 Poster: A snowHead
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On my way home from work last night I was listening to the news on the radio and heard the announcement that Germany is going to change its Winter Tyres regulations. I then switch to a more detailed News Channel to get the details.
Before the start of this winter season the Ministry of Transport is going to push through legislation making it a offence to be driving on German roads without winter tyres. The current legislation only comes into effect if you have an accident and are not using suitable tyres for the conditions. The primary aim is to catch all the lorries and trucks that cause chaos on the roads in cold weather by not having suitable tyres (mostly southern and eastern European but also some British and other Atlantic fringe countries). I commute along the A8 Munich -Salzburg and have often seen lorries struggling to maintain traction on the Irschenberg for example.
This means that Germany will be enforcing the rule (nice little earner!) and it is the foreign transit vehicles that will be coming under the beady eye of the police. Remember that in Germany they do not need "reasonable suspicion" to stop you and check all your paperwork as well as the state of your vehicle. I imagine that the fines will be "On the Spot" as they are aiming to catch the rogue truckers.
So those of you DIYers who think using German autobahns is a nice way to avoid the high costs of French toll roads better be sure that you have the right markings on your tyres.
The rationale is that we get a lot of traffic chaos as well as fatal accidents each year due to vehicles not having suitable tyres for the season/weather conditions. They have tried the "voluntary route" and it has not really been effective where they wanted it to be. Now it is going to be enforceable and they are intending to push the legislation through so that it takes effect this year. I'll be sure to let you know when it comes into effect as I think it is a done deal to be honest.
Getting mine switched as usual at the end of this month before I go to Sölden for the opening World Cup races.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 28-11-10 16:41; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This will be interesting - I live less than 10 miles from the German border and a lot of Dutch people nip over for cheaper supermarkets, christmas markets etc. I wonder how they're going to enforce this...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interesting. What do they consider the 'winter' season, where the use will be compulsory?
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Hmm a bit short notice for this coming winter for most trucking companys. I would guess a set for an artic would cost what? About £3,000? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In pretty much all countries where this rule exists already (I know for sure at least for Slovenia and whole Scandinavia), "winter season" is defined by date (and it can extend if weather and road conditions are winter like). Here in Slovenia, this means anything between 15th of November and 15 of March. So I guess it will go same way for Germany (most likely with a bit different dates).
| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| Getting mine switched as usual at the end of this month before I go to Sölden for the opening World Cup races. |
Interestingly same schedule for me 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Irschenberg for example
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Can't stand that bit. Especially the uphill 2 lane bit with no hard shoulder. Do you stick behind a truck at 30 or try and squeeze past on snow?
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Remember that in Germany they do not need "reasonable suspicion" to stop you and check all your paperwork as well as the state of your vehicle.
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Been stopped 4x randomly. Even with Schengen, the border police can and do still stop and check paperwork. Border police tends to be a car going really slowly in the slow lane that'll flash up "Polizei Bitte Folgen" just when you're about to overtake  presumably in search of drugs etc. (from Netherlands at least)? Also had roadblocks where they stop everyone on road between Autobahn and Autohof (had that near Memmingen). So they can and do stop, so presumably have more things to check for now?
I'm assuming 15th Nov - 15th March (in line with most other countries). Got my M+S with snowflake and mountain symbol on the car already (although as I found in Switzerland, they are rubbish on mud)
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Oh - and I would assume that Rental cars @ MUC etc. will definitely come with M+S now? Rather than making brits pay extra for snow tyres, when the car would probably already have the "all season M+S" ones anyway.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stanton, It was announced in the Bundestag (German Parliament) yesterday, but many organisations were aware of it coming, including the ADAC. It is not YET law but will be soon. There MAY be a period of grace but I doubt it as the current legislation could rightfully be interpreted as being such.
The article you have cited is stating quite clearly why it is being bought in; the current legislation is too wishy-washy to be effective.
Alexandra, it will be enforced and spot checks will be a common way of doing it. They will probably go hard and fast to begin with, especially on the borders where people transit into Germany. To be honest it was only a matter of time anyway. Here in Bavaria we suffer a lot with lorries from the south causing accidents all year round. In winter it is even worse.
I suspect it will be effective from 01.01.2011 at the absolute latest from what I have heard and read today. However I think I heard in a discussion on the early morning news programme that they are going to try and ratify it in time for a 15th November introduction. This will then put us in line with Austria and the other countries that have a fixed regulation. They have all party agreement so it only needs a vote in the Bundestag then a ratification by the Bundesrat, all of which can be done relatively quickly seeing as there will be little if any discussion.
I'll update when I hear more.
Sue 
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Yes andy, this sounds like good news for us, as our rental cars out of Munich will now have to have suitable tyres, so at least less in the way of 'on the day' charges. I'm not saying it will be universally cheaper, but I prefer to know the price I see when I hit 'book' is the price I will pay, without EUR5 per day for this and EUR9 per day for that etc.
And in general, I would say about time! Also using the A8 frequently (although not as frequently as Samerberg Sue!) for a couple of seasons and it can be treacherous, especially with vehicles/drivers not equipped for the conditions. In my experience, the snow clearing on the German side seems to be less efficient than in Austria (2 hours to go 30 miles in Germany, 1 hour to do the next 50 miles on the Austrian side, happened a few times!), so having the right kit is even more important.
Thanks for the update Samerberg Sue.
D
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hmm, still pretty short notice for hire fleets to lay in enogh tyres, our mini bus from thrifty never has winter tyres on it, made me sign a disclainer last year when they saw our skis and worked out we were heading over the border. I shouldbook quick before they try putting up prices.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Current AA advice for UK drivers in Germany is that Winter tyres, with appropriate symbols, are recommended. Generally, within the EU, the practice seems to be to accept the construction and use regulations of the registration country, but I notice Samerberg Sue refers to non-German vehicles.
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| Quote: |
This will then put us in line with Austria and the other countries that have a fixed regulation
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Aoste (Italy) is Oct 15 to April 15 on the autostrada. Which means I'll be very naughty on Friday.
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You know it makes sense.
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Not read rest of thread but M+S tyres will be acceptable as well, which everyone should really be having if they're driving in germany in the winter.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It should also be bourne in mind that winter tyres have lower speed ratings, mainly H (130mph), T (118mph) and Q (99mph) than summer tyres. Something I had to be aware of coming home through Germany in the middle of the night last winter. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, it is being done because there have been far too many incidents with HGVs particularly in winter where serious traffic problems as well as loss of life have occurred. Also many private vehicles from the UK, Netherlands, France, etc., have been involved in accidents causing considerable outlay from the authorities here to repair the resulting damage to the roads or to pay for recovery costs.
They have tried the non-draconian way, i.e it has been advisory for a long time, backed up by the option for your insurer to not pay your costs if you are involved in an accident when you have unsuitable tyres on your vehicle. Now they have decided to enforce it.
I think your insurers could also reconsider whether they pay the costs if you cause/or are involved in an accident because you are not properly equipped to cope with the traffic conditions, regardless of where your car is registered. A clear case of "when in Rome" maybe 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Timmaah, you sure about that? Normally you need the snowflake and mountain logos... M+S is mud and light snow only...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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under a new name, I commuted to and from resort all last winter on M&S tyres. In a Twingo and occasionally through snow half way up the doors. Or is that what you call 'light snow'?
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under a new name, actually you don't. I emailed both the German and Austrian authorities before my trip in January to check that specific point. Germany replied with the advisory legislation as it currently is and Austria only require M&S although M,S &E (eis) is also acceptable, which would seem to be the case going forward in Germany.
I also spoke to a national tyre fitting company who advised that the mountain and snowflake symbol is not universal as there is no specific legislation out-with North America for its use. I was told it is a bit of a lottery, depending upon the manufacturer and even where and when the tyre was made. Apparently some manufacturers put them on winter tyres only and some on both all season and winters. Sometimes this can be just for a specific market and the same make & spec of tyre made in the US will have it whilst one made in Europe will not, similarly it may just depend when a factory updated its moulds to incorporate the logo.
There is to be a new, EU wide, tyre labelling legislation introduced in 2012 and I would not be surprised to see the tyre/season suitability legislation also change, even here in the UK. In fact another winter like last in the next couple and it will be odds on - and I'm sure the tyre industry are lobbying furiously to that end!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
would seem to be the case going forward in Germany
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So is it different when you're reversing then? That's inconvenient.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Since last year I bought a spare set of winter tyres to go skiing on my 4x4 for personal safety consideration.
If it complies with the German law then it is only incidental.
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I simply cannot imagine that the German government will enact this act as soon as 1 January 2011. I live in the Netherlands and (outside skiing holidays) travel frequently to Germany (Düsseldorf mainly). I know of a lot of people who do the same. The new law would be a big issue and I have never heard of it before...
I prefer the current situation, as it would increase holiday costs considerably. At least they should wait for enactment until the '11-'12 winter season.
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Eyeopener, when the law changed in Austria it happened very quickly, so I wouldn't have thought January 2011 is unrealistic. From memory, it was between August and December that it changed in Austria. People (Austrians and others) just had to lump it!
It does seem strange though that this seems to be a countrywide thing, as proper winter conditions in the northwestern areas are not as severe or frequent as in the south-eastern areas. It would seem equally strange for the whole of France to have to have winter tyres, given the different climates of west versus east and north versus south (especially on the med, can't imagine the St Tropez set having winter tyres!).
FWIW I'm all in favour in general, but can see that for someone in the Netherlands who pops into Northern Germany frequently it could be a bit of a pain.
D
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Timmaah, you sure about that? Normally you need the snowflake and mountain logos... M+S is mud and light snow only... |
Well the minister Ramsauer says that m+s tyres will be ok.
Google translate will help if you speak german but the paragraph is notably:
| http://www.rundschau-online.de/html/artikel/1286192368224.shtml wrote: |
| Ramsauer kündigte an, dass bei der neuen Regelung in der Straßenverkehrsordnung genau beschrieben werde, was winterliche Straßenverhältnisse und Winterreifen seien. Bei den Reifen werde sich der Entwurf der Verordnung voraussichtlich an den Bezeichnungen der Hersteller orientieren. Zu den Winterreifen zählt Ramsauer M+S-Reifen sowie «Allwetterreifen» oder Reifen mit einem Schneesymbol. |
Either way.. it's not law at the moment.
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Lizzard, yeah, but as we all know, you are special.
Actually a Twingo probably doesn't need snow tyres. Very lightweight and skinny tyres.
robboj, very interesting - and good to know, thanks.
Deliaskis, My belief is that winter tyres provide additional traction and shorter breaking distances below +7C so even in St Trop they'd be useful in winter.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Do any of the winter tyres mentioned above also have the little retractable metal spikes as used on 'winter tyres' in Scandinavian countries?
When I lived in Sweden in the 70's these tyres (known as dubbdack) were widely used, although there was determined period during the winter only (October to April?) when they could be fitted to vehicles.
The problem with these 'dubbdack' tyres was that they would cause considerable wear on the road when there was not much snow/ice and which caused tracks to be worn into the road where most vehicles followed the same route. During summer rain these tracks would fill with water and caused vehicles to 'aquaplane' when braking. the problem was so bad I believe Sweden have even considered banning this type of tyre.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| robboj wrote: |
There is to be a new, EU wide, tyre labelling legislation introduced in 2012 and I would not be surprised to see the tyre/season suitability legislation also change, even here in the UK. In fact another winter like last in the next couple and it will be odds on - and I'm sure the tyre industry are lobbying furiously to that end! |
Further to my earlier post a very interesting coincidence occurred this afternoon. I was in a BMW garage enquiring about a new car and with this mornings posts in mind I wanted to check that the wheels could be fitted with M&S tyres. To my amazement I was offered as an official manufacturers option to have an additional set of winter wheels and tyres supplied for my vehicle with the dealer storing whatever wheels are not in use. When I questioned further about this I was told and shown the BMW memo from when it was introduced only 10 days ago. The salesman was quite happy to let me read it, basically it explained the sales pitch to the dealer that it is commonplace in Germany and the Alpine countries and also gave the safety benefits and finished off that BMW believe that it may well be a legal requirement in future.
You read it here first !
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You know it makes sense.
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winter tyres are really rather useful
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a chum of ours was most disappointed when his uber-expensive Range Rover Sport couldn't get up the hill to his house as the M+S tyres couldn't cope. At one stage the car's "brain" just gave up.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
Mr Marmot, I believe (but do not know for sure) that they are illegal in Germany because of the damage they do to the roads. In Sweden you would use them on a closed, compacted layer of snow and ice wouldn't you? It is rare that we have that for prolonged enough periods to make it worthwhile. Using salt and brine they usually get the roads back to an asphalt surface pretty fast. The ploughs then sweep any surplus snow away pretty quickly too. I've also seen signs in Austria indicating that they are not allowed on certain main roads and certainly they are not allowed on the autobahns.
Sue |
This could be annoying then.... Norwegians, like Swedes already, own two sets of rims and tyres for every car, and very many people still use piggdekk (dubbdäck, studded tyres) on their winter rims. Both my cars have them and for mountain driving I wouldn't be without them. The drivers with the studless tyres need us to break up the ice for them, otherwise their tyres would be useless on ice-rink days. Problem now is that if we want to drive through Germany in the winter we'll need a third set of tyres, even if the roads are bare!
One of these years I guess I'll have to put my old fashioned prejudices aside and buy studless winter tyres...... worrying thought though. That could easily mean several days each winter when I can't drive to work.
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Poster: A snowHead
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any news on the law change in Germany?
I am driving out to Stuben prior to Easter and given my desire to also drive to some English ski slopes this season I am now the proud owner of nice new fitted 235/65R17 (108H) Vredestein Wintrac 4 Xtreme XL fitted courtesy of http://www.clickontyres.com/ who was recommended on another forum and seems to be one of the few places in the UK that has some 17 and 18" still left in stock!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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kitenski, come on, you just wanted to tell us about your new tyres eh? What do you care what the Germans do now?
I have the same tyres (although mine are 245s) - really excellent and kept them on all summer with no issues.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller, well perhaps I've not found a bad word said against them, and they seem to do very well in any independent tests that I read!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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kitenski, you will get nodding respect from passers-by who know their tyres. I generally return to my vehicle to find women draped over the bonnet in various stages of undress and one or two licking the Giugiaro logo or fingering the M+S Snowflake. Tyres sure can turn your life around.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, I shall let you know if the Northern lasses respond the same way 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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kitenski, no news yet. The meeting where it will be ratified is on Friday but they may have bigger fish to fry. I'll post as soon as I hear/read anything!
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Northern lasses would be happy with some dodgy remoulds
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kitenski, You've got an XC90??? How do you find the tyres. My local tyre shops stocks Vredstein at decent prices and was thinking of getting some this year as the XC90 wasn't exactly great on the snow and ice this year - we had for over 2 weeks on our street
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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boabski, no idea in winter I am afraid,I only had it for a few months, 5k miles
Reading the Volvo forums I think most agree with you that the stock tyres are not good on snow/ice, indeed the ones I had on didn't have any M&S marking.
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kitenski, Sorry, should have asked how the tyres were, compared with the standard tyres already fitted?
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FAQ
