 Poster: A snowHead
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7 CHF for a tip would be quite a lot anyway, most people would round it up to 105chf. 
Comparing prices in Laax last year to Les Arcs this year, I'd say the two were much of a muchness. As for ski experience, though Flims/Laax has a lot more surface lifts (which many beginners didn't like - though I have no problem with them), the only advantage Les Arcs had was that it was bigger ( a reasonable advantage in many people's eyes). Laax did have the nice touch of indicating traverses where boarders or slow skiers have to walk. I'd rate the two places and holidays about even and would happily recommend both - though some more advanced skiers may prefer Les Arcs for its terrain, I don't know I wasn't looking at off-piste last year.
Of course, I could use both holidays to thoroughly recommend both countries for skiing holidays, but as that would be stupid, I'll just point out that maybe people should decide by resort and not by country.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Murdoch, well my Swiss restaurant sample of 1 is probably not statistically valid 
Mind you coffee is better value in CH coz a Swiss coffee (1.75 Euro) is the same as a French double (3+ Euros)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| hibernia wrote: |
| Nick Zotov - you probably were unluckly in your choice of hotel, but for a three star that standard seems deplorably bad. It would be useful if you would let us know which one it was. |
The problem has now been sorted through the TO (which was the SCGB). The group has received what I think is a reasonable rebate. The chef has been changed. The club will be monitoring through the rep to ensure that meal (a fortnightly menu put in place with a nightly four-course dinner of the same calibre as the downstairs restaurant) does indeed match the downstairs restaurant for quality.
So the owner was upset and has reacted positively. As the food problem appears to have been sorted, I think all should now be well. In fact, the hotel had excellent, spacious accommodation - and that went for the single rooms, too. It should now be a great place to stay in.
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Welcome back DG, how was Wengen? (sorry wrong thread) 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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from Wengen!!!!!!!!
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We are typical intermediate skiers. Quite happy pottering around on piste and sometimes getting brave and doing the easy black, and going once a year for a 7 day hloiday skiing from 9.00 to 4.00 every day whatever the weather!
Weve done Verbier, Chateau Doeux and its valley Gstaad etc (connected by train not lift!)
Since then we have only gone to the 3 valleys.
Why?
Better connected, snow sure (VT)
Larger connected by piste/lift ski areas
NO T Bars !! (My wife simply refuses to go on a T Bar due to falling off one badly in BKK Austria.)
Easy to drive to.
Food, you can eat cheaply in France!
Newer more modern lifts. (I know the Chateaux D. cable car has been replaced but it must have been 50+ years old before it was rebuilt.)
Hotel standards vary through out any resort/country (Closer to home compare 3star Hotels in Bournemouth!!)
Go back to Switzerland, Yes I would to Verbier but having read a post above maybe not!
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boredsurfin, good points and not without justification.
But I don't know what else you'd expect from Chateau Doeux really, I'm staggered that some UK tour operators go there. It's tiny, has an old lift infrastructure and not much of a snow record. It's down the road from where I live and one of several small stations in the valley and it's not even the best, biggest or best snow record of them. There's no shortage of similar stations in France or Austria.
The point you raise, if I can re-phrase this, is that a lot of Swiss stations don't offer the same "experience" as, for example, the 3V, Tignes, Les Arcs etc. It's got to be said a lot of French stations don't either of course. Verbier, Hte Nendaz, Crans Montanna etc all offer that experience.
But, more to the point, is it something everyone wants? I certainly don't and I'm not alone in that.
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I've not been to the 3Vs yet so I can't comment on them, but I have to say that comparing Zermatt to Espace Killy, overall the skiing is better in Espace Killy, but the overall whole experience is better in Zermatt.
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Kramer, I tend to agree. This is all new to me in many ways, it wasn't until I lived in Germany that skied in Austria at all and that was an eye-opener compared to France for standards of accommodation and all round experience. It was even later still that I started to ski in Switzerland, an experience I found so good we now live here  In fact, we’re selling our apartments in France to be fully based here, because, as you say, the overall experience is just better.
It's new to me though, for years I'd only skied in France and shared some of the pre-conceptions people have mentioned above.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ise, I Like small resorts. I stayed in Rougemont a few years ago, had good skiing, a friendly welcome, and a real village feeling Quote "Ah your's is the funny little english car" - that from the ski hire shop. Word gets around. And I thought that the gondola was a VERY steep ride. Stayed b+b in a carpenters house beside the road to Gstaad. Skied Gstaad/Rougemont/ChateauD/Schonreid. Plenty on offer and a good range:sH:
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Snowbunny, We 'did' Rougemont when at Chateaux D. That Gondola has too be one of the steepest and closes to the cliff face I have ever seen let alone ridden! When we were there underneath was a mogul field that put the 'Swiss Wall' to shame. We did promise to go back and Ski it one day, somewhen maybe.......
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Hi we've just come back from a 2 week trip to Lauterbrunun and I was impressed by the efficiency of the Swiss and the good value and low volume of skiers made it a pleasure. We had little queing and good facilities. Any criticisum of the food should be tempered with an understanding of Swiss culture. They traditionally needed high energy meals that used locally produced products. Hence the lamentable lack of variety in Swiss food. Brot, Kase, Wurst, Kartoffel unt Zwieble. We however loved the honesty, efficiency and openess of the Swiss and will return.
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You know it makes sense.
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Based on the 10-country skiing experience I would go to Switzerland because the resorts are neater, cleaner, people are more polite and with less people than the major French mega resorts. For skiers only skiing once a year and looking for the best combination, value for money and size of the domain then Switzerland will not feature high up in the priority list.
Swiss resorts are also more buiness like and aren't very beginner friendly, at least that is my impression as in their grading blue is easy and red is intermediate. Almost everybody going to a Swiss resort is ecpected to be able to ski. Red slopes are the norm and the Swiss do not seem to make any attempt to make their slopes easier for the foreign skiers. It is pretty much a take-it-or-leave-it atitude. The Swiss resorts are not here for your money or to rip you off. It is a civilised to enjoy skiing and has a degree of sophistication in it too. Skiing is a part of their daily life even if doing it in the weekends. It isn't the place for people coming once a year looking for excitement, loads of booze and noisy night life.
Due to the lack of system accommodations built for the mass market the Swiss resorts are invariably scenic too. I think skiers should go to Swiss resorts for the love of their characteristic. It is pointless to evaluate the Swiss skiing experience based on rules drawn up for the French resorts. If skiers want something in between the Swiss and the French then the Austrian resorts will fit in very well.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Too many old-fashioned T-bars still in Swiss resorts for my liking and not enough care and attention to their pistes ie irregular pisting; also they still don't put nets up on narrow lanes with sheer edges. Complacency is the word (but maybe now they've woken up??) Ive skied in Zermatt and Flims on more than one occasion and whilst I love their mountain restaurants (bit pricey though) and the atmosphere in the villages I don't think I'll be going back until the above has changed. The railway system is great though.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowbunny wrote: |
| ise, I Like small resorts. I stayed in Rougemont a few years ago, had good skiing, a friendly welcome, and a real village feeling Quote "Ah your's is the funny little english car" - that from the ski hire shop. Word gets around. And I thought that the gondola was a VERY steep ride. Stayed b+b in a carpenters house beside the road to Gstaad. Skied Gstaad/Rougemont/ChateauD/Schonreid. Plenty on offer and a good range:sH: |
I like them as well, but I live there But, you know ChateauD, doesn't it seem an odd place for tour companies to go to?
Some photos of Rougemont if you're interested.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fossil wrote: |
| Any criticisum of the food should be tempered with an understanding of Swiss culture. They traditionally needed high energy meals that used locally produced products. Hence the lamentable lack of variety in Swiss food. Brot, Kase, Wurst, Kartoffel unt Zwieble. We however loved the honesty, efficiency and openess of the Swiss and will return. |
err. quite .. are you sure you understand Swiss culture though? That's Swiss-German and Bernois at that, it's not what we dine on in the Romande at all.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ise, I'd guess that 99% of British people have no concept of the huge variety of culture in Switzerland especially where food is concerned
In the Bernese Oberland a typical mountain restaurant will have a selection of 2 or 3 soups each day, several meat dishes ranging from sausage (veal or pork sausage) and chips or rossti, to a nice steak, several salads will also be on offer as may a pasta dish or two, the better restaurants may well have regional dishes such as air diried meats and cheeses (good with a bottle of wine) and simpler restaurants might only have soup and say wurst and rosti at a reasonable cost.
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ise, Nice pics of Rougemont, ta very much-reminds me of what a pleasant place it is. Memories of that terrace at the Videmanette (spelling?). The snow was better for you. You are very fortunate to have areas like this in your neighbourhood. I agree with you that it would not be easy for package tour ops or their guests, but it is a good choice if you have wheels. I am unsure which companies are going there now..
Admin can we have a green with envy snowhead emoticon please?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You are quite right and I apologise for my ignorance. # weeks in the resorts isnt time to make such a broad statement. I hold by what I said about the lack of variety in the Bernese Oberland however as I come from Perth Australia and Im used to a bewildering array of food from all over the world.
The lift system in Wengen etc is a bit dated and the piste management slack even when compared to the Serbian resorts which have fewer resources.
But the Swiss have a refreshing attitude to 'common sense' that implies that if you are old enough to call yourself an adult then you should have the sense not to put yourself at risk Iits up to you to make that judgement as a 'grown up'.
The Australian govt would prefer to make all those grown up type decisions for you and we are over legislated as a result. Anyway enough of the politics, do you think that skiing is in danger of being 'Macdonaldized'???
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| fossil wrote: |
| Anyway enough of the politics, do you think that skiing is in danger of being 'Macdonaldized'??? |
Exactly, that's the choice isn't it? And that's the "crisis" for Swiss skiing if a crisis exists at all.
The mega-resorts in France have their appeal, places like Les Arcs or the Espace Killy, I'm certainly looking forward to being there at the end of the season, but I find them unbearable at busier times.
There's been some posts here recently, from one person in particular, that seem to articulate what the mass market wants pretty well, and the message seems be quantity, the more runs the better. It's easy (very, very easy ) to mock but we'd be deluding ourselves if we didn't recognise the bulk of skiers on the slopes are like this. The profile's pretty clear, it's some or all of this: they ski one or two weeks each year, they're on package tours, are price sensitive, buy hardware not lessons, lack fitness and/or a general comfort level on skis so can't deal with surface lifts or even short flatter sections, expect 100's of km of blue/red runs even if half of them are 10m apart & parallel, mostly aren't snowheads , expect perfectly groomed slopes with consistent gradients and, most importantly, outnumber us about 100 to 1. Also they don't go to Switzerland much and probably not Austria either.
The Swiss simply don't compete in this market place. In fact, they don't really do the whole "intermediate/advanced" skier thing as the UK mass market perceives it, they do beginner and people who can actually ski and nothing much in the middle. For example, there's a casual attitude to things like piste signing and grading in a lot of the stations here as some people have noted above, it's because majority of us really don't care what colour the piste is or if they've prepared it either really.
'Macdonaldized' has it in a nutshell, we use it as a derogatory term but you can't argue there's not a demand for it.
Of course, the Berneses Oberland has a staggering array of food, there's a different cheese in each valley
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I thought Verbier looked after its pistes well - but also had the sense to leave mogul fields. They had things about right, IMHO.
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ise,
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there's a different cheese in each valley
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Only one in each valley ? And there was I thinking that it seems to be a slightly different cheese for every cowshed 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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D G Orf, the music being played in the cowshed in Laax town centre was certainly of a slightly different cheese to that you might expect.
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Chris Reed,
The French resort anxious to open immediately after a big dump may be after your money whereas a Swiss takes time to do the same because safety is taken more seriously. Also Verbier is very big for off piste and may warrant a longer check. I didn't find Verbier as bad as your experience. Things in Switzerland seldom give good value for money because they are all expensive but are supposingly good quality too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ive been blatently and shamelessly shortchanged by a waitress in Adelboden and shortchanged by their claim to open pre christmas. Despite oceans of snow one gondola, two chairlifts, full liftpass price - when the gondola broke get the bus to the other chair.
In Wengen (1998) I picked up a packet of crisps in a supermarket, then saw the price at nearly £3 and put them back.
Ive paid £3 for a plate of chips and another £3 for a bottle of coke in Tignes (nearly 10 years ago)
£6 for a pint of Eurofizz in Meribel 1994.
Maybe Im a tight Yorkshireman, but none of this seems necessary.
Austria for me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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T-Dub, I very much doubt the £3 for a packet of crisps in either Wengen Supermarket, I myself bought a large packet of crisps in there on Monday this week and it was under 2 CHf even at the local bar there they only charge 2.20 Chf of about £1, I'd anticipate paying about £2 for a bottle of coke or similar refreshment in a mountain restaurant in the Bernese Oberland
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Sorry to have to say it again BUT if we had mountains in the UK,
How much would a pint of beer and a packet of crisps cost?
I imagine Motorway Service area prices plus a service charge for getting the beer up a mountain with no roads?
Shall we say £8.00 the beer and £2.00 the crisps?
When the logistics are taken into account is Mountain beer (French Or Swiss) an understandable price?
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You know it makes sense.
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boredsurfin, I agree, the UK is far more expensive in a like for like situation
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| T-Dub, I very much doubt the £3 for a packet of crisps in either Wengen Supermarket, |
Honest Injun! It was the Co-op opposite the train station.
Stayed in the Brunner, ok but a bit threadbare and not quite the cleanliness and efficiency that the myth propounds.
Agree with the theory that Swissys dont really care what anyone thinks, if you dont come, so be it.
That said, to Zermatt in 3 weeks, so Ill do the crisps audit again.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| D G Orf wrote: |
ise, I'd guess that 99% of British people have no concept of the huge variety of culture in Switzerland especially where food is concerned
In the Bernese Oberland a typical mountain restaurant will have a selection of 2 or 3 soups each day.... |
...but pretty thin pickings for vegetarians (to say nothing of vegans...but they get pretty poor service most places))? A bit further east (in Klosters) the week before last, three out of the six lunch stops had yes, 2 or 3 soups, but nothing without dead animal in it (and I made a point of not asking about the kind of stock used in the vegetable soups)! Two days in the week the only thing I could eat on the menu was bread and cheese - not a single vegetarian hot dish. Savoie is not exactly a vegetarian's paradise, but nowhere near that bad. I also felt that the mountain restaurants were staggeringly expensive, but can't really quote details as I try not to think about the prices when I'm up there in case I scare myself too much. The previous week in Grimentz struck me as a bit better on both counts - so the French influence does seem to extend that way a bit.
I've skied mostly in France, but been for a few weeks in Swizzie in the last couple of years. It's very noticable that there is a far higher proprtion of button and t-bar lifts in Swizzie than in France. Klosters certainly looks as if it could do with a bit more investment. Madrisa has not a single chairlift, and probably the slowest bubble I've ever been in. The queues at the bottom of Gotchna and Madrisa at 9:15 took about 45 minutes to get through (although the simple solution was to get there at 8:30 when you could just about walk straight on). Grimentz and St Luc/Chandolin was also mostly buttons and tees (2chs vs 8 and 11 buttons/tees in each resort respectively, but possibly expected as smaller resorts), although they've clearly put a big 6-main chair in Grimentz pretty recently. I'm not really complaining too much though as we got some great skiing (particularly when we walked or skinned a bit away from the main drags). I was quite surprised though, given the number of tees, how many boarders there seemed to be around; although very few of them seemed to be whingeing Brits.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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T-Dub, the only thing in the crisp section that might have cost £3 would be the twin packs of pringles, but they're not exactly cheap here either
As far as vegetarian dishes go I will admit they are limited especially up on the mountains, however they are getting better, this year I saw several items in vegetarian sections of mountain menus though they did tend to be pasta dishes
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think Switzerland should stay just as it is, Austria too for that matter...
When I go skiing the whole experience is (almost) just as important as the quality/quantity of runs, maybe its a girlie thing, I don't know. My idea of holiday hell is some purpose-built, concrete jungle eyesore, masquerading as a 'quality' resort. I want to know I'm in the Alps (wooden chalets, cowbells, etc.), I don't want to eat McDonalds, or chips with everything. I, at least, want the chance to sample some local culture. I like picturesque, traditional villages and that's where, IN MY OPINION, the Swiss and the Austrians' have it licked!!!
If you don't mind the old Blackpool in the sun/snow type mass tourism destinations, fine, go for the cheapest option every time & stay in some shoe-box sized room which is laughingly described as an apartment (I've made that mistake in the past - NEVER, ever again!!) - France would seem to be the biggest culprit in this regard. But, if you want a quality holiday experience, I'd go for Switzerland or Austria every time, in fact I'd live there if I could!!
Last month in Austria we were left to lock up the bar in our hotel on 3 separate occasions during our week-long stay, as the barman finished around 11pm. Where else would you get trust like that? Not at home that's for sure. It's this kind of hospitality that put Switzerland & Austria streets ahead in my opinion. I've never found either to be vastly overpriced. As someone else mentioned earlier, go where the locals go, but this is true for any destination abroad.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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TC - you said it all and eloquently
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The French mega resorts are not really that bad. I am still in graduate school, so price matters to me. I can't afford more than one week of skiing, so when i go i care only about skiing. In fact this year i am going to UCPA which is a chain of french hostels that offer a pachage deal: dormitory accomodation, full board (but self service), ski school and equipment rental: the cheapest way to enjoy the most skiing. Restaurants? when i'm older and richer. Bars? we have those at home, too!
One more thing: nowadays i can enjoy going off-piste and i can make the most out of a smaller resort, but a few years ago, as an intermediate, skiing hard all day long i'd run out of interesting runs after 3 day in a smaller resort.
So, i don't see Les Menuires and La Plagne as "McDonalds" but rather as a Subaru WRX - cheap , basic and fun. If i had more money, sure a Mercedes AMG would be nice (right now i actually drive an old Punto, as anything more expensive would mean no skiiing!)
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| Quote: |
| ...but pretty thin pickings for vegetarians (to say nothing of vegans...but they get pretty poor service most places))? A bit further east (in Klosters) the week before last, three out of the six lunch stops had yes, 2 or 3 soups, but nothing without dead animal in it (and I made a point of not asking about the kind of stock used in the vegetable soups)! Two days in the week the only thing I could eat on the menu was bread and cheese - not a single vegetarian hot dish. Savoie is not exactly a vegetarian's paradise, but nowhere near that bad. I also felt that the mountain restaurants were staggeringly expensive, but can't really quote details as I try not to think about the prices when I'm up there in case I scare myself too much. The previous week in Grimentz struck me as a bit better on both counts - so the French influence does seem to extend that way a bit. |
Interesting as I've found that in Switzerland it's generally been far, far easier than in France to get vegetraian meals. Several times in France I've ordered vegetable soup after asking wehther it had meat in it - to a negative reply. When it arrives it has ham in it, when this is pointed out, the reply is that that is only for flavouring 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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TC,
Well said.
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skanky, as an ex-vegi I agree with you Switzerland is miles ahead of France. Nonetheless, living in Switzerland did cure me of vegetarianism
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FAQ
