 Poster: A snowHead
|
With local demand for skiing on the slide, and prices one of the issues, Swiss hoteliers are debating how to bring people back to the slopes. One proposal is to sell ski trips in the same way as low-cost air tickets - cheaper accommodation and lift tickets, at times of weaker demand.
SwissInfo. reports.
Do you ski in Switzerland? Do you avoid Switzerland? Why?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 6-02-05 21:16; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I do ski in Switzerland and found their resorts usually very satisfying, high standard, clean, well maintained, not crowded, reliable and with friendly people. However I haven't skied them as often as the French resorts because they are not known to be large and tend to be rather fragmented.
In my recent Christmas/New year trip to French Tarentaise I stayed 3 days first in Monthey because the ferry didn't operate at the day I wanted to travel and I also took the opportunity to try the Swiss side of Porte Du Soleil.
I can swear that my wife and I were the only guests staying at the hotel, which is next to the Monthey train station, as I never saw any other soul for the breakfast. In fact the bartender, who also laid out the breakfast, asked me if I could postpone my breakfast by half an hour so that he could sleep longer in Christmas eve. We couldn't find a restaurant open in whole of Monthey that night and even all the restaurant in the motorway services closed by the time we finished skiing. Eating a couple of dry sandwiches and pops was our memorable dinner in 2004 Christmas eve.
The Swiss side of Porte Du Soleil has never caught my attention before. I heard from Snowheads about Les Gets, Morzine and Avoriaz but nobody talk about Champery, Morgins or Champoussin. The Swiss side is definitely quieter as I could park anywhere I wanted.
From observation the Swiss seem to develop their resorts for their skiers mainly and do not go big to turn them into an industry. However I do found places like Verbier, Crans Montana and the Jungrau resorts in Grindelwald and Murren well attended.
It is a shame if they couldn't compete commercially and squeezed out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
The article is about the inability to get the native Swiss people skiing in their own country rather than to encourage more foreigners to ski there. IMO I do not think, when exchange rates are taken into account, that Switzerland is appreciably more expensive than say France or Austria. In then past - going back more than 5 to 10 years you could agrue ethat Switzerland was expensive. However, sterling has strengthened agains the Swiss franc in the last few years. Yes of course, if you go to a top resort like Zermat or St. Moritz you can expect to pay top whack. But it will be on the same level, or perhaps lower, than say a top French resort like Val D'Isere.
It is a generalisation to say Switzerland is more expensive than other Alpine countries. There are some really fantastic smaller resorts with prices to match and with no diminuition in the quality of service., spectacular scenery, impressive slopes, world's best ( IMO ) mountain restaurants, traditional mountain villages and trains that run like clockwork  .
Switzerland has positioned itself in the mid to upper market. I do not think its cost base ( similar to the other alpine countries ) can match countries like Bulgaria and Romania, but that is a different market ( beginners/low budget ). Prices in the alpine countries will always be higher than the east european countries ( or until they catch up, if ever ). The price at which any product is sold is determined by not only demand but supply and the cost of materials, labour and land ( on which the chalets are built ).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Looks like a load of nonsense to me. Car parks at local stations were full this weekend and the Valais was about stationary yesterday with people going there.
It's nonsense in some crucial points. It's news to me the cantons stopped school ski trips, they still go round here regardless who's paying.
I'd think 38% of people going on a ski holiday in Switzerland was pretty impressive, not only is it more than most countries it's pretty amazing when you consider all of us live close enough to go for the day, if you could ski every weekend and every bank holiday would you take a ski holiday? A lot of people wouldn't, they'd go to the Canaries or something.
80% of 14-yr olds in urban areas haven't skied? For a start, exactly what's an urban area in Switzerland, it isn't Fribourg the canton capital of the canton I live in, it's about the size of small UK town and the local schools ski. It's not Neuchatel the canton capital of the canton I work in, again it's small and the local schools ski. It's not Bern either for the same reasons. Don't ski? Do they sledge, snowshoe, blade or board?
It's just a conceit of people like snowheads that skiing's all that keeps mountain villages going. Many, many people here visit the mountains here and don't ski and good luck to them. About 30% of the people out at the local hill today weren't skiing or boarding. Some of the villages here have whole lifts dedicated to non-skiers and hills reserved for sledders. Some stations get more custom for their mountain baths than for the ski lifts. All of this is before we consider summer business for which the French stations would kill for.
This is just Swiss angst, it happens in all walks of life. From time to time some "businessman" decides it would be more efficient if our banks were outsourced to India to improve customer service, or we had lower wages, or we turned Zermatt into Andorra, or we made things in the supermarket cheaper by allowing more intensive farming, or we made the trains more efficient and the list goes on and on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
| his is just Swiss angst, it happens in all walks of life. From time to time some "businessman" decides it would be more efficient if our banks were outsourced to India to improve customer service, or we had lower wages, or we turned Zermatt into Andorra, or we made things in the supermarket cheaper by allowing more intensive farming, or we made the trains more efficient and the list goes on and on. |
Sounds like the UK, too. 
I'd recommend anyone who has to go at half-term to go to Switzerland - we went last year and it was definitely one of less crowded weeks we had (until this year in Les Arcs....in January).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skanky - don't go telling everyone, will you
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
hibernia, 
sorry
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Like Ise,Skanky, & Hibernia we love Switzerland too. I have always been mystified why the great British ski-ing public have not re-discovered Switzerland in recent years, particularly as the Swiss Franc in real terms is not as bullish as it was about 10 years ago.
Switzerland has always had this expensive price tag attached to it in British eyes, but it is not really true any more. Personally I have always found the Swiss very friendly, open, and honest. I cannot ever remember being ripped off in Switzerland and that's more than I can say about a few of their neighbouring ski-ing nations - no names mentioned.
There are so many small excellent small ski resorts in the country which are just not on the British ski map, like St. Luc, Grimentz, and Bettmeralp for example, but unlike Austria where many small archetypal Ski villages are already well known to the British market such as Alpbach, Fieberbrunn,and Serfaus etc.
Perhaps it's something in the Swiss "psyche" that their own contentment with their lot means, that with money in the bank (Swiss ones of course!) that they have not bothered to give a higher profile to marketing themselves and their nation in recent times.
To the participants of this thread, myself included, we are happy to ski Switzerland without the benefit of the British ski-ing masses, I suspect!! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have always found Swiss resorts to be cleaner, friendlier and better maintained than any french or austrian resort...there is a certain quaintness that you just don't find in resorts such as say Val D'Isere...
...however, I do think the skiing is much more expansive in Val rather than the more limited skiing in some of the Swiss resorts...but i have never found it too expensive in Switzerland in fact the last time I went, I found it hard to spend all the spending money I had taken! Whereas in Val D'Isere my bank account got dangerously low!
If you want expensive, come and live in Jersey as I'm sure fellow snowhead ChrisBrookes would agree!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| DAVID SNELL wrote: |
Perhaps it's something in the Swiss "psyche" that their own contentment with their lot means, that with money in the bank (Swiss ones of course!) that they have not bothered to give a higher profile to marketing themselves and their nation in recent times.
|
That's quite true, I suspect. People are very welcoming and service is an ethic in a way it is in no other country. But, at the same time, by and large, most Swiss don't care if people come or not. And that's fine, we need a real economy not some faux tourist Disneyland nonsense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
I think the Swiss are just like the Noreigian and the Swede not wanting to make an industry out of their skiing resorts. For that reason their resorts are modest in size, well maintained and not over-commercialised.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just like Verbier?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
ise, good point about the locals not needing to go on a holiday or saving their holidays for the summer. At weekends you can chose where and when to go based on weather forecasts. Beats spending loads of money in advance and hoping you don't get a week of bare pistes or zero visiibility.
In general Switzerland is more expensive but that buys consistent quality and better service. IME (and I have never visited Zermat or Verbier) prices in Switzerland have very little variation between cities or mountain restaurants. I have certainly never experienced a rip-off factor like that in the 3 valleys.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Verbier is big by the Swiss standard especially if one consider the whole Ski Ama even they are not fully linked. The biggest could be Portes du Soleil but the satellite resorts are again fragmented and not fully linked by chairlifts or runs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
If you want expensive, come and live in Jersey as I'm sure fellow snowhead ChrisBrookes would agree!!!
|
Inga, so true
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
I have certainly never experienced a rip-off factor like that in the 3 valleys.
|
True. The Swiss don't go in for blatant exploitation. Standards of food are usually great.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I've been skiing in Wengen for 15 years now. Never missed a season, but have been tempted by misguided friends to try the odd week or two in France, Canada, Austria. Switzerland is expensive, but less so than France in my experience. However, the Swiss seen to have a monopoly on value for money that the other Alpine nations seem unable or loathe to compete with.
It might be expensive, but it's worth it. The French in particular seem to regard Dick Turpin's tactics as a valid method of generating income. The Swiss should worry less. If, in fact, they are worried at all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| ise wrote: |
It's nonsense in some crucial points. It's news to me the cantons stopped school ski trips, they still go round here regardless who's paying.
|
In fact the road to the office today was full of coaches taking the schools skiing, I counted 12 coming from Neuchatel on my way over here in just 20 minutes. That was going from NE towards the my way, the Alpes or pre-Alpes. They'll have been a load going into the Jura as well.
For that matter there was a lot of private cars with skis on the roof, looked like I was about the only person in the Canton going to work 
Likewise general interest in skiing is high, the local radio station (RTN) had only skiing for the sports reports and the local paper has Bodie Miller on the front page and Janica Kostelić on the front of the sports section.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| ise wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
It's nonsense in some crucial points. It's news to me the cantons stopped school ski trips, they still go round here regardless who's paying.
|
In fact the road to the office today was full of coaches taking the schools skiing |
doh, should have spotted that obvious error in the article. The "cantons" stopped school skiing? Which cantons? Here (NE) the canton part pays for it, the local schools will be away for a week and parents contribute 250chf which looks a bargain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I normally enjoy skiing in Switzeralnd. But last week in Verbier I was dismayed by the half-board evening meals at our 3 star hotel. The accommodation was good, the snow brilliant. But the food was appalling. I could have done better with some Tesco Value tins. MacDonald’s would have been a gourmet delight in comparison. Despite strong efforts in our group to get this sorted, many on the party couldn't face the final dinner, and did not eat it. There was a lot of acrimony, and it really did spoil the enjoyment of the holiday. First time I have felt let down in that country. But it obviously can happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nick Zotov, maybe you should name and shame this hotel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nick Zotov, sounds on a par with what I thought of Haute Nendaz a couple of weeks back. It's part and parcel of appealing to the mass market and I'll not be skiing the 4V much again for that reason. The hotel we used in Nendaz was supposedly three star and was appalling, we only had breakfast there but it was shockingly bad, I've had better at Formula 1 hotels in fact. The next weekend we stayed at a B&B in Grimentz for 30% less that was about 500% better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| telford_mike wrote: |
I've been skiing in Wengen for 15 years now. Never missed a season, but have been tempted by misguided friends to try the odd week or two in France, Canada, Austria. Switzerland is expensive, but less so than France in my experience. However, the Swiss seen to have a monopoly on value for money that the other Alpine nations seem unable or loathe to compete with.
It might be expensive, but it's worth it. The French in particular seem to regard Dick Turpin's tactics as a valid method of generating income. The Swiss should worry less. If, in fact, they are worried at all. |
Hardly sufficient research to make sweeping generalisations about French costs. It is perfectly feasible to have a value for money break in the French resorts, but most tourists ignore the rules, and end up being exploited as a result. Comparing like with like, I doubt that the cost of living for a resident is higher in France than Switzerland.
Obvious money-saving tips for France ...
- If you're driving to a French resort, stock up with essentials in the local hypermarket down in the valley - much cheaper than in the UK. In the resort itself the minimarts will be dearer but still good value. One reason why DIY self-catering holidays really can pay.
- Forget the ski in/ski out logic for once. Plenty of lower villages/valley towns have excellent links to the main resort, and bars/restaurants are often great value.
- Spot the bars where the locals, eg ESF instructors, drink. They'll be much cheaper than the tourist traps. Same applies to the restaurants.
- The likes of Tignes/Val/3V are notoriously expensive. If you choose to go there, and don't find out from the locals where the best value haunts are, it's your wallet's funeral.
- Leave the lemmings to it for once and try some of the lesser known French resorts. There are hundreds of them that most people haven't even heard of. Prices are lower.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| PG wrote: |
Hardly sufficient research to make sweeping generalisations about French costs. It is perfectly feasible to have a value for money break in the French resorts, but most tourists ignore the rules, and end up being exploited as a result. |
How impressed were you with that flat in Flaine ? That's the reality for a lot of people trying to get places in France. Last time I was in Tignes I actually stayed in a decent hotel, that's twice in 15 years in the Espace Killy I've found somewhere that's not a complete toilet charging astronomic amounts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Costwise Flaine was ok, given the dates and the fact that it was a rental for part of the week only, booked the day before. Quality, another matter. I've stayed in dozens of apartments around the resorts and it was easily the worst. As for Espace Killy it charges on reputation - as long as the demand is there rates will remain high. You pay for convenience and proximity to what is one of the best ski areas in the world. That said, I stayed at the Refuge in Le Lac last year and thought is was reasonable value, all things considered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
You can find good deals even in the higher, largely purpose-built French resorts. Low season in a 2*, older but well appointed and very clean family run Hotel la Vanoise in Plan Peisey (on the edge of Les Arcs) was 58 Euros per night Half Board. Not bad for ski-in / ski-out and right next to the Vanoise Express and the 6 man chair taking you up into the rest of the Les Arcs complex.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 7-02-05 12:30; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It appears that there are two ways of looking at the cost of skiing in Switzerland; as a local staying off the resort or as a tourist staying inside the resort. The rip-off applies only to those are skiing in & out and France may have a bigger share of it than the others.
Mobile skiers able to move around with own transport can avoid the in-resort rip-off and can opt for choices giving value for money.
Apart from the distortion by the rip-off the cost of living is factually lower in France than in Switzerland.
PG is renting flats to Snowheads at Swiss standard in Bourg St Maurice at bargain basement price (15 Euro per head per night self catering studio flat) and is naturally appalled by the standard he enountered by other French hoteliers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Having just returned from a week in an Austrian hotel charging 28Euros pppn for HALF BOARD, in a small village with approximately 500 ski lifts within a 30min drive, I find the argument whether France or Switzerland is more expensive rather irrelevant! Austria completely slaughters the other major alpine countries for value for money, and you get exactly the same sort of cleanliness & efficiency as in Switzerland, with more friendly locals than either France or Switzerland.
By the way, the food is great, equal to 3* hotels (~100Euros pppn) I've stayed in at Interlaken, Wengen and Alpe d'Huez, it snowed 3 ft while we were there, and no I'm not telling you where it is, or they might put the prices up....
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
Just back from Zermatt, which was only the 2nd time I'd skied in Switzerland. The first was about 10 years ago in Verbier and it seemed very expensive then. This time, much less so, I think the French resorts (well 3V and Espace Killy anyway) have caught up.
Accom in a 3* hotel (the BellaVista, I can heartily recommend it, btw) was £50 pppn in a double room, B&B (with a priceless Matterhorn view, pics to follow). The people were great, friendly without any over the top in your faceness if you know what I mean.
Only downside compared with the big French ski stations for me was the lack of convenient linking of the ski area. Not a big drawback, you just have to plan where you're going to go a bit more carefully.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Yup, brian, I've had excellent value and service at Zermatt - and Saas Fee. I was really surprised at the Verbier hotel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Nick Zotov - you probably were unluckly in your choice of hotel, but for a three star that standard seems deplorably bad. It would be useful if you would let us know which one it was.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
QUOTE, "The director of the Cable Car Association, Peter Vollmer, disagrees that passes are too expensive. He says a better solution would be for lift companies to offer more all-in-one packages, removing the hassle from skiing." No vested interests there then.
Compare and contrast: Portes du Soleil - French versus Swiss (Main/Core resorts only). In the French corner; Morzine, Avoriaz, Les Gets, Chatel. In the Swiss; Champery, Champoussin, Les Crosets, Morgins.
Sorry, the French win. If I go skiing, I care rather less about chocolate box scenery and rather more about good skiing and value.
Why?
Better infrastructure: more, faster, newer, higher capacity lifts and better situated. I don't believe any of the French core stations have T-bars, the Swiss have several.
Better, way better, snow making, grooming and piste conditions.
Better and better value restaurants on and off mountain.
Better range and value ski hire/shops/etc.
errr, that's it.
Anyway, the article in question is a crap bit of "Journalism". I can't quite see how a nation that saw itself through two world wars unscathed would recognise a reduction in local skier numbers as a national crisis.
"the majority preferred to stay at home or head south to warmer climes to spend their vacations" Hmmm, so we're not really talking about skiers then are we?
"And the dwindling interest comes at a time when members of the national ski team have been putting in mediocre performances on the World Cup circuit." Yeah right.
I don't avoid Switzerland but it's certainly not my own number 1 country when it comes to skiing. Apart from having to fly through Geneva 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
In term of pure skiing I am in agreement with David Murdoch, especially after my recent trip to Swiss side of Portes Du Soleil. I have done the Les Gets, Morzine and Avoriaz several times and the French infrastructure is indeed way ahead of the Swiss.
I was rather shocked by the scary experience of being dragged up from Morgins to Portes du Culet because the ground was either a section of ice or a grass field or a target practice for shot guns as it was full of large holes.
In one morning I drove up from Monthey I did not see a single car on my side of the road until I arrived at Morgins. The wife and I were the only customers to purchase a ski pass and the only skiers on the chairlift system from the bottom station. It was Christmas time and supposed to be the peak season. The day earlier we went up from Morgins to Champoussin and the resort was more business like with more visitors but we could still park anywhere we wanted in the car park at around 10:00. Comparing with Val Claret in Tignes and Bellecote in La Plagnes we would be lucky to get a parking space there at such time.
I have heard skiers regularly complaining the large number of surface lifts in PDS. Just wonder how much damage this has done to its popularity. The situation is made worse by the French have been moving at full speed to replace the surface lifts in the neighbouring area.
Apart from the shocking drag lift from Morgins I also had a bad experience with the drag lifts going up 3 Marches between Les Menuires and St Martin in 3 Vallees. However when I went to the same place this year all the drag lifts at 3 Marches were gone and replaced by chairlifts. Thus the demise of Swiss resorts could due to being static while others are moving ahead with improvements.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Went to Morzine last year. Due to snow conditions we only went to the Swiss side one time but I got the impression that the mountain restaurants on the French side were quite pricy (not as bad as Courcheval but Puy Saint Vincent this year was way better value). The one restaurant we sampled on the Swiss side actually seemed to me to be better value.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David I've been on Tbars in Val D'Isere....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I would agree with PG about the quality of accomodation in Flaine. I've never stayed in more tired accomodation but I have stayed in more cramped and they certainly are cheap. But I still go back there because the whole formula works for us. It is possible to eat reasonably on the mountain (best to go over to Morillon/Samoens etc for better prices) and it's also possible to eat reasonably in the evening. I've always found the ski hire to be better quality than I've had anywhere else in France (for the same money as other skiset shops) and the lifts are generally OK.
My only experience of Switzerland was in Verbier and I didn't like it at all. Fantastically expensive for everything and the lift system was terrible as was sign-posting, grooming etc. The attitude of the lift company was even worse - we bought Glacier extension passes but the Glacier never opened when we were there so we toddled off to the lift pass office and asked for a refund (which we were entitled to) but their policy was to refund in Verbier vouchers for the next time we visited! Also it took them ages after a snowfall to open any of the lifts and the links with the 4V were never opened. The same season I went to Alpe d'Huez and we had a massive dump of snow (so much so that when riding the drag lifts the pulley wheels were level with my head and the bar was almost horizontal) and almost everything was open within the next morning. I felt that Verbier wasn't bothering because whatever they did people would still go back there. I'm sure that the rest of Switzerland is not like that but my one experience wasn't value for money and it put me off for years. Maybe I'll try it again sometime but I'm not sure when.......
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
neilswingler, I think it depends on exactly where you go. IIRC for example, the funny little restaurant halfway down Arare (?Petit Pin?) charges the most preposterous prices whereas (if you do trays) the big one on the Avoriaz plateau (?Tane o'loup?) does a cracking plat du jour for a very reasonable price.
Again, in contrast, I can't recall any Swiss restaurant being good value. Although I will admit to a very old prejudice going back to my repping days when the Swiss wouldn't give us free lunches with guests in tow. The French always would. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Intrestingly last week I was in a mountain restaurant where the person paying mis heard the waitress who said 103.30 and he tried to pay her 140 chf incl tip, she was horrified, "Oh you have paid far to much" was the line she used, I wonder how many restaurants in other countries would have been as honest, I can almost gaurentee that nothing would have been said in the UK
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
