 Poster: A snowHead
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According to a report in l'Expansion, warfare has broken out between the French national ski school ESF and independent ski schools after a decree by the French sports minister Jean-François Lamour. This stops schools with less than ten qualified instructors employing trainees this winter...
Of course this decree doesn't seem to apply to the ESF where they are the principal ski school in resort. Who decides that? The ESF of course. There is a whole littany of alleged dodgy dealing in French resorts including our favourite spot Megève.
English translation
Warfare on the Pistes
Link to the original French article for francophones:-
Ecoles de ski: du rififi dans la poudreuse
L'Expansion - Paris,France
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 23-11-04 22:06; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ESF seems to be a closed shop old style union sort of affair if you ask me. It's completely self-interested and self-protectionist.
I don't know how many Brits take ESF lessons, but I wonder if a boycot would have any kind impact? They're a disgrace 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Very interesting article, davidof, and bears out what we hear of ESF's stranglehold on the skiing market. Its impossible to get away from them, even Club Med contracts, or used to in 2000 ( the last time I skied in France ), their ski activities to ESF.
Although there are lots of small skiing schools in the french alps they are vastly out-numbered by the forces of the ESF. The smaller independents should takes their case to the french courts, or Counseil d' Etat, and to Brussels if not successful there.
It is anti-competivive as it prevents another independant party from persuing a livelyhood, and it is time that these guys ere brought to book. Imagine the outcry if this happened in the UK!
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| Quote: |
it is time that these guys ere brought to book
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Yeah right, as if that's going to happen 
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[Moderator: this thread has been moved to the News and front page]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Indeed... a bleak ralationship is getting progressively frostier... here is the short page 2 that wasn't translated in Davidof's link:
Snow Wars - the players
Jean-François Lamour: The Minister of Sports and Youth has lit the fuse to the powder in his 11th of November Decree. Small ski schools are now deprived of the right to employ trainees. The text of the decree is clearly to the advantage of the Ecole de Ski Français.
Gilles Chabert: Ten years at the helm of the SNMSF, the national union of French ski instructors and owners of the ESF label (Syndicat National des Moniteurs de Ski Français), he defends tooth and claw its quasi-monopoly over ski tuition - in his eyes the only guarantee of quality teaching and security on the slopes.
Philippe Camus: The chairman of SIMS, the international ski instructors' union (Syndicat International des Moniteurs de Ski, which includes the ESI, is battling fiercely against the Jean-François Lamour decree, which in his opinion favours his opponents. His lawyers intend an appeal to the Privy Council.
The Ecole de Ski Français regroups 90% of ski instructors. The market is valued at some 180 million euros.
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Let's keep things in proportion here. We don't have all the facts, and the Expansion story is a little one-sided.
Gilles Chabert (ESF Chairman) made it quite clear last season that although he welcomed bona fide properly trained instructors from other countries (and he mentioned the likes of Italy, Austria and Scotland), their compliance with French laws and systems was implicit.
However he insisted that there is an increasing number of "cowboy" instructors, in particular British, Russian and Dutch, who are working illegally. He warned that that the coming year there would be a crackdown on these unfair practices. This appears to be the first blow of the season in this ongoing conflict.
You have to have a little sympathy with his position. The example of holiday operators including tuition via unqualified personnel in the guise of free guiding as part of the holiday cost was discussed on this forum last year. The standards of the profession, not to mention the livelihoods of thousands of French professional instructors, are at stake here, and Chabert fervently believes that he is acting to protect both.
However if this new law indirectly penalises the bona fide small independent school while targeting the cowboys, then it is misconceived, and that is a shame for the ESF as its reputation as 'Big Brother' in the industry is already well established. It does seem a clumsy way of attacking the cowboys. The Megève approach of taking a British company to court for providing tuition with personnel lacking the necessary qualifications was understandable, and effective, as a judgment against the company was obtained. But this latest decree does seem more like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut, while gifting the ESF with a further competitive edge against the genuine, law-abiding operators.
Is this law a sign of the increasing strength of the ESF within the industry? Now an official partner (and sponsor) of the formerly independent national ski federation, the FFS (which governs the competitive side of the sport) the ESF is wielding ever greater influence these days. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with being strong, but abusing that position of power to further cement a monopoly is sure to rebound against them, eventually.
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Interesting comments Pete. I also remember what you said last season about the French court system being generally fair and this seems to come across in the article where monopolies are attacked constantly but the message still hasn't passed, not even at a governmental level.
As an aside, the current French government really surprises me... but then Gaullism has always been about strong links between state and industry and supporting national champions at the expense of competition so M. Lamour's decree is probably consistent.
Oh and if you are travellling to the slopes by car for the premiere neige, watch out for lorry driver blockades!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 24-11-04 10:53; edited 1 time in total
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It's not necessarily the case that the free guiding offered by (the mostly British) tour operators is actually tuition but I would agree 100% with ESF that it is reducing demand for regular tuition or guiding. In fact, I'm sure ESF are quite aware if all the tour operators stopped offering guiding that they'd not be picking up all the new custom, in fact it's more likely the non-ESF schools would benefit. There's an extent to which ESF are acting in the wider interests of industry here.
I'm also guessing ESF are concerned about something of a loophole in the regulations now about "trainee" instructors attached to ski schools and I can understand this concern.
What seems to be an increasing use by the tour operators of BASI 3's to lead this guiding is also really questionable in my opinion and I'll bet ESF aren't happy about it either.
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I'm a bit concerned about the link between tuition and guiding. If I book a holiday with free guiding, I don't expect the guide to teach me, or lead me over off-piste routes avoiding crevasses etc : I just hope they'll know which pistes suit my style and ability, aren't crowded, finish near an excellent bar etc. I'm only out for a week and don't have the chance to learn the resort as would a local who goes up every weekend : that's where the guiding comes in useful for me.
I haven't had lessons in years, as although not a great skiier I'm competent and (usually) slow enough to stop at will. I'm now coming to the point where I'll be taking private lessons once or twice per holiday, with the specific intention of improving. For *that* i'd go to a ski school. I've perviously had lessons with ESF and although I didn't have the nightmare experiecne others have had, I can say the teacher wasn;t the greatest and didn;t teach me as much as I learnt from instructors elsewhere (one in Italy, two in Andorra: none were native English speakers). Based on that, I'd probaby go to an independent, as last year we had an afternoon with a Teacher from an independent school (David something in Flaine) and based on the smaller class size and his obvious enthusiasm I learnt more from him in 3 hours that in 3 days from any other tutor.
I'm beginning to lose my point and have work to do so I'll sign off and review this later
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| PG wrote: |
But this latest decree does seem more like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut, while gifting the ESF with a further competitive edge against the genuine, law-abiding operators.
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You would have thought that existing regulations would be sufficient to deal with the so called cowboys? It seems that even this is applied patchily with local deals being cooked up if we are to believe some of the information in another very long thread.
The news above about Tour Operators (as opposed to Ski Schools) employing a glut of BASI 3's does smack of something odd goings on though. Maybe they just want their ski guides to have some kind of qualification for liability issues? I wonder if our experts such as Easiski can shed some light on these issues?
Maybe M. Lamour should have set a trainee to staff ratio. I would have thought 2 qualified staff to each trainee teacher or something like that. What about the policy of giving trainees kiddies and beginners to look after? Should these be the people who get qualified staff? Or do you need the qualified staff to hone out some bad habits more advanced skiers have picked up?
[edited for English]
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 24-11-04 11:33; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Actually, I should qualify my remark about that a little. You might expect that some of the people who are attracted to the ski guides positions to be doing their BASI exams and it's not unreasonable if you were recruiting to favor someone with (or doing a BASI 3) over someone without. So, you'd probably expect to see quite a few BASI 3's in France working as guides for TO's.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Any guiding I have had from a tour op has been so casual as to be non-competitive with the ESF. It's more been "that's a nice restaurant....that piste moguls quickly.... this piste gets busy towards close of lifts...shall we press on down this red and then stop for a vin chaud?". Quite informative, but not really worth paying much for.
Surely the response of the ESF should be to consistently raise the standards of it's instructors. Some teach the latest techniques, some don't. Some care, some don't. Some are fantastic examples of gallic surliness, and some are keen for you to improve and will try for you to get the most out of your sessions. I know there are an awful lot of instructors, but it can be done. Many independent ski schools charge a very large premium over ESF - as well as a threat that surely brings with it an opportunity.
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Would have more sympathy with the ESF case if (i) there was any evidence that their standards are the best; and (ii) they didn't have a long track record of using every legal device available to stifle fair competition. Have personally had three separate bad experiences with them:
(i) Tuition in Courchevel 1850 not as good as available from several different independent outfits (e.g. New Generation)
(ii) Pre-booked lessons in one of the independent schools cancelled because the instructors (better than the ESF ones) had been arrested over non-recognition of their BASI qualifications
(iii) Holiday company "guide" replaced by the ESF guide at the insistence of the Courchevel police. The guide provided made no effort to speak to any of us in the group, and explained nothing about the area. I could have done a better job myself given I'd been to the ski area once before.
So regardless of whether the ESF have a genuine case in this instance, I find it more plausible that this new regulation is primarily motivated by protectionism
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You know it makes sense.
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| PG wrote: |
| Gilles Chabert (ESF Chairman) made it quite clear last season that although he welcomed bona fide properly trained instructors from other countries |
The actions of big business leaders frequently belie their utterances for public consumption -- as here.
| Quote: |
| The example of holiday operators including tuition via unqualified personnel in the guise of free guiding as part of the holiday cost was discussed on this forum last year. |
I believe we were talking about offering instruction under the guise of instruction, by a team including BASI 1 instructors and instructors with lesser qualifications.
| Quote: |
| The standards of the profession, not to mention the livelihoods of thousands of French professional instructors, are at stake here, and Chabert fervently believes that he is acting to protect both. |
Yes, he is a protectionist. Protectionists frequently cite concern over standards to protect a monopoly. BT did in the days when you had to wait weeks for the privilege of getting a phone. Opticians swore we'd all go blind if they ever lost their monopoly to purvey spectacles.
| Quote: |
| targeting the cowboys ... The Megève approach |
Perhaps this is "cowboys" in the US sense of upstanding outdoorsmen who never back down from a fight in a righteous cause. It cannot be in the pejorative British sense, because cowboy traders do not build up a loyal customer base providing 85% repeat business.
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| taking a British company to court for providing tuition with personnel lacking the necessary qualifications |
It would be perfectly legal for those personnel to provide instruction if employed by the ESF.
| Quote: |
| abusing that position of power to further cement a monopoly is sure to rebound against them, eventually. |
Before that, it will rebound against many innocent French people who will find their customers have gone to other countries.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Julian T wrote: |
| Would have more sympathy with the ESF case if (i) there was any evidence that their standards are the best; |
ESF and BASI meet the same ISIA standards for the full qualifications, I think that’s evidence enough.
| Julian T wrote: |
| (ii) Pre-booked lessons in one of the independent schools cancelled because the instructors (better than the ESF ones) had been arrested over non-recognition of their BASI qualifications |
Not true. BASI 1 instructors are fully entitled to teach in France, part qualified BASI or ENSA/ESF instructors are not, simple.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Maybe M. Lamour should have set a trainee to staff ratio
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Very sensible davidof and not something we would object to, I suspect. It's the targetting of small operations with less than 10 qualified instructors which smells about this new move. What has the size of school got to do with it? A small, start-up outfit is more likely to aim high and to provide great tuition and customer service or it's just going to go under. The big players with near monopoly status can survive whatever standards they maintain. If ESF want to improve standards those are the outfits they should be encouraging - the little people with enthusiasm and real skills and ability. Stamp out unqualified cowboys by all means. The good independents will bring repeat business back to the resort and maybe some of it will then go ESF's way.
Do ESF have a 10:1 Teacher / Trainee mix ? Seems very high to me and given that a ski school instructor isn't exactly a job for life I doubt if a 10:1 ratio would even be self-sustaining. Same rule should apply to all. By mutual agreement - not ham-fisted legislation.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 24-11-04 11:41; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ise, is it possible to qualify to BASI 1 without passing the Eurotest?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sorry laundryman, but you have taken some quotes out of context and distorted the meaning. A couple of further comments are inaccurate.
| laundryman wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
| Gilles Chabert (ESF Chairman) made it quite clear last season that although he welcomed bona fide properly trained instructors from other countries |
The actions of big business leaders frequently belie their utterances for public consumption -- as here.
That just diverts attention from the point being made. You need to back up such assertions with evidence.
| Quote: |
| The example of holiday operators including tuition via unqualified personnel in the guise of free guiding as part of the holiday cost was discussed on this forum last year. |
I believe we were talking about offering instruction under the guise of instruction, by a team including BASI 1 instructors and instructors with lesser qualifications.
No, it refers to the general principle of using the greyer areas of legislation to provide tuition by unqualified personnel, free of charge, within a holiday package.
| Quote: |
| The standards of the profession, not to mention the livelihoods of thousands of French professional instructors, are at stake here, and Chabert fervently believes that he is acting to protect both. |
Yes, he is a protectionist. Protectionists frequently cite concern over standards to protect a monopoly. BT did in the days when you had to wait weeks for the privilege of getting a phone. Opticians swore we'd all go blind if they ever lost their monopoly to purvey spectacles.
Another assertion. Evidence please. Otherwise it's just more argumentum ad hominem, by attaching the protectionist label.
| Quote: |
| targeting the cowboys ... The Megève approach |
Perhaps this is "cowboys" in the US sense of upstanding outdoorsmen who never back down from a fight in a righteous cause. It cannot be in the pejorative British sense, because cowboy traders do not build up a loyal customer base providing 85% repeat business.
You have deliberately distorted the original quote here. Shame on you! The definition of a cowboy is clear. Teaching when unqualified to do so. Period.
| Quote: |
| taking a British company to court for providing tuition with personnel lacking the necessary qualifications |
It would be perfectly legal for those personnel to provide instruction if employed by the ESF.
Obviously - as it would by any British-run school that had acquired the necessary status to teach skiing in the first place, as well as to employ trainees. The Megeve operation did not have ski school status and was therefore found to have broken the law.
| Quote: |
| abusing that position of power to further cement a monopoly is sure to rebound against them, eventually. |
Before that, it will rebound against many innocent French people who will find their customers have gone to other countries.
I don't have the exact figures, but the vast majority of ski school custom is from French nationals. It is a typical British misconception to assume an inflated sense of the importance of our business in such circumstances.
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Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 24-11-04 11:47; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| laundryman wrote: |
I believe we were talking about offering instruction under the guise of instruction, by a team including BASI 1 instructors and instructors with lesser qualifications.
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Pete may have been thinking about the case of Club Med vs the French State. Club Med were employing part-qualified staff to instruct their guests and claimed that they were exempt from regulation because the instruction was free as guests paid the same price whether or not they took instruction. I believe Club Med eventually lost on appeal. One good reason that this doesn't fly in France is that the state believes that all instruction should be regulated and of course if you apply to offer instruction you must be duly qualified.
I believe you are thinking about certain Megève instructors who are probably running a ski school rather than a winter holiday company to be honest. Leaving aside the purely technical issue of their qualifications the Expansion article would seem to support some of what was said in their defense.
| Quote: |
| targeting the cowboys ... The Megève approach |
Interesting conflation. I suspect Pete is more thinking of a number of instructors, while qualified in their home country such as Russia, have absolutely no qualifications to teach in.. say Courchevel. Of course we come around to the problem of how many ESF instructors have good enough Russian to teach Courchevel's large Russian population?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| ise, is it possible to qualify to BASI 1 without passing the Eurotest? |
Not currently.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
ESF and BASI meet the same ISIA standards for the full qualifications, I think that’s evidence enough.
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This misses the point - Arguing that a BASI 1 instructor makes them a better teacher of average skiers on piste is equivalent to expecting someone with a PhD to be better than an ordinary graduate for teaching GCSE students. The infamous Eurotest (required to reach the level of BASI qualification accepted by the French) was described by the owner of one of the 3 Valleys ski schools as the equivalent of asking your driving instructor to compete with Nigel Mansell.
The best instruction means (i) a good enough qualification, (ii) small class sizes, (iii) a better attitude than "follow me", (iv) decent communication skills. I'm hardly a lone voice in poor personal experience of the ESF - look at the latest thread on ski instruction in Courchevel in the Resorts forum. And you only have to look at the history of court cases against the French authorities, to get them to accept any BASI qualification, to see that there is a track record of protectionism here.
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Julian T, It's certainly "infamous" for those who can't ski a GS course fast enough to pass it! Makes you wonder how all those thousands and thousands of ESF instructors have managed. Maybe a "pot de vin" was involved, do you reckon that's it? 
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The system works based on how close your time is to that set by an expert on the course. I've heard apocryphal stories (doubtless totally untrue) that when foreigners were taking the test, the expert was the local slalom champion, and when the locals were taking the test, it was a middle aged instructor after a good lunch! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Julian T, a variety of nationals will take the same Eurotest course - there's not a Eurotest for 'home nationals' and a seperate Eurotest for 'foreigners' . The time must be set by a skier with a certain number of FIS points - a couple of last season's Eurotest times were set by British skier Emma Carrick-Anderson.
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rob@rar.org.uk, I'm perfectly prepared to believe that there were never any officially separate tests, and the stories I'm referring to date from a while back. But it's also quite plausible that there was not an entirely level playing field in this area (if that's not an inappropriate metaphor for skiing!). I've also met English instructors who had failed to get the necessary BASI 1 qualification solely because of this speed slalom test - they understandably felt aggrieved that there are a significant number of local qualified instructors, who passed the test in their youth, and wouldn't have any hope of doing so today.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| they understandably felt aggrieved that there are a significant number of local qualified instructors, who passed the test in their youth, and wouldn't have any hope of doing so today. |
They have my sympathy - a know a few BASI 1 and 2 who have expressed similar frustrations to me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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This speed test thing has always seemed a nonsense to me. Most skiers are recreational skiers and need someone good at teaching. Being an expert slalom racer seems peripheral to me. Maybe you need a race skier as a teacher if you are heading that way yourself but at the beginner and intermediate levels I think it's unnecessary.
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Pete Horn, I think we've done this one before! As a rule though, from watching the best race skiers when they're having fun, they are also superb free skiers, on and off piste. They wouldn't achieve the racing level they have without putting in years of snow time away from the slalom gates, in all conditions. And those who aren't above average racers, from what I've seen, can struggle a little when free skiing in certain difficult conditions, while the elite racers are still relaxing and having fun. There's got to be a correlation there somewhere. So I suppose I'm suggesting that the best race skiers may be the best all round skiers as well.
But yes - teaching ability is something else, and probably should be given a higher profile, particularly for beginners and early intermediates.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Teaching is given a high profile in the national exams, I'm not sure I really understand what the problem's supposed to be. Most us aspire to be able to make accurate turns at high speed, the Eurotest just reflects that. It's a contentious issue obviously, the implicit suggestion it somehow favours the French doesn't hold much water, there's no shortage of ESF instructors who aren't wild about it either. In fact, there was an ESF instructor on my course the other week that wasn't very keen on it either.
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Poster: A snowHead
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ise,
| Quote: |
the implicit suggestion it somehow favours the French doesn't hold much water
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It may not favour the French versus the Swiss, but it certainly does versus those who grew up in any non-Alpine area. If you haven't been skiing all winter since you could walk, and don't have real snow to practice slalom on for a full season each winter, of course you are at a disadvantage.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm not sure that should be an argument for lowering the standard to accommodate those in question however.
When an Eastern European doctor moves to the UK having studied for two years less than the British equivalent, and with inadequate English, we ask them to continue their studies and pass exams in English. We don't consider that to be protectionist.
In this instance the French are effectively beng asked to dilute their qualification to make it easier for less accomplished skiers to come and take their jobs, sometimes not even paying the expensive French NI/tax and other contributions because they spend less than 6 months in the country.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PG, With doctors' qualifications, people's health is at risk if they are not adequately qualified, so asking those with less training to match the local standards is reasonable. There's no evidence to suggest that an instructor's inability to pass a slalom test causes any risks, nor has it any bearing on their ability to teach recreational skiers.
Now, if you want a debate about whether protectionism is sometimes justified, particularly if competition is "unfair", that's a separate issue, but don't let's pretend that the speed test's prime purpose is anything other than to restrict outside competition.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I could understand the slalom test being a requirement for teachers of racing but how many first time skiers will care if their instructor can or cannot get down a slalom run in a certain number of seconds, some will not even know what a slalom run is, I'm sure they'd much rather have a good teacher, than a good racer who may be a poor teacher, teaching them the basics
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Julian T and PG, The Eurotest thing is very interesting, there are arguments either way, but I think it's a diversion from the topical issue of the recent French legislation or decree or whatever it is.
Let's take it as read that the standards are set in stone. For better or worse, there is agreement on them amongst various national associations. The French government has placed restrictions on the corporate environment in which trainee instructors may work towards reaching these standards. It would seem that recently these have been tightened considerably. The effect is to favour the ESF.
I would welcome comment on the following issues:
- is this an area that governments should regulate?
- do other governments regulate in this field?
- are the French laws/regulations just?
- will they fall foul of European law?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Julian T, the point was that it was the nation receiving the immigrant labour that decided and imposed the standards. Apparently in certain other countries those medical qualifications are considered to be adequate and that they do not place people's health at risk.
Summing up your last but one post, you practically admitted that the British struggle to pass the speed test because on the whole, in comparison to Alpine nation dwellers, they are less accomplished skiers. The French would suggest that you therefore just want to reset the bar at a height that suits you, that the protectionist argument is just a red herring to disguise shortcomings in overall skiing ability. And after a couple of drinks, they would no doubt add "And hell, whose country is it anyway?! France isn't another of your colonies"
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It is my observation that accomplished sports people do not necessarily make good instructors of novices; some do but some are bored or cannot empathise with the problems of people of such low standard.
Also in many sports the technical requirements for instructors of novices are lower than for intermediate or advanced.
As far as I am concerned this limitation in France is either gratuitous and ignorant government interference or it is a deliberate restrictive practise but then I tend to go pop on either account.
Probably it is also stupid - with any service industry the perception of the customer is what matters, right or wrong. If the French government consider that their ski industry is better for a reduced British participation then it doesn't matter. I could not prove it but I would bet that ESF have less custom from British skiers in the long term and the resorts have less custom from British skiers in the long term because of our perception that there is something wrong going on here.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
