 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello everyone, I am new to this forum so please bear with me.
My name is John Scott and along with my mate Morgan Sinclair, I hope to climb and then ski the West Face of Mont Blanc in May of this year.
This is my 27th season skiing and we are hoping that in fulfilling an ambition of many years that we can also raise some cash for a good cause. (Macmillan Cancer Support)
I am not on here to beg for cash however you can donate at www.justgiving.com/Mont-Blanc2010 if you so desire. All donations are gratefully received. (There is also a lot more background info on us there)
No, what I have registered on this forum for is to try and find out if anyone else from the UK has skied this face and to pick peoples brains regarding anything to do with this challenge as despite my experience I have never been to this altitude or been on this side of the mountain.
A local guide is going to be coming with us at the time which of course helps, but anything at all that you guys can discuss with me is welcome.
I am training hard whilst offshore on the rig I work on and skiing/touring as much as possible whilst at home. Any help on fitness is welcome.
Morgan is staying in Chamonix for the season and anyone out there may see his blue Subaru with MB2010 stickers all over it. If so, say hi and offer him your support please.
Both of us know people directly effected/helped by Macmillan, hence the choice of beneficiary.
Rab outdoor gear are also supplying us with equipment and HD helmet cams to film the descent if the weather is good enough to let us do it. So hopefully I should have something to show for it on youtube etc later this year.
So, basically, if you have read this far, anything and I mean anything that you may have to give as advice or support will be appreciated. PLease let others know about this challenge to help raise our profile and hopefully donations.
Regards
John Scott
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skijohn1972, can't help you info but good luck for the Mt Blanc climb.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I just spotted the subaru heading up the valley towards les grands - he is hard to miss with the huge stickers! Good luck with your challenge.
CP
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| norris wrote: |
The west face is route very rarely in condition and needs a big snow year for it to fill in....also very commiting as no escape route but no doubt you know all this I hope.... |
A face not to be underestimated, which Baud arguably does.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I don't think anyone on here has skiied a line like that!
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Phil Ingle maybe?
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A face not to be underestimated, which Baud arguably does.
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I don't know, I've got his book here (been sick for almost a week so been sat in apartment going crazy), part of reading his descriptions is getting a feel for what he means, I always get the idea that when he mentions actual climbing and a need for experience that 99.99% of skiers (me easily included) should file it under ooo that looks pretty and move on to the next route. Unfortunately in this case that's the arete de Peutery: looks pretty.
Anyway, skijohn1972, good luck, hope you get the right conditions.
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Swirly, did you notice the youtube vid - he does it on a splitboard 
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Since the release of the ski flim 'Steep' this seems be have become a fashionable descent... Though I wouldn't set your heart firmly on the west face - it is rarely skied and some (most?) years there simply wont be enough snow. Last winter was exceptional in the alps and the line saw several well documented descents - which might not be repeated for several years. Though none other than Glen Plake and Cham legend Remi Lecuse had to be helicoptered off this route last winter (when they ran out of time).
http://www.tetongravity.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=163888&page=2
My understanding is that the huge vertical drop is what makes the descent so difficult... You need to summit very early to have sufficient time. Assuming the top section is stable you then need to get to the bottom of the route fast before serac falls and giant wet snow avalanches make the exit too dangerous.
| Quote: |
| find out if anyone else from the UK has skied this face |
Not that I know of... But the kind of people who ski such lines don't always document them on the t'interweb.
By all accounts there are loads of ripping brits in Chamonix these days.
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| I have never been to this altitude |
Above 4000m you *will* feel like cr@p - no matter how fit you are. Skiing a 40 / 50 degree slope is one thing - but when your legs are like jelly and your head is pounding then is a totally different matter.
It took us 2 attempts to summit Mont Blanc, via the more humble Grand Mulets - Just getting to the summit is tough, even by conventional routes. The smart option would be to do a few high altitude tours in the alps to see how you cope first. If hiring a UIAGM guide then he will certainly want to see you in action beforehand.
Good luck!
Doug.
p.s From his blog Tobias Granath looks like a proper viking skiing machine 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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He ticks off these lines like mere mortals tick off blues runs!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I thought it had not been repeated until last year. May be wrong though
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Standard ski descent route off of mont blanc is via the south side on the nth facing grands mullets route.
As far as i'm aware to date the Benedetti route on the west face has only had 3 complete descents. There was the original, in 79 i think, then 2 full descents last year. Plake's doesn't count as they had to be airlifted out after one of their party got injured & the delay in getting him airlifted off caused them to be dangerously behind schedule. So they decided to bail & take the helicopter out with their injured friend.
I don't mean to be a grouch but just to echo others sentiments this is probably the biggest descent in the MB Grand Massif & is certainly up there with the most serious & extreme even though it may not contain the steepest skiing. Are you sure it's this route that you're intending to ski & who is the guide that will take you down such a route? As, as far as i'm aware Remi lecluse is the only guide in cham who will ski guide on true extreme slopes & even at this it's only with clients he's skied extensively with in the past.
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Tthe Plake/Lecluse route ( Couloir Eccles and Arete Peuterey) was different to the Benedetti.
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, First repeat of the De benedetti route was last year as far as i'm aware.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hi folks, thanks for all the comments.
A lot of good points here.
Firstly, norris is correct. Plake and Lecluse were airlifted off the south side. It was the second time that they called in the rescue chopper. The first for injury, the second as everything was turning to mush. (South facing of course)
The Benedetti route will stay in condition till later in the day as the sun does not hit it until later. Last years attemps didn't even set off till daylight if the youtube video is anything to go by.
Our guide is Jeff Banks (through Chamonix Experience) and we will be skiing/aclimatising with him for 10 days (Hopefully including some other clasic lines) and he will make the final descision on whether we try or not.
Conditions wise. I realise that it is rarely in condition, but I have a really good feeling about it. If not, then we will descend the Mullets route to the North.
I have never seen or even heard of the film 'steep'. Sounds like it would be worth a watch. If you check out my justgiving.com website you can read about how we have been planning this for over ten years. Not sure when steep came out, but we are not doing this because it is fasionable.
cp1000, I will let Morgan know that someone spotted him. He will be pleased as he is well chuffed with the car.
Altitude wise, I will be doing some 3000m plus stuff during the season and taking iron and Vit C supps before heading out. We have four nights booked in huts during our two week stay and the fitness will be good, so I just have to hope that the jelly legs will hold an edge when I ask them to.
Anyway, thanks so far for all the help and comments. I'm off to look at some of the links you guys have included.
John 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skijohn1972 wrote: |
Hi folks, thanks for all the comments.
The Benedetti route will stay in condition till later in the day as the sun does not hit it until later. Last years attemps didn't even set off till daylight if the youtube video is anything to go by. |
Yes it is a west face at 4000 meters altitude. I haven't looked at the video but the group with the splitboard started their descent around 15h30.
They are a very experienced team although I have a feeling Laurent had to be airlifted once on another route in the Aravis having taken too short an abseil rope for a route he did.
I'm surprised the route hasn't been repeated before although at least three groups skied it last year at the end of May, early June but I'm not particuarly interested in these things to be honest.
It is a very steep, exposed route with a crux you may have to abseil over. Volo gives it a 5.4 grading although the people who skied it last year say more like a low 5.3.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've climbed Mont Blanc and descended on a snowboard (via the Bossons ridge - Dome de Gouter - Bossons Glacier).
You MUST acclimatise as well as you possibly can. You will need all of those 10 days and it may well still not be enough. Your guide, obviously will be the best person to sort out your acclimatisation program.
My own fitness situation at the time was a bit odd - I was training very hard for it (marathon training program + hill sprints etc. for lung capacity) but I had broken my back in July and had an enforced 4 months off before doing Mont Blanc the following April, so I was kind of all over the place. In any case, I was pretty fit but acclimatisation doesn't really depend on fitness. We ascended via les 3 Monts from the Cosmiques Refuge. I felt good until the top of Mont Maudit, then utterly terrible until we got back down below about 3,500m. Really, really bad. Like the worst hangover ever. I could suck it up and get on with it when I needed to snowboard, but when we stopped I just wanted to sleep. Daft things with decision-making as well - a screw came loose on my binding and for some reason I decided to ride the next section like that instead of tightening it.
I put a big part of why I felt so bad down to my choice of hydration on the day. I added a load of energy powder (can't remember which brand) to my water bottle, which I hadn't really experimented with before. The result, with the altitude/effort making me feel a bit queasy, was that every time I opened my water bottle my stomach lurched and I felt a bit puky. Hence I didn't get anywhere near enough to drink (or eat) over the course of the day and was pretty badly dehydrated. We missed the last telepherique down from the Midi mid-station and had to ride down until the snow ran out then walk down through the woods to the Mont Blanc tunnel. Walking down in that state over slippy tree roots, I came as close as I ever do to having a proper sense of humour failure.
Seriously hard work at the time, looking back, awesome day.
For what it's worth, I'm really not sure I could have snowboarded close to my technical limits that day. I'd done the Aiguille d'Argentiere as an acclimatisation day, with a descent of the Barbey Couloir in very nasty conditions, but the extra 1000m of height on Mont Blanc really made me feel very bad indeed.
My acclimatisation was something like:
Day 1 - Easy snowboarding day with the Mrs.
Day 2 - Ditto
Day 3 - Vallée Blanche snowboard descent
Day 4 - Hike the Grandes Autannes (2,700m ish), snowboard descent
Day 5 - Hike the Amethystes Glacier to about 3,500m, sleep at Argentiere hut (2,900m)
Day 5 - Hike from Argentiere hut to Aiguille d'Argentiere (3,900m) snowboard descent to valley
Day 6 - Vallée Blanche snowboard descent, last lift up, sleep at Cosmiques
Day 7 - Mont Blanc
Day 8 - Heliboarding! 
I'd like to think it would be miles easier now as I'm much fitter and I live at 1,550m, but I might be kidding myself (went to 3,700m or so a couple of times last summer, dead easy).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nice one John - bon chance! Hope the snow, weather & tea leaves allign for you.
Make sure to take a camera
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| I have never seen or even heard of the film 'steep'. |
Great film! The short 'Bennedeti' section about the West Face is classic.
This is a cracking book for general Mont Blanc advice, and also planning your ascent.
http://www.cordee.co.uk/CCE244.php
Doug.
p.s I stand corrected about the Plake & Lecuse rescue BTW. Had read italian side of Mont Blanc and presumed it was this face. Though its not far away....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thank you very much stevomcd. I can see you put some effort in to your reply. This is the kind of help I was told to expect from you guys.
Cheers Doug, I have had a look at the trailer on youtube and will be getting a copy of that I think. Have you skied the Haggis trap yet this season?
John
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skijohn1972, I went to ski this last year with some friends not long after Andreas &co skied it. We turned back due mainly to a mass of clouds on that side of the hill which was stopping the snow from softening.
Without knowing anything about you & your skiing I would simply echo some of the comments above (& I'm sure you're well aware of this) that this is a v.serious descent. The 2 guys I went to ski this with both had a long list of 5.3 (& some 5.4) descents under their belts and are very strong mountaineers. We were all fit ( though 2 of us really struggled with the altitude as we hadn't done much above 4000 that spring..).
Acclimatisation is key - I have been at 4800 feeling like sh*t, and I have been at 4800 feeling perfect... only difference was what had gone on the week before...
As for the gradings - I'm always a bit wary when guys like Andreas say "it's not so bad", "maybe 5.2"... Maybe it is, in absolute uber-conditions...
When we skied the Italiens on the Casse last year (given 5.4 in a few places) it felt like 5.2, but we had absolute dream conditions with 1.5 feet of soft over a good base. If you skied it in spring snow it would probably feel a grade harder due to the increased exposure of standing on a firm slope. In slightly off conditions it would most likely feel 5.4, and a few people have died trying to ski it. I have looked in from above when it has been completely unskiable (at the height of 'steep' season)... Last year seemed to be a vintage year for steeps, but then there were also a few folks around with the vision to go & look at these things, and sometimes that is all it takes.
With the W Face you're never going to get perfect conditions all the way down due to the height difference. The top is susceptible to wind, lower down you're into the 'oven' of these faces.. As far as I recall the 2 teams last year started early afternoon from a blast up the 3 monts from first bin.
As for number of descents, last years may well be the first repeats, but at the same time it wouldn;t surprise me if it had been done as this is one of those faces that you could easily ski & noone would know unless you told them... In terms of Brits I don't personally know anyone that has done it but it wouldn't surprise me if someone had as there are loads of folk out there quietly picking off lines with no fuss & zero publicity.
In summary: fitness; acclimatisation; conditions; + psyche - steep skiing is a huge headgame - are you ready for this?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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PS, good as Baud's 'Book of certain Death' is, I tend to rely on the Toponeige guides (volopress.net) for accurate grading - some of Bauds grades can seem quite well out (in both directions!)..
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PPS Jim Lee? Phil Ingle? Paul MacLeod?
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Thanks offpisteskiing, again a lot of good information for me.
As mentioned, we are not taking this lightly and will listen to our guide as he has far more local knowledge than either of us.
We have both skied 50Deg+ slopes with serious exsposure in the past. It is just the altitude and conditions that are the main concern.
The varying conditions on such a large vertical descent are something that I have considered (and can see from the youtube videos), but varying conditions are something I can handle.
Do you think spending as many nights in high huts will make a lot of difference? Should we spend as much time at altitude as possible?
i.e is it worth booking a fourth night instead of just three?
I have had a look at your site and see you are based in the 3 valleys. I am in Courchevel 1550 on the 23rd for a week, so perhaps I could pay for a couple of hours guiding and get your honest opinion on this?
Regards John Scott
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
As for the gradings - I'm always a bit wary when guys like Andreas say "it's not so bad", "maybe 5.2"... Maybe it is, in absolute uber-conditions...
When we skied the Italiens on the Casse last year (given 5.4 in a few places) it felt like 5.2, but we had absolute dream conditions with 1.5 feet of soft over a good base. If you skied it in spring snow it would probably feel a grade harder due to the increased exposure of standing on a firm slope. In slightly off conditions it would most likely feel 5.4 |
You are misinterpreting the toponeige system a wee bit. The gradings are for transformed or settled powder snow. So if you think the Italiens is a 5.3 in spring snow you are saying you feel the 5.4 grading is too high (which is another debate). In off conditions it would be more like a 5.5, or just unskiable. The main problem with the route is ice which is why the routes come into season quite late when moist snow falls at altitude and sticks to the ice. Nothing like skiing a steep route to find you have a section of ice in front of you.
On the day you skied the Italiens some friends of mine, two of which only really ski 4.* graded routes skied the north face which is 5.2, so the conditions you found on the Italiens probably reduced the route by 2 grades, not wishing to demean Sylvie and Ben's abilities in any way.
Before anyone on snowheads thinks that is a walk in the park 5.* routes are very very steep even in ideal conditions.
Obviously the Italiens gets a lot of skiing so the grading is probably quite settled and the 5.4 rating applies to the hardest bits of the descent - which is logical. I don't really understand how Baud or Volopress can grade routes without someone on the team having repeated or skied them. Certainly a some of Volo's early grades erred on the high side.
The MB West Face is probably still evolving although Anthony from the splitboard group has a long list of 5.3->5.5s so probably has the references to reliably grade the descent. They skied in ideal conditions. More importantly it is an E4 ratiing, you fall, you die as many people have found to their cost in the Mont Blanc massif.
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| Quote: |
| You are misinterpreting the toponeige system a wee bit. |
Davidof, grading steep ski route will always be subjective
Primarily because
- such descents are totally dependent on conditions.
- the mountains change every winter and are never constant.
- a relatively small number of people are skiing routes at the upper end of the scale on a regular basis.
There are simply so many variables. Not just the quality of snow, but also the amount of snow. Glaciers move, seracs falls, sections bank out and other slopes dont fill unless the wind comes from strange directions. No winter is ever exactly the same.
Many routes, especially 5.x, will only be in condition once every few years. And the effort, and time involved, in skiing something like the West Face of Mont Blanc means most people will only do it once in their lifetime - so any grading system should always be treated with caution...
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| I don't really understand how Baud or Volopress can grade routes without someone on the team having repeated or skied them. |
Well Anseleme Baud is one of perhaps only 10 people in world who could have written that book. Not only does he ski at a level far above most - but he has also dedicated a lifetime to exploration and ski descents in the Chamonix valley. His book does a great job of documenting the vast number of extreme ski mountaineering descents possible in the area, whilst also being very readable.
Interestingly he admits the rules of the game have totally changed in the last 10 years.
Until recent years people simply didn't ski the very steep slopes in powder snow.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 13-01-10 13:11; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
| PPS Jim Lee? Phil Ingle? Paul MacLeod? |
About 10 years ago when i was in Cham Jim, the highlander & Ewan (don't remember his sirname but he was one of the scottish extreme team as they were known then) went to do the arrete du Peuterey but found it wasn't in condition. I never heard of any other attempts by them to go back up there not to say they never tried it again. They did do plenty of cutting edge descents in that period of time. Other than Flingle i've never heard of any other Britons pushing the envelope at that level in Cham, not say no one has come along since the mid noughties.
I would personally suspect the highlander was probably Britains greatest ever skier. Such a shame he died in such tragic circumstances.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Was he the one who died in St Foy?
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No he died in a skydiving/paragliding accident off of the top of the midi. He had gotten into basejumping & had taken to doing a trick with a friend of his where his friend had a tandem paraglider they would paraglide off of the top of the midi with Paul clipped in on some sort of easily detachable rig. About half way across the valley Paul would unclip & skydive down to Cham. Anyway on the day in question one of them slipped as they were launching off of the Midi & the paraglider collapsed, both of them fell to their deaths down the nth face. Was tragic & ironic that someone so extreme (pardon the cliche) & at the top of his game died in such a simple mistake.
To give you an idea of how good a skier he was he once skied the Mallory, the Eugster & the nth face of the col du plan in the same day.
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You know it makes sense.
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I sat next to a guy on Christmas Day in Chamonix who has climbed and descended (on skis) Mont Blanc 4 times. Every chance that, even if he hasn't dropped down the North Face he will know people who have .... he lives just outside of Cham and works in Geneva. I'll try to contact him and, if I do, will point him in your direction.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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frank4short, that is a tragic story indeed. Sounds like he was one hell of a guy.
Zammo, thanks very much, I would appreciate that.
I agree that the grading system is just a guide and that conditions (Hopefully not too many icy patches) can vary the grade up or down by two point. This said, we will just have to assess the conditions at the time and see how it goes.
Thanks again for all the help so far.
John
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Poster: A snowHead
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davidof, I understand the toponeige grading system very well thank you, having used their books for a number of years now..Also, with a fair number of steep descents around the alps & first descents in alaska and greenland to 5.3-ish on many types of snow I am well aware of the challenges of North face routes like the Italiens (and having skied it also helps)...
If you reread my post it pretty much confirms exactly what you say - in good conditions knock a few grades off, in bad conditions don't even think about it (I know a couple of people who have been killed skiing steeps - generally due to misjudging conditions).
Skiing has definitely moved on a bit in the last wee while in that these days people are happy to jump on things in softer snow rather than wait for transformed snow as Haggis Trap mentions, hence the potential grade creep downwards, of which I am very wary...Although a lot of steep descents are getting much more traffic these days it doesn't make them any less serious a prospect.
| Quote: |
| Nothing like skiing a steep route to find you have a section of ice in front of you. |
- Which is why where possible most people I know prefer to climb the route first so you know what is coming at you or at the very least have a good look through binos.. (though with the W face of MB this is not as practicable...)
Anyway, back on topic, skijohn1972 unfortunately I am fully booked for that week at the moment, but if that should change I'll let you know..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thank you offpiste skiing. I will check the forum before I head off next Friday to see if anything has changed.
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- Which is why where possible most people I know prefer to climb the route first so you know what is coming at you
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I would normally climb my routes first as you say and it is possible to do this of course from the Italian side, but due to the risk of Serac collapse etc I think we will be trying to minimize our time on the face.
To be perfectly honest, the climb is not of much interest to me and I would gladly get dropped off by chopper and climb the last part of the Italian route to save energy supplies if we could afford it but the budget is already too high.
Anyone know of the cheapest heli rides in the area for this kind of drop if the weather was perfect?
John
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thank you offpiste skiing. I will check the forum before I head off next Friday to see if anything has changed.
| Quote: |
- Which is why where possible most people I know prefer to climb the route first so you know what is coming at you
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I would normally climb my routes first as you say and it is possible to do this of course from the Italian side, but due to the risk of Serac collapse etc I think we will be trying to minimize our time on the face.
To be perfectly honest, the climb is not of much interest to me and I would gladly get dropped off by chopper and climb the last part of the Italian route to save energy supplies if we could afford it but the budget is already too high.
Anyone know of the cheapest heli rides in the area for this kind of drop if the weather was perfect?
John
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
About 10 years ago when i was in Cham Jim, the highlander & Ewan (don't remember his sirname but he was one of the scottish extreme team
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Ewan Moffat. We bumped into Ewan and Jim Lee last spring on the north face of Ben Nevis - they were climbing up to ski Tower Gully while we were coming down having skied one of the other gullies. They were both quite modest about their achievements - I think Jim's skied the North Face of the Aiguille du Midi a few times and has a pic in the latest Ski and Board mag.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Fishwins wrote: |
| They were both quite modest about their achievements - I think Jim's skied the North Face of the Aiguille du Midi a few times and has a pic in the latest Ski and Board mag. |
They both have numerous times. Ewan once famously, at least amongst people in the know at the time, dropped a ski never to be seen again at the abseil on the Mallory. He preceded to ski the exit couloir, which is at least 45 degrees if not steeper, & back to the mid station on one ski. Oh & he was flying solo the whole time. Ewan was well known for skiing really hard stuff on his own, balls of steel that man has.
All 3 of them were/have always been quite self effacing. If you met any of them in a bar & you happened to know one or all of them had done something big or special you'd have to drag it out of them. McLeod was once offered a sponsorship deal by Salomon. He turned them down by telling them they made sh*te skis & that he'd never voluntarily ski on them no matter what deal they were offering him. Don't think he ever got offered any other sponsorship deals after that.
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skijohn1972, what happened in the end? Conditions were great in May so hopefully you were able to make an attempt....
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BobinCH, There is an update on his 'Just Giving' page (see link in sig line)
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Stephane Shaw has skied this line. He's Scottish or at least some part of him is Scottish. He skied it on teles.
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