Ski instruction in France

A snowHead

While the subject is topical, a quick poll. And perhaps some could mention their experiences, positive or negative, below?

SnowHeads has emailed the chairman of the ESF informing him of this poll, including some questions on the ESF's alleged position of monopoly, criticisms of its teaching methodology, as well as the communication problems oftened encountered between so-called English-speaking instructors and their pupils. When - if - a response is forthcoming, we will publish it...

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Most of my skiing is done in Switzerland therefore ESF is not an issue. The odd times that I have lessons (private) I would want a ski school that guaranteed a fluent English speaking instructor (not usually an issue in Switzerland wink

)

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Apologies to the one person who originally ticked "never take lessons", the inclusion of the extra option seems to have moved him to taking lessons outside France. Can't do anything about that I'm afraid. (Ed: Fixed]

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Quite apart from their monopolistic practices I have a real practical problem with ESF instructors.

We all know that they are racers with no training in giving instruction but did you also know that ESF snowboard instructors do not need any additional qualifications? That means that once an instructor has passed the skiing speed test he is "qualified" to teach snowboarding.

I have often seen ESF "instructors" teaching novice snowboarders really bad habits, typically, to initiate a turn with the shoulder which, I believe, may be a skiing thing but it is certainly not the way to ride a snowboard.

BASI, on the other hand, has an excellent snowboard intsructor programme.

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Thankfully this applies only in France.
On balance, any positives that a given EFS offers in any given French resort are always overshadowed by their negatives..... I personally would rather hike over the border though a blizzard into the next country/resort in order to hunt out a non-EFS school....

But then I'm fussy. Laughing

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After all it is free

I've ticked the 'never take lessons' option which has been true for many years. Never used ESF I'm so not commenting about them as such in the poll. Won't join any big class again. However, I might take a private lesson or two in future so I'm lying about the 'no intention of doing so' part. And if I do, I'd be looking for an independent rather than ESF, based on their pretty poor reputation. I used to enjoy ski-leading (not guiding) given by Brit Tour Ops. A great introduction to a resort, where to eat, how to avoid queues, where to go in bad weather, etc. It was free, never had any element of tuition, was not guiding off-piste - just a tour of the resort with some local knowledge thrown in. Gave the reps a chance to get out on skis and pick up a free lunch or two from the punters. But that style of ski leading has been virtually killed off by the ESF restrictions. NBT's post on the topic in snowNews says it all for me. Only smaller T.O.s offering a higher level of leading (more off-piste for example) have survived in a few French resorts.

PG are you able to say how the French view the ESF? Broad question I know, but we 'Brits' are pretty broadly 'anti' so could it be the French also don't rate ESF highly - - or support it? It's more than just a language issue. There is a great deal of 'follow me' - I've watched the ESF mid-level classes and the tuition just doesn't compare with what I had years ago in Italy, for example.

Edit - there is more discussion on the subject of the ESF on this topic in snowNews. Unfortunately, the forum software does not allow threads to be combined, so you'll just have to read both.

ise, sorry I got carried away. On reflection, I realise that ESF instructors must have some training in giving instruction but I still believe that they do not require any additional qualifications to teach snowboarding and this is certainly borne out watching them in action.

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My experience of ESF (in several different resorts) has been mixed. On the positive side, all the ESF guys I've skied with have been friendly, spoke pretty good English, had a passion for the mountains which they were keen to share and had a wealth of funny anecdotes which meant for an enjoyable time. On the negative side, they were reluctant to offer any personal feedback on my performance, taught mainly by exhorting the whole class to 'follow me' and 'do as I do' and some of them had pretty questionable ski technique (certainly not advocates of the modern approach that we should use to get the best out of today's skis). In my experience ESF offers a great guiding service, but a poor teaching service.

I have no doubt that there are excellent ESF instructors who will compare with the best from any ski school. My problem is that there are also a lot of poor instructors, and if you're signing up for class (which I prefer to do at the moment) it's really hit or miss whether you get a good instructor or not. I've therefore stopped using ESF and will now only ski with small British ski schools were I can guarantee that whatever instructor I have for the week will be first class. This costs a little more than a typical week with ESF, but I think it's good value for money. I recently posted a review of the Snoworks ski school in the "Bend ze Knees" section - for those who have skied with ESF recently it might be interested to compare experiences...

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I've had quite a lot of good, and little not-so-good experience with the ESF.
One of the best instructors I have had was ESF - on a SCGB-arranged holiday (at Les 2 Alpes).
Every ESF instructor I can remember did comment on personal performance. Mind you, all the ESF instruction was arranged for me by organisations which would have had some influence over the standard of instruction provided.

snow reports

Unless I'm on a weekend fix, I always take ski school lessons. This means I've had quite a few lessons with various ski schools in a number of countries.

To be honest I've never had a problem with ESF who I've used (I think) on at least four occations. The quality of instruction is always dependant on the instructor and, most importantly, their level of "English" rather than their level of skill.

I commented in another thread - essentially I had a reasonably good experience at intermediate level (though on reflection I know my instructor lost pupils twice). I found it hard to really talk to him as my french isn't up to 'you need to have angulation from your ankle as well as your knee when you're trying to get some bite into a carved turn' (or whatever) - and you can't get that from 'do like this'

My wife and another lady in her beginner class was reduced to tears and she probably wouldn't have skiied again if I hadn't taken them under my wing and done some slow, fun stuff.

As for the sizes of the classes - most of the time you have to either push to the front (which leads to bad blood between the students - but which the french have no problem in doing!) or get absolutely nothing from the class 'cos you're following some other newby who can probably ski as well as you if you're lucky.

So, no, never again. In fact I don't know if I'll go skiing in France again Smile

David

You know it makes sense.

I've taken private lessons with ESF instructors in Val d'Isère and l'Alpe d'Huez. Both instructors were young and enthusiastic and I felt that the money was well spent... especially with the Val d"Isère instructor who was extemely pretty to boot.

I have gone on 1 group lesson with the ESF. It was the typical 'follow me' type thing. Speaking to the rest of the group, all French I think, they seemed happy with this and were more looking for a guiding service and a way of jumping lift lines. Maybe one reason the ESF feels threatened by the Tour Operators guiding services is that they are not adding much value themselves?

To be honest I don't think the SSS (Swiss Ski School) is any better than the ESF. A big monopolistic federation with big class sizes and little real competition.

The fact that independents exist in some resorts is good. I would never send my kids on collective lessons but would try to get together with some other parents and send them with a private instructor - whether ESF or not. If you have 4 in the group the costs are about the same for a much better level of service.

And full marks to the English guys who came into the SSS in Davos a few years back and said "we want an instructor, we don't care if she can teach but we want someone who knows the restaurants and is young, fit, very pretty and female"

I saw them later at the Wolfgang restaurant and they got exactly what they ordered. This Swiss can deliver, sometimes.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

davidof, I think you mean ESS actually. There's a current issue I understand between ISIA and ESS about standards. The qualifications required to teach in Switzerland are lower than the France, in fact, here a BASI 3 can teach and it's not too hard to get attached to a ski school as a trainee. I've never used ESS so I've no idea how good they are or otherwise.

A snowHead

I believe that the ESF are fufilling their duties as a trade association protecting their member's interests as would any other trade association or union with influence or lobbying power. I also believe that for a lot of skiers, it's an opportunity to trot out the same old cliches that have been kicking around for years and have now assumed the status of urban legends, everyone repeats them, ergo they must be valid. I wonder just how many snowheads will take lessons, not many, judging from the poll. I also know from experience, that the vast majority of Brit skiers I see, could benefit from lessons but so could the majority of French or Italian skiers.
I also think this is a product of particular resorts where the ESF and the Independents have been sniping at each other for a long time. I was suprised to read in the article that the ESI in Chatel has many trainees as instructors. To my mind that's a nonsense and if I was an ESF instructor there, I'd be ticked off about it, it also means the client isn't getting what they've paid for.
I know that in La Rosiere we don't have these issues but maybe that's because it's a smaller village, where most of the instructors are locals, regardless of which school they work with. When our guests ask for a recommendation, I'm happy to say, go to any of them but what do you specifically want to do? I can then introduce them to a particular instructor. I also don't have any issues about the quality of instruction here, but then, I know that within the ESF's brigade are ex-Olympians, former French and European champions and we have an Brit as the deputy director. I'd be interested to hear easiski's views as she has to operate within the system. I do agree though, with playdreamer, the ESF moved a whole bunch of ski instructors over to snowboards a few years ago so anyone with a recognised snowboard teaching qualification is welcomed.

A snowHead

I think there is a lot of truth in David@traxvax's comments above. Though there are grounds for being critical of the alleged arrogance and communication difficulties of some ESF instructors, my experience is that this is the exception rather than the rule.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

From past experience I would never use ESF they destroyed my sisters confidence shes never skied since would always use an independent after recommendation Personally I like EVO 2 in Tignes

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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I've no experience of ESF.....but I'm sure they've got good and bad instructors like any other organisation. I aways try to take a few lessons each season and try to get a recommendation for a local instructor, wouldn't care if they're ESF or independent as long as someone tells me they're the bees knees!

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After all it is free

I have usedf ESF and had good tuition, and mediocre, but never bad. However, the children would disagree with that, and had an awful time in Flaine, and La Plagne, although they thought LA Rosiere was great . They always said that the teacher did not want to make the lesson fun, and frequently shouted at the class.

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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

So what PG, do the Francophone forums and even better native French forums have to say about ESF ? Same as us ? Or do some Nationalities really like ESF ? We are getting mixed reviews here but the balance is tending towards the negative. A potted review from your first hand knowledge of other sources would be valuable.

snow reports

It's the old national stereotypes again. The ESF in La Rosiere run a torchlight descent ski show every Monday evening which is fantastic, a great show. However, part of the tableau is the poor lonely child stuck in the snow, unable to ski with anyone, or as they put it skis a la Anglaise, lots of crouching, @rse in the air and poles held vertically upwards, complete with a mournful little ditty a la Aznavour. Always creates a lot of mirth for Les Francaise, but it is a strereotype. Although the French aren't the only ones, when my son then aged 11 went on an exchange trip with an Austrian school, he was told they never realised the English could ski.

kuwait_ian, not really an issue in France. Neither with the punters, nor with those who are faced with having to take the Eurotest at some point. Most people with whom I've discussed the subject have been content with the service provided on the whole, although as with every teaching organisation, it has good, average and poor exponents of the art.

Very rarely a topic of conversation on the French forums, and certainly never with the rancour that occasionally comes to the fore in the Anglophone forums.

Personal experience, mostly good. A lot of lessons were private, for the kids, and I soon learnt to make sure I was getting exactly the type of instructor I wanted, from the outset. Groups - pretty good on the whole. Of course communication difficulties were never an issue. I occasionally followed the private lessons around, or came across them by accident, and invariably they were concentrating hard on the areas I had asked them to work on beforehand. Not once did any of my kids come away from lessons unhappy.

Moving away from private lessons to club training, my daughter's trainers, in three different clubs, have been ESF trained and qualified. Without exception they are excellent, in terms of teaching and technical ability, as well as patience. I've met many many others on five months a year on the race circuits and out of sixty or seventy, I can only think of a couple that have stuck in my mind as being unsuitable for the job of training children. As I mentioned somewhere else, by way of example, the two currently top 1992 GB racers by a mile (boy and girl) are both completely ESF-trained. Anecdotal sure, but no fluke.

You know it makes sense.

Recent news contradicts but I think in some areas the ESF (who I believe are very locally governed) are desperately trying to escape the old prejudice against them (racers all, no English, follow me, etc.) and actually deliver what the client wants.

Example being Montriond Ski School (in?below?) Avoriaz. The local valley has a load of family oriented small chalet co.s so in recent years Montrion has actively specialised and targetted children's lessons. Several friends with families (a few live in Morzine so have regular contact) rave about the organisation, child friendliness and quality of teaching.

So it's not all bad, and maybe actually getting better?

And I'm astounded (and delighted) at the idea of a Brit as Dep Director.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

David, your point is very well made, there is a high degree of local governance and I believe it's actually better than you think. The guy concerned told me he'd almost got rid of all the old ben ze knees an follow me types. If you're into telemarking or back country skiing he's the guy I would go to for instruction. There are also a couple of instructors in La Ros who are UIAGM qualified who take out clients for heli-skiing.

A snowHead

I went out with an ESF off-piste 'board instructor a couple of years back in Val who was quite exceptional, probably one of the best ever days I've had on a board in fact. Just a plug for their boarding guys Very Happy

A snowHead

David@traxvax, don;t remember that from the torchlight descent, but do rememeber Nicolas' strip routine, eventually skiing down in his boxers, the music was Pink Floyd too, not Aznavour.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Helen, it's usually the opening routine, the mc/singer is the manager of the local huit a huit.

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My tuppence worth. I have skied with the ESF and other schools on several occasions, I have found that there is as much variation of quality of instruction within schools as there is between schools at least as perceived by the groups I have skied with. My most recent experience with the ESF is of excellent off piste guiding, though with little instruction, the other clients were all French.

My major gripe with the ESF is that they allow very large class sizes even during low season when not all the instructors are working.
I certainly would continue to use them though I would tend to go to other schools who guarantee smaller class sizes.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I think there may be a difference in ESF instruction between advanced lessons given maybe in private instruction, and the bog standard group lessons.

We went with ESF for my first two ski weeks - obviously the first instructor did actually teach me to ski which was good snowHead

The second instructor however didn't. It seemed all he could do was shout at me not to snowplough without actually telling me what I had to do in order to not snowplough (sounds silly now Embarassed

) M Coins was moved up a class on the first day cos he was too good Evil or Very Mad

except he had to go up two classess cos the guy didn't speak English. So on his second week he played follow my leader down Aiguille Rouge. Took 10 mins with Masterclass in Alpeyd on the next hols for me to do nice turns Little Angel

Now, I still have lessons, maybe one private in a week or 3 days in a fortnight but if there was only ESF I wouldn't go in a class, may consider private but probably wouldn't bother.

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Just to fan the flames some more.................. Very Happy

I'm still hearing just a load of excuses and urban/mountain myths to justify a lack of inclination to take lessons with ESF being scapegoated. If ESF are the reason UK punters aren't taking lessons then why is it no more puntesr take lessons in Austria then?

Learning to ski's hard, it does actually take more than a fortnight, no one get's to be an advanced skier after two or three weeks no matter how much kit they bought.

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ise,
Not sure all of them are mountain myths, I have witnessed 14 in a class in the ESF. I have also seen some pretty big classes in Austria.

Mind you I am not the most coordinated of people myself and am thinking of starting a thread asking how long till I ski properly? 20 years and counting so far, sigh! Puzzled

After all it is free

You'll never ski properly, most of us never do Very Happy

But trying is the fun bit isn't it?

Maybe I should start up an internet forum Rubbish Skiers Annonymous (RSA for short) See how many kooks I can get to join snowHead

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I think a lot of comment here is displaced from 'Bend ze Knees'. There are good and bad reports about the ESF (ise, I think the majority of those are first hand, though I haven't counted). There seem to be very few (none?) bad first hand reports about smaller operations in France. I think there are a number of issues beyond personal preference that it would be worth discussing here, given this specific development, like:

(1) Do we want our own and other's choices on ski instruction to be limited by government action and, if so, to what degree?
(2) Will the law improve standards?
(3) Have other governments passed legislation / issued decrees on ski instruction, and if so are they more or less restrictive?
(4) Any lawyers care to pass an opinion on whether the French law is consistent with applicable EU laws?

Just to get the ball rolling, my own views are (1) No, (2) Not in any way relevant to me, (3) Don't know, (4) Not qualified, but suspect it's contestable.

Mods: maybe this post would be better on the thread in 'snowNews'. I don't mind if it gets moved.

Help!!

Ski instruction in France

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