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Discussion on the Ski Instructors Legal Case in France Thread

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Is snowheads joining in with French protectionism?

This great news, the ESF's protectionism was a disgrace. Hopefully this will also result in the Euro Speed Tests being consigned to history, they were designed to be a tool of protectionism and the requirements in the speed test have absolutely no bearing on ability to teach recreational snowsports.

snowHead
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'm a little bemused, but hey ho, some people have the inside info that I'm not privy to. snowHead

I do have to say that the original post in that thread looked very familiar to something that, I believe, davidof linked to. In fact, it looked word for word.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skisimon wrote:
I'm a little bemused, but hey ho, some people have the inside info that I'm not privy to. snowHead


I'm a little bemused too Puzzled

Come on unlock the thread and let Tinky post the full decision and answer a few questions.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
Hmm. Quite an opening post for a newbie - and not substantiated by cross-reference, either. I can see why the Piste Patrol are having a think. Interesting thread, though.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Winterhighland, "new" poster arrives with this - very welcome - news. I look forward to learning more but it is nice when motives to post are transparent. Any problem with the piste patrol stance? This news ain't going to go away, why not wait and see.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Tinky has signed up and posted exactly the same first post over on Piste Hors

http://pistehors.com/news/forums/viewthread/126/ Confused
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Yes, I'm a new member and I've posted this press release on another site too, as both sites covered the original case and I believed this would be of interest. The judgement number for full written confirmation of this case, as published by the Bonneville court, is 590/2006 and the press release was prepared by Paul Salvisberg the Avocat, not myself.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
tinky, are you Simon Butler?

What do you think are the implications for other non-French instructors teaching in France?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
tinky, Ok - why don't you give us your personal view about this? Otherwise perhaps it really belongs as a news item in tbe snowNews section?

You can see that for you to be aware of sH and pisteHors and not post on them, until a synchronous posting of this press release looks... intriguing?

Dietrologia - my favourite italian word.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
No I'm not Simon Butler.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
stoatsbrother, only Mods can post in the News section, AFAIK. Have to say I'm much more interested in the substance of this news than any intrigue about who/why it was posted.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar, Looking for a job wink Cool Laughing
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
thefatcontroller, who knows... Wink

If the rules change I already have a job offer in France, but I don't think that the rules will change for years, if ever.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
tinky wrote:
Yes, I'm a new member and I've posted this press release on another site too, as both sites covered the original case and I believed this would be of interest. The judgement number for full written confirmation of this case, as published by the Bonneville court, is 590/2006....


I can find no reference (other than this thread) when I Google. You are (presumably) new poster to sHs - publishing what at first glance stuff that is authoritative. Yet we don't know you, and there is no cross-reference we can readily access. I wonder what your motive for posting is. I understand the Poste patrol,wanting a think on this, though, personally, I would have let the other thread roll, then seen what your angle was.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar, Are all those who work in new Generation French then?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
thefatcontroller wrote:
rob@rar, Are all those who work in new Generation French then?
No, mostly Brits.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar, Sorry understanding now, you have to get British qualification. Is the BASI you are doing a Brit qualification then?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
thefatcontroller, BASI = British Association of Snowsports Instructors
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rob@rar, Ahhh, why do it then, can you use it elsewhere?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
BASI qualifications are recognized across the world, via membership of ISIA.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
rob@rar, Ah ok but not in France. Thanks for clearing up.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
thefatcontroller, they are accepted in France. But, in addition, there are the ridiculous number of hoops that the French throw up to jump through before you can practice. It looks like a bloody circus as times...
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
thefatcontroller, the highest level BASI qualification is sufficient to teach in France. There are four levels of qualification (I have the first two, and have just started on the third level). The second level BASI qualification would allow me to teach in most countries if a ski school wanted to employ me.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar wrote:
stoatsbrother, only Mods can post in the News section, AFAIK.


didn't realise that... Embarassed
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
What shame that this case was 'lost' subject to appeal. Professional 'bodies' have been exerting these influences for years Think of your own before decrying others!) . What will the benefits be .. something like the Brit -school 'Haut-Lac' in the Vaud/Bernese Oberland who regularly have 12-ish trains of Brit-kid-beginners across the slopes?

We really are a jingoistic nation ...

I look forward to this 'landmark' rolling eyes case producing a Brit WC-winner ( perhaps in Ski-Carrying-technique or 'Snowplow-excellence') ....

.. of course I'm a Francophile .. so my views can be dismissed as such wink
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
If you don't like the 'French way' then go and work somewhere else!

At the end of the day its just as hard for a French Instructor to finish their Diplome BEES as it is for a Brit...

When I worked in the States I jumped into the PSIA system...it gave a good insight into their way of thinking amongst other things. If I'd done more than one season in NZ I may well have jumped in there too. The days of the Empire are long gone folks, however there are plenty of Brits working quite happily (and legally) in France... Yes you do have to go through some paperwork, but show me something in France that doesn't involve lots of paperwork - mortgage agreements have to be initialled at the bottom of every page of the agreement (in duplicate), my other half is a physio and has to register with the French authorities in order to practise legally over here...
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Just for the record, I don't have a problem with the French requiring ISTD status for all instructors to teach (not just Brits and those from Paris!), even though it means that I probably won't ever be able to teach there. I also don't have an objection to the Eurotest being part of ISTD status, although I think that the standard could be lowered slightly (maybe to 25% for men) without any dimunition of teaching standards. I'd much prefer the French approach to something like Switzerland, where lowly Grade 3s (like me), or worse, can be given full time teaching jobs. I just don't think that is a high enough standard for autonomous teaching, even within the structure of a ski school.

Agenterre, sorry, I must be having a bad "man flu" day but I really don't understand the point you're making Embarassed
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar,Sorry , I think my points ( usual nonsensical stuff from me ) ...are:-

1) I keep reading here that folks consider the Euro-test to be a national 'discrimination' by a French professional body against others. However, we Brits should look at our own professional (non-skiing) bodies for similar discrimination against others practising in the UK.

2) There seems to be an 'unwritten' pardigm that British 'punters' (like me) are suffering due to the French standards/ regime ... this is untrue afaics.

and

3) I totally agree with what you say about Switzerland by observation of the British Haut-Lac school/ Program / Residential courses which would not be allowed to operate in France I suspect. 12+ kids per class ( ignore their publicity to the contrary, the most we've seen is 19 with one instructor); instructors who could do with a few lessons themselves ... perhaps 'Standards' work ?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
offpisteskiing, I hope my post didn't come across as having a particular dig at the French system (although I can see how the circus comment may appear that way). I have no problem with the French system, I think it may be a little OTT/restrictive, but as you say, the standard is across the board, the same for everyone.

Yet somehow I've never had particularly good experiences of French instructors...

One would have thought that an ISTD qualified instructor could do better than "follow me"... wink
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Agenterre, as I understand it the Eurotest is more about keeping the Parisians out Wink

While I have much sympathy with what you say, I'm not sure that the French approach guarantees uniformly high standards. I gave up on ski instruction after a couple of hopeless experiences with ESF guys, and I see lots of hopeless examples around the mountain now from the guys in red. This compares very poorly with my BASI-trained instructors who have been, without exception, excellent (although I accept that this was probably more to do with me choosing my ski schools carefully than any other factor).
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
skisimon wrote:
One would have thought that an ISTD qualified instructor could do better than "follow me"... wink


Follow me (or rather, follow the demanding line that I've set) has it's place in the range of appropriat teaching strategies, surely? I've just spent a couple of weeks following a BASI Trainer in a group of 10 and following his line was one of the more demanding aspects of the course. Just depends on how that tool is used...
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar, quite. I agree that the "follow me" element of a lesson can be very useful, but whether it should make up over three-quarters of the lesson is a different issue.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar, Fair point ... but I nearly gave up skiing after 3 -days of private lessons with a very expensive , internationally acclaimed, heavily marketed , very expensive and over-rated 'UK" ski school ( although uundoubtedly the individual in this case) ... took the ESI to get me to stand up on skis !

No 'system can 'guarantee' but standards do help in any work of life imho. Tend to agree about the Parisiens though ... universally disliked throughout France ( as in never have a '75' car registration plate)!
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skisimon wrote:
rob@rar, quite. I agree that the "follow me" element of a lesson can be very useful, but whether it should make up over three-quarters of the lesson is a different issue.


If it's just guiding people down the piste I agree it has no role whatsoever. That's the reason why I gave up on ESF instruction, because for a couple of week's worth of lessons that's pretty much all I got, plus a few "bend zee knees" type comments.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar, I watched our Kids this Jan in Peisey get 1 week of 'follow me' with ESF. Absolute rubbish, will never use again Mad
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You'll need to Register first of course.
thefatcontroller wrote:
rob@rar, I watched our Kids this Jan in Peisey get 1 week of 'follow me' with ESF. Absolute rubbish, will never use again Mad


There's not a problem with 'follow me' if it has a purpose other than just keeping your group together. So if you are also doing some exercises to work on, for example, balance and stance, or setting a line which controls their turn shape and speed than it is a useful tool to use with groups or individuals. But far too often it is used just as a tool for group management without any actual teaching going on. Then it is a waste of time and money. It's important not to assume that just because a group are in a ski school snake that they are not learning anything, but to look beyond that to see what teaching is going on. Also, regardless of how well the 'follow me' is working, a good instructor will me it up with other strategies to make sure the lesson is fun and learning is approached in different ways.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The thread has been moved to snowNews and I've edited the title of this one to reflect the fact that it's no longer locked.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
rob@rar, Being brutal and having watched it, it was some French lady going through the motions, she never once taught them how to do things, she just skied of shouting 'follow me'. Juts so different to the previous 2 years with Evolution2 in Montchavin, great team there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
thefatcontroller, sadly I see quite a lot of that, maybe more so with kids. It can be valid (as I think kids learn much more by emulation than adults do) but need to be used carefully.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar, It was very disappointing but at least next year we will be able to use the ski school up in Arc1950 who I hear have a very good reputation (signing contracts this week Shocked )
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