it cools. e.g. Hard plastic wheels on kids bikes don't grip as well as rubber ones. Winter tyres have a softer compound.
| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| In marginal conditions you would expect to reduce speed accordingly. It follows that issue would be rear instability under braking, or over-steer due to the miss match in front & rear grip, but I do wonder just how bad it would be. |
Problem in Austria is that virtually all the other cars will have winter tyres and you will tend to drive as fast as them. When they brake hard or take a corner at speed you will probably shunt them up the rear end or not hold the road as well as they do.
| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| It would be interesting to drive a car fitted both in low temps just to see. |
I do it every year. Even in November when it's cold 2 to 7 deg and wet there is a massive difference in grip. In real winter conditions cars with summer tyres get stranded while cars with winter tyres get to where they want to be.
| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| Of course that's not to say that the problem is actually one of stability caused by differences in tyre construction, cross-ply / radial style. |
People generally go for the same tyre type on all four corners.
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DB, Yes, I agree with your points and low temperatures will be part of the question.
I've done a couple of Alpine seasons with 'summer' tires on our car and didn't especially struggle, hence wondering. Still it was made in Turin so perhaps it liked being closer to home
My post was made from my own perspective, UK Winter, Small Hatchback, narrow tires. I was really trying to work out if the advantages \ disadvantages of having just the fronts fitted would outweigh not having them at all.
I guess it's a redundant question given the insurance considerations.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, ...your observations absolutely right...the French garage could easily have killed you and or an oncoming vehicle. There's lots on the web regarding the fact that two winter tyres actually severely impedes the stability of a car - worse than having no winter tyres at all, in some regard. I have used winter tyres for 20 years in the Alps - simply have narrower and smaller steel rims for winter - they get changed in the autumn and alloys go back on in the spring. Bit more of an outlay, but summer tyres not wearing when they're stacked in the garage during the winter, so it's wings and roundabouts - get some winter tyres and you don't waste any money, and steel rims are peanuts on fleabay. More to the point, we got around England safely - stopping distance in the rain in winter is much less on winter tyres as well as enabling us to get around in the ice and snow before christmas, which saw many cars in the ditch.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If an originally alloys shod car is (temporarily) fitted with steel rims is it required to advise one's insurance company about the 'modification'?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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spyderjon, I reckon so, a definite yes. It's a modification.
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Thanks for all of the responses. Just one last question - do the winter tyres need to be the same size as the summer tyres I'm replacing? FWIW at the moment I have 205/60/16 sized tyres.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Tirol wrote: |
| Thanks for all of the responses. Just one last question - do the winter tyres need to be the same size as the summer tyres I'm replacing? FWIW at the moment I have 205/60/16 sized tyres. |
They are generally one size smaller (narrower). Give me the details of your car and I'll try to find out what they would put on it over here in Austria.
............. this thread should help.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=73439
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Tirol, I went for same size and keep 'em on all year round.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Tirol, They can be smaller, but you need to maintain the overall diameter of the wheel to keep your speedo reading correctly. If you check your handbook that should (may?) give you the winter tyre alternative size.
There is a calculator at http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html (scroll down) which lets you put in your current size and compare that to alternatives and show the resulting speedo error.
If you are going for replacement rims as well, they you can drop the rim size too: I'm changing my summer 235/45-17 to winter 215/60-16.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Talking to a Chap from Michelin tyres today apprently Winter tyres in the UK are already in short supply. Caused by a major factory in Japan not being back in production aftert the Japaneses earthquake!
So if you are thinking of buying winter tyres DO NOT DELAY.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Might be a really stupid question, but how do you fit a different size tyre to the same wheel?
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snowsteve, Obviously rim diameter needs to be right and you can get away with a small width reduction. I cannot see the point though so just fit the exact same tyre size as normal. Fitting a winter tyre 20mm narrower might make a small difference in difficult conditions but on an everyday icy road surface I can't see the advantage.
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RobW, Beware, dropping a rim diameter can sometimes foul on the brake calipers, but if that size is perhaps from a lower spec version of your car then you should be OK, unless they also upgraded the brakes for the higher spec car.
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| snowsteve wrote: |
| Might be a really stupid question, but how do you fit a different size tyre to the same wheel? |
Why do you want to use the same wheels?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If I have a front wheel drive, right hand drive car, do I just need one snow tyre on the front right ?
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| alti - dude wrote: |
| If I have a front wheel drive, right hand drive car, do I just need one snow tyre on the front right ? |
yes, but only if it completely the wrong size. I also find it helps to fit chains to the spare.
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FAQ
