 Poster: A snowHead
|
GrahamN's quite right. The "freak" is very obviously doing lots of hip joint internal and external rotation.
From another thread:
| slikedges wrote: |
.... However, even in reality, inside of a well fitting ski boot, the scope for movement in the roll-plane (lateral movement of ankle) is tiny precisely because of heel retention and cuff tightness, as it would be in the tipping-plane (ankle flexion/extension) were it not for the hinge in the boot allowing ankle flexion...
If we take a step back here, what we are asking to happen in an ankle roll is for the perpendicular from the boot-ski interface to move to a different angle from the shin in the roll-plane. For this to happen the line of the boot itself must obviously be able to move to a different angle from the shin in the roll-plane (unless we're able to laterally flex the boot!). As you correctly stated this can be achieved with tight heel loose cuff or with loose heel tight cuff. However with tight heel tight cuff I don't think it's going to be significant. This is partly due to the boot being stiff and partly due to there not being the range or strength of movement anatomically at that level. Try standing with your knees locked straight and hips/pelvis held rigidly - then try lifting both left or right edges of the soles of your boots without any movement at hip joints laterally. |
comprex then perceptively suggested that movement of the calf up and down within the boot represents a further degree of freedom which he was presumably suggesting may allow movement of the boot(=sole of boot)=ski independent of the shin, which must happen if the "ankle" is to produce a roll. I've thought about this. I guess if one's heel can lift a bit and one's weight is not midfoot, but on the balls of one's feet, it is possible that the resulting loosening would allow a foot inversion/eversion movement to move the boot=ski without moving the shin.
This brings us to the point that GrahamN, abc, little tiger, T Bar, have all alluded to in preceding posts: that the terminology of ankle roll, knee roll, hip angulation are anatomically and biomechanically imprecise, they may be part of the ski teaching vernacular but are really colloquial terms and even ski professionals obviously don't all understand exactly the same thing by them. I've always known this as I have a skeleton in my closet (a real one) but have tried to understand the terms for what they are meant to mean.
The question we each have to ask ourselves is not if we can move the soles of our feet within our boots (after all moving your foot inside the boot won't necessarily move the outside of the boot), but if our boots are loose enough to allow a movement of the soles of our feet to move the outside of the boot too (and therefore the sole of the boot, base of the ski and change edge angle). I think there's a little movement. But not enough to be very significant in itself. I do think it's more a muscle tension/mental trigger/fine tuning thing esp for mortals in normal well-fitting boots. Now if we all weakened our boots so we could laterally flex them at the ankle, that'd be a different matter.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 24-05-07 0:04; edited 5 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
abc, Not wishing to prolong this, nor to be a pedant, but when that video was viewed by the top coaches and instructors in my dept. it was very apparent to them what was going on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
| I found that it was my ankle and the muscles in my lower leg that steadied me - is this good or bad? |
A good thing. It shows that you are using the muscles and bones your body was designed to use in the first instance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
slikedges,
it really is pronation not a lateral roll....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
easiski, We must stop agreeing!  I spent the last part of this season forcing myself to ski with loosish boots on tough terrain, and skiing fast. I've rapidly come to the view that having your feet feel the snow without being constricted in the wrong places by the boot definitely helps a hell of a lot with feel and edge control.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If it is not possible to edge a ski without use of the knee then how come a numpty like me can do roller blade turns. Believe me my knees know when they are being used. My boots fit like a glove, I have just put them on and I can definitely edge (rock) my boots with locked knees 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
They are in bed, but it did take me 5 minutes to get them on. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
veeeight, and easiski, you might be interested to know that I too ski with very loose boots,,, and nothing but the stock footbed. Little Tiger will attest to the fact that I often find I'm skiing with buckles undone, and hadn't even noticed the difference. The foot has to be able to pronate and the trusses have to have room to spread and tension. Too "perfect" a fit, too much support under the arch, and the foot loses it's ability to function and provide balance as it's designed to.
I think you may be losing some people because they have the idea you are saying the skis can be edged to high angles solely with the ankle, without the knee having to move at all laterally from a position directly above the foot (shin 90 degrees to the snow).
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
easiski,
| Quote: |
Closing your eyes makes a HUGE difference to your balance.
|
Indeedy. We do this in Pilates classes quite a bit, and I find it difficult. I don't think I'm blessed with much natural balance. And I don't practise these things enough - more balance practice would be good for core strength as well as skiing, I'm sure.
It's just occurred to me that the common mistake that beginners make of looking at their feet instead of the route ahead, must adversely affect their balance: it's not quite skiing with closed eyes, but some of the way there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| veeeight wrote: |
| Martin (and GrahamN) contend that in stiff ski boots, the ankle movement is more of a mental trigger, |
You've clearly completely misread what I've said (although not Martin), not only in this thread, i.e.
| GrahamN wrote: |
| I do believe there's ankle involvement in edging, but as a refining action (a common exercise to practice is, normally after undoing your boots, run along a straightish piste making turns using just your ankles), but I very much doubt it can be the main effect for motions such as these as you are claiming. |
but also in ssh's "ankles,knees,hips" thread here. I would certainly expect a difference in perspective between Martin and me - my boots are snug but certainly not race fit! And slikedges, I don't think there's much movement in the clog (certainly for me), but more in the boot cuff - surely there will normally be some play there as your calf will change in volume as it flexes and extends?
Having tried a few runs tonight doing (or more accurately trying to do) exactly what the guy in the vid is, I now see where you're coming from in the terminology confusion. To give myself more of a chance I undid my boot buckles, but left the powerstraps done up. I got probably about 20 degrees angulation on my outside shin (but only about half that on the inside - so a load more work required there  ), making turns about half a mat wide at the extreme. Starting the movement does involve just the ankles to get the initial edge, but that's only a small turn (just like the now much maligned counter-turn) - maybe 3 degrees tilt at the ankle? - but once the skis start moving obliquely to the direction of motion your shins angulate and femurs start rotating, and this is where the vast majority of the edge angle actually comes from. You still feel as if the action is happening at the ankles, but the movement actually happening is primarily of the shins - as is patently obvious in the vid.
I always start my first run of a session with "ankle-rolls" to get the feel of the edges engaging and to get my centring sorted out. Holding the kees with your hands makes it a much more specific exercise though, and will certainly be in my repertoire in the future.
9/10 for content, 4/10 for analysis/explanation 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
OK Apologies all round for the miscommunication and misinterpretation, Skiing is best taught in person on a mountain
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
veeeight, Don't apologize! It's been instructive and fun. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
little tiger, the lower limb including the feet can pronate/supinate but really it's foot eversion/inversion we're talking about here with movement at the subtalar joint(s)
easiski,
| Quote: |
| ...the turn should be INITIATED by the ankles, but that inevitably involves knee and femur movement following. I am quite happy for peeps to have a bit of heel lift in their boots BTW and personally ski with my boots pretty loose most of the time, which may allow more movement... |
No disagreement with any of that. In fact pretty much exactly my points.
FastMan,
| Quote: |
I think you may be losing some people because they have the idea you are saying the skis can be edged to high angles solely with the ankle, without the knee having to move at all laterally from a position directly above the foot (shin 90 degrees to the snow).
|
As usual you're straight to the heart of the matter. Unfortunately some people seem to believe exactly this.
GrahamN, if your boots weren't done up and the soles of your feet glued to the soles of your boots you'd get some wicked angles with an "ankle roll" particularly with foot inversion edging the inside ski
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
slikedges,
I dunno I was taught the rotation is important in driving ski into hill... and pronation is a 3D thing... I remember discussing this with an examiner and we def decided the rotation was a factor...
and doing an ILE transition the drive of the inside foot from supination into pronation as it is loaded is ALL important.. you can actually feel it... I still feel that sensation when I watch Nyberg... it is VERY distinct doing a slow ILE transition
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
oh and the pronation aids balancing over inside edge of ski... where is fastman I know he has the biomechanics of this better than i do...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| veeeight wrote: |
You know, it took me 4 years to accept that ankle initiation was a real thing. 4 years of arguing against it. Like many, I insisted that it was a trigger. Then I did a lot of research, talking to the WC coaches, athletes, speaking to many many bootfitters that fit at that level.
|
I spent 14 years working with WC coaches and WC bootfitters, while competing on the actual WC circuit, making sure that my boots were stiff and well-fitting enough so that when my lower leg was at a 30 deg angle to the horizontal, my ski was edged at 60 deg to the horizontal - and would stay that way, even with bumps and forces acting on it. All racers skied with boots so snug-fitting that they had to unbuckle them for every lift ride, and Tomba liked his boots so stiff that he buried them in the snow before every race.
OK, so perhaps things have changed in the 12 years since I quit the WC, perhaps racers have boots that are now much softer, laterally, and are so loose-fitting that they have a lot of lateral play in them. Looking at the injected courses they have to race on, I have my doubts.
V8, don't get me wrong, I believe that thinking about rolling your feet within your boots is an excellent mental trigger, and it has obviously worked well for you in your skiing. But the amount of edge angle that it actually imparts to your ski is infinitesimal. When you look at a photo like this: http://www.tiscover.at/at/images/MKA/363/MKA273863at/benni-raich.jpg
and you ask yourself what proportion of his edge angle is achieved using his ankle, the answer must be less then 0.1%.
As for initiation, perhaps "ankle rolling" works for very low-edge-angle turns at very low speeds on gentle terrain, but it is clear from sequences such as this: http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/latest-images/slides/liget-bc-2006-gs-2.html that the primary mechanism for initiating dynamic carved turns is the act of moving the feet out to the side of the body.
This has been an interesting discussion though. Especially hearing about the move away from orthotic footbeds. It would be great to hear CEM or Bud Heishman's viewpoints on this. Of course, they would stand to lose a lot of business if customized footbeds were to fall out of fashion...
Exercises performed in bare feet prove nothing. My whole point is that ski boots restrict natural lateral ankle movements.
But the next time you're on skis, on very flat terrain, try to make railroad turns using PURELY your ankles. Then look down, and I promise that you will see that the lateral angles of your shins will be changing (just like the guy doing the "rollerblade turns" drill). I know this because I tried it, when all this talk of "ankle rolling" first got going. It certainly is much spoken of amongst instructors and examiners, but at best I think it is over-emphasised, and at worst it is a case of "the emperor's new clothes".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
SkiBod,
You have size 10 feet...????????
Anyway, well done, trying to get this thread off a very laboured point. I am all for 'if it works for you' approach but do you have to swallow every little thing hook line and sinker. This thread ain't no fun no more...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| JT wrote: |
| Anyway, well done, trying to get this thread off a very laboured point. I am all for 'if it works for you' approach but do you have to swallow every little thing hook line and sinker. This thread ain't no fun no more... |
Interesting though. I think I'm finally beginning to understand the point that V8 has been making, so credit to him for his persistence in explaining it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
little tiger, the movement under discussion here has a combination of both but is more accurately described as eversion and inversion rather than pronation and supination, which is a complex movement that is more influential in arch support than in the amount you could edge in either direction. Internal and external rotation of the foot or lower limb is different again, I'm afraid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
FastMan, I think you are right about peeps getting stuck on a (mis)interpretation of what veeeight, origianlly wrote. However, I didn't spot the paragraph where he wrote only the ankles - I thought it was clear from the start that he was talking about initiation. Perhaps that's just because I know he's already written about this, or maybe other peeps were rushing to read his post....
slikedges, little tiger, Discussion about the scientific word to be used is - ah - 
veeeight, I don't know about lack of custom footbeds - mine make me feel perfectly balanced. They certainly don't restrict the movement in the boot (such as it is), and I have to say that when I tighten up my boots is when it's either icy, or deep snow, or I'm going to ski hard and therefore feel the need to feel the ski more. I find it fairly surprising to hear that WC guys would actually have (effectively if I've understood you right) looser boots as that would risk broken ankles in a crash.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
easiski, Not looser, still tight in the right places, it is still possible to get a fantastically well fitting boot, but with room in the correct places to allow the appropriate wanted movement.
| Quote: |
However, I didn't spot the paragraph where he wrote only the ankles
|
Neither did I
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Well, as least this topic has made you think about the skiing, open the mind a bit and get another take...that can't be a bad thing.
I generally think that a ski has to be put on edge and held there by all the bodies forces working in unison and (not that I know anything about racing ) these will need to held in place by pretty big muscle groups at the speed they are going at and not a small amount that even us recreational skiers can generate, so intiation/trigger, sure, but anything else sounds like an exercise/drill to me, IMV.
Having said that, I've seen a  or two roll the ankles ( my defintion/understanding ) to good affect, this season..I think..!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| veeeight wrote: |
| Quote: |
However, I didn't spot the paragraph where he wrote only the ankles
|
Neither did I |
So what's this then?
| veeeight wrote: |
So here's a skier ... utlising just his ankles to get the skis on edge (notice how much edge angle he is achieving) and a little knee angulation at the extremes of the turn.
But it's mainly ankles.
|
If abc, Martin Bell, slikedges and I all misunderstood what you're saying, then I think you have to ask yourself why.
I am now getting confused about what your saying the boot punch-out achieved. Is this to allow the foot to move inside the boot, or to aid in the cuff moving wrt the shin? If the former I don't see that it can affect the angle the ski makes against the snow at all - but may have some effect on the pressure distribution across the ski width and so affect edging in a small way. If the latter, then we get into the issues Martin Bell and easiski raised when pushing performance levels.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
veeeight,
| Quote: |
This topic is only one of many where debate is fierce amongst coaches and instructors. There is another mentioned in MartinBell's post above (to do with carving) but I think I'll resist for now.
But why is there so much disagreement about a seemingly simple topic? It's just like chefs arguing about the best way to make a dish.
There is not necessarily one correct answer - everyone is different morphologically, and the correct answer is the one answered by a clock on the racecourse!
I will just say though - people argue vermently about a base angle of 0.5, 0.7, 0.75 etc. If they are quibbling about the advantages of this amount of bevel on their skis, then imagine what benefits/advantages of having your ankles provide that little extra brings...............
|
I'd like to agree with this and leave this thread here, thankyou all and Goodnight. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
GrahamN, and it goes on to say a little knee angulation at the extremes of the turn
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
GrahamN, Grow some big ears, come up with a catch phase and the rest Dis-ney get any easier!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
wow,
note sure what to make of this one, but as i was asked for an opinion here it is....
which muscles are doing the work in the excersises standing on one leg... well the flexor and extensor groups are working pretty hard to balance you, good core stability so gluteus muscles are also key
footbeds in race boots...in the main the reason [from what i understand] that a lot of racers do not have footbeds in their boots is lack of space and tolerences in regulations being tight and getting tighter, the sensation of a;llowing the foot to pronate in the boot is prefered by a few...so why all the punches in the shells.....
well the navicular is a bone as is the malleous, if there is not a shape put in the boot to accomodate these bones then these bones act as the only thing that touches the side of the boot, now AFAIAC the padding in the liners of a production boot is what accomodates some ofthe lumps and bumps of the foot, if there are enlarged bones then a punch in the shell is required. the padding in a race boot is fairly insignificant and the boots are normally worn very tight for precision, due to this the first thing that hits the shell when initiating the turn is the navicular and or the malleous, by punching the boot in this area the boney prominance is accomodated and the soft tissue of the whole side of the foot interfaces with the shell, giving a more precise initiation to the turn. it is all about speading load over a wider area.
it should be noted that these punches should be minimal to accomodate only the boney prominance
if every skier was in a world cup style ski boot, fitted professionally then the need for footbeds may well be reduced, but only as the boot would be so close to the foot. will most people accept the level of precision and fitting required to do this, i think not .
of course all this is dependant on the biomechanics of the individual, the average world cup racer has very good core stability and flexibility.... the average skier does not
now please understand that i have not read every post in this thread, so i may have missed bits
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
CEM, Very interesting and I am now much clearer in my mind about this "punchingout" of the boots. thank you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
i am going to add to the above by saying that footbeds can be used to different things, one thing they should not do is create a blocking of the natural motions of the foot, we need pronation and supination of the foot to walk , run and indeed ski, even the full kork footbed from superfeet, seen as the most rigid ski orthotic on the market is designed to allow the foot to flex naturally. the support is in the rearfoot rather than the arch, it allows the arch to flex during the turn, anyone who owns a pair can take them out their boots stand on them and go through a skiing motion, the product does not hold the foot rigid.
there is a lot of confusion as to regards to this, mostly caused by the people making the product in the first place, the position that the foot is positioned in when the footbed is produced is called sub talar neutral, to obtain this position you pronate the forefoot against the rearfoot, this LOCKS the Mid tarsal joint which produces a rigid postion of the foot for the PRODUCTION of the footbed, when the foot sands on the device the foot is no longer LOCKED and it is allowed to flex naturally, the shell of the boot is probably the biggest contributor to blocking of the foot. using the term locked in the fabrication gets intereperated as locked during use.
look at the orthotic as the foundation of the stacked stance that fastman alluded to earlier in the thread, would you build your house on soft ground without a good foundation 
remember all the usual caveats apply, the footbed has to be well made, the punches in the boot have to be just right and the boot selection has to be good in the first place.
there is also a lot of compensation going on within the foot for other muscular imbalances in the body, with we all had perfect muscle balance and core stability then this whole skiing lark would be really easy..and not nearly so m,uch fun
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CEM,
So you would agree then that a boot that LOCKS the foot from its natural movement (pronation/supination) is a poor boot?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm just going to rally to CEMs cause here and say that the majority of people would benefit from a well made footbed.
I was/am at no point insuinating that people should throw out their footbeds! Unless of course it's causing or masking other problems! I do ski with a foot bed, but in mine it's particular function is more of a heel stabiliser than anything else, as I have been blessed with good strong feet without any of the usual problems
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
veeeight, as an instructor, can you spot people who need footbeds (or need adjustments to their footbeds) when you ski with them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
veeeight,
I'd agree ... but having had one of the pairs that attempted to prevent all pronation as the bootfitter had decided pronation = BAD... and had wicked cramps in my foot from this... I'd say being aware that the footbed needs to allow movements that foot needs to do is also useful... (That foot actually cannot pronate without assistance... it would be permanently supinated if left alone the footbed just gave it more grief)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
