 Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum,
If you say people can knock their heads against a rock necessitating you to come from a blue run, snowploughing a black run to say them then you are preaching!
You are actually telling people would die without a helmet on a black run while you are toltally safe in a blue slope!
It never occurs to you those people have already graduated from the blue slopes, into the red and then black and haven't died yet without a helemet, but they get into immediate danger while you are wearing a helmet and skiing around them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| ...........Incidentally, I hink the chances of being involved in "a collision" are far higher than you suggest. It is only collisions involving ijnury that are reported - which I accept are generally the only ones relevant to this debate. |
I am a bit curious about that. Thinking about it, I have seen one collision only (albeit an unpleasant one of an out-of-control skier wiping out a young child, then skiing off without offering assistance) in the last 3 or 4 years. However, a lot of sHs appear to have seen or been involved in collisions recently - and this thread suggests it is not unusual. I don't usually ski during school holidays - and I ski quite a bit off-piste. Maybe that is why my experience and those of others varies.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, That's good to know. Except that half trained, inexperienced first aiders kill more casualties than they save.
Of course if I was unconscious (despite my helmet) and lying without an open airway halfway down a black run (that was suitably close to, and in sight and easy reach of the blue you were snowploughing down) I'd be damned grateful if you could just cruise on down to me, tweak my tongue out and give me a spot of cpr before the qualified and experienced piste patrol came along, far too late to save me.
Or then again, maybe I'll just take my chances 
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achilles,
| Quote: |
and I ski quite a bit off-piste
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That is absolutely why you see few collisions and is one of the reasons why - unfortunately very, very belatedly - I have decided to try and learn some off-piste skills. Pistes are becoming more and more dangerous, a combination of more people on them and, I think, the fact that modern skis quite quickly give people the illusion that they can ski competently.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
half trained, inexperienced first aiders kill more casualties than they save.
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B.t.w. on a more serious note - I think St John Ambulance might have an issue with the above if that was specifically aimed at me. Their first aiders are more highly trained than average, we get training in medical gases, defibrulators, airways, casualty movement etc. etc. and often work alongside fully trained paramedics. Some of their staff with the time to do so are actually as trained as NHS ambulance staff.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 25-02-08 0:36; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Quote:
half trained, inexperienced first aiders kill more casualties than they save.
B.t.w. on a more serious note - I think St John Ambulance might have an issue with the above if that was specifically aimed at me. Their first aiders are more highly trained than average, we get training in medical gases, defibrulators, airways, casualty movement etc. etc. and often work alongside fully trained paramedics. Some of their staff with the time to do so are actually as trained as NHS ambulance staff
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AxsMan, Just in case you missed it I put this in above.
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AxsMan, could it possibly be that you are everso slightly trolling now?!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Quote: |
half trained, inexperienced first aiders kill more casualties than they save.
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B.t.w. on a more serious note - I think St John Ambulance might have an issue with the above if that was specifically aimed at me. Their first aiders are more highly trained than average, we get training in medical gases, defibrulators, airways, casualty movement etc. etc. and often work alongside fully trained paramedics. Some of their staff with the time to do so are actually as trained as NHS ambulance staff. |
Yes and too many 'volunteers' live for the day when they can put that training into practice on some poor sod whose passed out on the pavement.
I stand by my quote. I was dead serious. No defibs or gases available on the mountain, and no paramedic at your elbow, just breathing, bleeding and bones.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Quote: |
Quote:
half trained, inexperienced first aiders kill more casualties than they save.
B.t.w. on a more serious note - I think St John Ambulance might have an issue with the above if that was specifically aimed at me. Their first aiders are more highly trained than average, we get training in medical gases, defibrulators, airways, casualty movement etc. etc. and often work alongside fully trained paramedics. Some of their staff with the time to do so are actually as trained as NHS ambulance staff
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AxsMan, Just in case you missed it I put this in above. |
didn't miss it. proves my point really.
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You know it makes sense.
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There seems to be a great passion to wear a helmet from skiers who have been wiped out on blue runs or by beginners. At least another thread has been started by one SH crashed into by two beginners and decided to wear a helmet.
Is it possible once a skier graduated from the green and blue slopes he/she might just find the collison danger could drop so much that such passion is inapplicable?
Red slopes normally have less piste users and the black runs have the least so the chance of a collison can be significantly lower.
In steeper and more difficult slopes skiers will have a higher skill and less likely to overestimate their ability to crash into other piste users.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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saikee, well put. I do know a number of advanced skiers who wear helmets but they are of the variety I mentioned in another thread ages ago - the type I suggest you not follow if you are a beginner/intermediate.
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Poster: A snowHead
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saikee, the wipe-out that finally provoked me into buying a helmet was on a steep, icy red. I don't think most red runs are less busy than blue ones nowadays (see my earlier remark about modern skis being easier and therefore engendering misplaced confidence) though I agree that black ones tend to be less busy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ok, radical concept I accept, but how about 'Those who want to wear helmets can and should, while those who don't, need not' ?
** No piste patrols were endangered in the making of this post **
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| seriously hurt and a helmet would have prevented it |
The odds of a serious or fatal head injury in snowsports is thankfully low, the odds of a helmet making a difference in such a situation is also low. They could well save you a dose of concussion in a minor mishap, but from talking to people on lifts I can't help but feel there is a genuine issue with people far over estimating the worth of their lid. I have on several occasions had a similar conversation with a lidded skier on the Cas T-bar on CairnGorm that points to the fences, the rocks, the towers and for that matter the t-bar uptrack in the middle of the run and comment how can you ski this without a helmet? Are you off your head?
The idea of headbutting CairnGorm granite at 30mph, or losing an edge on a carve and hugging the Coire Cas T-bar might very well have people rushing to the shop to buy a lid - but under such a scenario it's going to make s.f.a difference!
As it happens I was knocked out cold on CairnGorm a few years ago when a binding came apart and the loose ski flipped me over the edge of the Traverse. My memory is sketchy but i do vividly recall in mid flight thinking "oh shite!! This is going to hurt!". Friends that were with me say I didn't hit my head, but i did slam the deck very hard. The impact forces resulted in most of me being sore and bruised, fairly bad concussion (though no obvious blow to head), very shaken up and whiplash. From the injuries and what friends saw it seems questionable that a lid would have made a difference. **
However it did not escape my mind that given where it happened and what i landed on (ice and rocks) that a less fortunate 'flight path' could have made that run being the last thing I did. In which case a lid would probably have made no difference.
As for other safety equipment, if teenage male boarders actually study the injury risks, perhaps they'd be reaching for wrist guards not lids! 
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 25-02-08 1:22; edited 1 time in total
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Hurtle,
I avoid France and many resorts I visited in Italy, Switzerland and Austria are not crowdy at all. Also in Austria and Switzerland the red slopes dominate and there are only a small number of blue runs.
A red slope can get very busy if it is the toroughfare to get back to the bottom station.
flowa,
Experienced skiers doing offpiste would most likely wear a helmet and a rucksack with all the goodies inside. They do it to match the level of risks.
Children need helmets because their skulls are growing and delicate. They are also less capable of making the right decision for themselves against danger.
I haven't seen any SH not wearing helemt would say the act is safe. It is more to do with convenience, other reasons and matching the level of risks anticipated.
However the those who promote the wearing of it seem to think not wearing one is daft, crazy and mad. Very few of them seem to have long experience on skiing. I find this rather disturbing.
Although I don't wear one myself I would take it up when the risk level rises. I may not choose to put it one when I ski in a lonely Austria resort off the TO radar during off season but you will find me with a full-face lid if I decide to join a Snowheads Mid-term Bash held at Meribel Mottaret in the middle of Feb.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 25-02-08 1:37; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Winterhighland, Agreed. Wrist guards for boarders (my teen daughter wears them) are top of the list, closely followed by back protectors for both skiers and boarders in terms of likely benefit. However back protectors are bulky and expensive so few wear them. Helmets are becoming 'cool' and can be relatively cheap. Isn't it funny how the world splits into those that support your freedom to choose and those who think the choice should be made for you?
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Winterhighland,
Good information and relavant although others may seize it as a discouragement to wear helmet and not appreciating your point is more to do with helmet is only "a" and not "the" safety provision.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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AxsMan,
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That's good to know. Except that half trained, inexperienced first aiders kill more casualties than they save.
Of course if I was unconscious (despite my helmet) and lying without an open airway halfway down a black run (that was suitably close to, and in sight and easy reach of the blue you were snowploughing down) I'd be damned grateful if you could just cruise on down to me, tweak my tongue out and give me a spot of cpr before the qualified and experienced piste patrol came along, far too late to save me.
Or then again, maybe I'll just take my chances |
That would be my attitude too! Not that I am not grateful for someone risking his/her life to snowplough down a black run to save my life but from the limited lectures given by the paramedics, on motocylcing accidents, we were told never move the person because of the possible damage to the spine. Freeing the airway would be the wise thing to do though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
However the those who promote the wearing of it seem to think not wearing one is daft, crazy and mad. Very few of them seem to have long experience on skiing. I find this rather disturbing.
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There're those who "promote" the wearing of helmet by wearing one. They're not always the same crowd as those who "think not wearing one is daft, crazy and mad".
Though I can understand your frustration at the second point.  One can't help to have a certain reaction when being told by one's teenager kid on how to drive safely!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lou wrote: |
boredsurfin, I also have never seen a ski instructor (French or British) or piste patroller wearing a helmet.
Are things different elsewhere? Sounds like Canada is for one. |
Quite and the guys I saw who climb the pylons to free stuck lift cables chairs etc don't wear helmets either.
In fact I did not see ANY resort worker on piste wearing a helmet last week despite it being the busiest week of the season.
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| flowa wrote: |
| Isn't anyone interested in how the statistics show that your chances of being involved in a collision are a fraction of 0% and that the 'trend' towards everyone wearing a helmet is potentially putting all skiers at higher risk of suffering an injury on collision due to damage caused by helmets themselves? |
There are statistics to support whichever view you like. I read in a ski mag this month that 14,400 collisions were reported on French pistes alone last year. This compared with 2100 reported incidents hitting stationary objects like trees. The insurance companies were particularly concerned by the number of head injuries and broken bones resulting from such collisions. Most people who ski in France don't wear a helmet, so it's not clear how many of those head injuries may have been prevented by wearing a helmet.
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You know it makes sense.
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uktrailmonster, ....or how many were as a result of one or other party wearing a helmet (with or without mp3 player) and thus oblivious of the noise around them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, ....or how many were as a result of one or other party wearing a helmet (with or without mp3 player) and thus oblivious of the noise around them. |
Given that only a small percentage of skiers wear a helmet in France, virtually none I would guess.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| flowa wrote: |
Well, let's look at the numbers:
14,400 collisions reported last season in France
260,000 skiers transported on the 183 lifts in 3 Valleys PER HOUR
So, if all the accidents that were reported in France last season were by some bizarre twist of fate to have happened within 1 hour across JUST the 3 Valleys ski area, that would be a figure of 6% of injuries being caused by collision!
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Yes, let's look at the numbers then. How can you state what percentage of accidents (not percentage of skiers like you seem to have calculated) are due to collisions when you don't even know the total number of accidents reported? The French report actually claimed that 20% of accidents were a direct result of collisions. It also stated that the collision injuries tended to be more serious than the single accidents. Your calculation above is a load of dangly bits.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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7 pages of utter tosh...
wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet, the decision is yours and yours alone NO ONE on this site or any other has the right to preach to others about the situation using emotional blackmail etc etc
if i want to be preached to i will go to a church
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| In fact I did not see ANY resort worker on piste wearing a helmet last week despite it being the busiest week of the season. |
I saw a couple in Les Arcs earlier this season. Both were piste security (although I think one of them might have been riding a snowcat). I've also seen one Brit ski instructor occasionally wear a helmet - always a scary experience as I know what terrain will be skied that day 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| CEM wrote: |
7 pages of utter tosh...
wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet, the decision is yours and yours alone NO ONE on this site or any other has the right to preach to others about the situation using emotional blackmail etc etc
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Spot on.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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CEM,
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NO ONE on this site or any other has the right to preach to others
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Oh my goodness, there was me thinking that the opportunity to preach was the main purpose of these sites! It surely can't just be to compare footbeds, digital cameras and the contents of one's day pack. Can it?
PS Spot on indeed!
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| CEM wrote: |
7 pages of utter tosh...
wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet, the decision is yours and yours alone NO ONE on this site or any other has the right to preach to others about the situation using emotional blackmail etc etc
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Spot on. |
Absolutely. And that's 7 pages on this thread alone, how many more on all the other 'great helmet debate' threads?
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| CEM wrote: |
7 pages of utter tosh...
wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet, the decision is yours and yours alone NO ONE on this site or any other has the right to preach to others about the situation using emotional blackmail etc etc
if i want to be preached to i will go to a church |
I agree, but I think the point of these "debates" is to help a few people make that decision one way or the other. I don't feel that strongly about wearing a ski helmet, but the anti-helmet preachers get up my nose even more than the pro-helmet ones.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| rob@rar, I did specify on piste |
Ah, didn't see that. I have seen an instructor wearing a helmet on piste, but that was skiing gates so perhaps not a typical activity, and it was only for the end of the week race when he skied at his own pace. If you're teaching I think the disadvantages of wearing a helmet outweigh the risk of not wearing one.
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uktrailmonster, Being preached at (whatever the message) is the annoying thing. That and emotional blackmail bolstered by far fetched hypothetical dramas. CEM hit the nail on the head.
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FAQ
Mind you, I you said above you wear a helmet didn't you, so hopefully you will be able to avoid the embarassment - that's gotta be a great reason to wear one folks!! 
