 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What is it about skis that makes some easier to edge than others? For example, I learnt to ski on Atomic C9s which were very easy to carve, but I found as I went faster and on icier pistes they felt wobbly (at speed) and lacked grip on icy pistes. The B1s I have feel very stable - they can scoot across icy pistes on their edges and feel quite 'safe', but I can't get them to carve as well as the Atomics and I dunno, they're a bit cumbersome and boring. I tried Burnin Luvs at Winter Park and when I first tried to carve with them, I struggled. However, after some perserverence - and travelling a bit quicker, I got better. I found them great fun on the bumps and between the trees and so on. Still, they didn't carve as well as my Atomics.
It's probably my technique, but why should I have to try harder to carve the skis with 'more advanced' skis than beginner skis?
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erica2004, Advanced skis are stiffer. This means they require more force(speed/weight) to flex them through there sidecut to the optimise the radius. Sounds a bit tech'y' but i hope you get me. The stiffer ski has two advantages: Better Traction(bite) and stores more energy(edge release=acceleration).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, ta . To improve then, is it better to ski a stiffer ski?
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erica2004,
if the skier can handle it... it may need to be skied more precisely and it can bite back if not done so. It will not forgive some mistakes quite so readily.
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erica2004, it also depends on your weight - something that may be stiff for someone who weighs 60 kg might be as limp as a wet dishcloth for someone weighing 100+ kg
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
If someone is 100+Kg and the same size as someone of 60Kg then they seriously need to lose weight!!
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That may well be so but nonetheless, these people do exist and if they're up for skiing, at least the excercise is a step in the right direction in that respect. The desire to ski better has clearly inspired a few snowHeads to improve their fitness in the past 2-3 years 
Still though, a heavier person will obviously bend a ski more easily and the heavier they are, the more important it will be to take that into account when choosing skis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, wrote:
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eng_ch, Assuming you're using your correct length for your height/weight this shouldn't be a factor.
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I've never quite figured this one out. So, if erica2004 is having trouble bending the Burning Luv, she could go down to a shorter version? Or should she go down to a softer ski such as the One Luv (at the same length)?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| It's probably my technique, but why should I have to try harder to carve the skis with 'more advanced' skis than beginner skis? |
Because "advanced" doesn't refer to the ski rather the skier it is meant for. Which skier may have carving very low on the priority list.
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abc, with the 7 cm size differences going shorter would give her a horse with a much smaller bag of tricks (float, stability at speed, wobblies when flat, edgehold on ice) than designed, probably better to shop between the two models.
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm going to cheat here and post the same video as I did on another thread, but this time to illustrate "edging" (back on topic).
Skier in this video is using purely his ankles and knees to achieve fantastic edge angles, and mega performance out of his skis.
There are no hips involved in this edging process.
Download:
http://www.mytempdir.com/1335615
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| veeeight wrote: |
| I'm going to cheat here and post the same video as I did on another thread, but this time to illustrate "edging" (back on topic). |
Thanks, interesting bit of video. On first viewing my one thought (other than I'll never be able to do that) is that he is putting in a lot of steering angle with foot rotation at the start of each turn. How much is he steering his skis along an arc derived from his ankle/knee edging, and how much is he using his steering angle to turn?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Great question. Well observed.
The first thing to say is that he is getting one hell of a lot of performance out of his skis. Most mortals would be ejected out by the second turn, it's only this skiers skill that keeps him in control.
Second is that this guy is making this look easy.
It's not foot rotation as we know it, at no point do we see a flat ski being pivoted/rotated on the snow. The transitions are very quick and light, and he goes from edge to edge, getting acceleration as soon as he lands on his edges.
What is actually happening (and may be causing you to think that there is tail washing/skidding) is that he is causing his tips of his skis to engage, and bend to tighten the radius of the turn. The tips engage, the turn tightens, then at the point that the skis can't take anymore, the tail *has* to come around, he is deflecting most of this energy along the ski to accelerate, but some is "wasted" by the snow spray.
In this sequence he is not demonstrating clean arc to arc skiing. He does that much later! His carved short radius turns are phenomenal.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, it looks to me as if there's a huge difference in technique between the two guys. Yellow-pants is making much more use of the ski's sidecut, is keeping the skis in contact with the snow much longer through the turn and is much smoother throughout, with fairly S-shaped turns. Mr Orange is unweighting each turn much more, has a lot more upper body rise and fall, and is making the change in direction much more as the weight comes back on the skis, resulting in Z-shaped turns. Witness the much greater amount of snow being kicked up at each turn - yellow-pants only has a little puff at the apex of each (it also looks as if he unweights the left hand turns a bit more than the right-hand ones) with a substantial direction change in the latter half of the turn, whereas orange-suit raises a great cloud as he repressures the skis to head off in the new direction, making most of his turn in a jump through the first half of the turn with less in the 2nd half. Nu-skool vs old-skool?
Both great skiing though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| veeeight wrote: |
| It's not foot rotation as we know it, at no point do we see a flat ski being pivoted/rotated on the snow. The transitions are very quick and light, and he goes from edge to edge, getting acceleration as soon as he lands on his edges. |
On most turns he seems to rebound into the air a little bit, and while he's off the snow the skis change direction by 30º or more. Is that not steering his skis by foot/leg rotation? Once he lands he immediately begins an impressively clean carve, managing the rapid build up of forces so well that he soon rebounds up into the next cross-over (rotating his skis by another 30º or so).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GrahamN, I didn't realise there were two different guys  I watched the video all the way through, then looked frame by frame at the last few seconds of video to see if I could work out was going on. I'll have a closer look at the first guy now!
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rob@rar, Yes, there is a small element of "setting the new steering angle" whilst in the air. Not a crime though. It's my dream to be that versatile!
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Not a crime though. |
Indeed not, a thing to be greatly admired. Ron LeMaster's book explained it very clearly to me with his great photo sequences of WC racers - the initial steering angle they sometimes put in when the gates are tight is quite incredible. Until I read that I'd only really thought about arc-arc carving.
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I have to confess to being virtually completely lost in technical discussions. But when you say there is no hip involvmemt do you mean to start a turn?
There is definitely hip rotation in the sequence as far as my internet connection will allow. Other than bending the knees I don't really see how much knee involvment there is.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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mini-jump turn?
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T Bar, What I mean is that if you watch many recreational skiers, the way they get the ski on edge is to incline (bank or lean) and this results in the hip moving towards the centre of the turn (laterally, or sideways).
In the video above his hip is absolutely static, and the skis edge angles are being created solely by his ankles and knees.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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veeeight,
I think when you are talking about hip I would mean pelvis, there is to my eyes rotation of the hip joint but the pelvis does not appear to tilt from my observation . Though I will confess to not really understanding it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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veeeight, OK so he's the same guy - but he's still skiing in a totally different way in the two clips. Maybe it's different snow conditions causing it - less resilient snow in the second sequence? - but his turns are definitely way sharper in the 2nd. Look at the first dozen or so turns in the orange slow-mo, loads of sideways slip from the heels as he compresses, and you only start getting any buildup of snow under the edges as they bite pretty much only as he gets into the fall-line. Also look at his hair - it's being chucked about way more in the orange than the yellow clip - his upper body is virtually motionless in the first but definitely not in the second.
Hips? Yes T bar I see, and I think this is what veeeight is saying, loads of rotation FROM the hips but virtually none OF the hips - which is good in my book. But
| Quote: |
| What I mean is that if you watch many recreational skiers, the way they get the ski on edge is to incline (bank or lean) and this results in the hip moving towards the centre of the turn (laterally, or sideways). |
surely that's a function of the line you're taking? Skiing straight down the fall-line like this means you get loads of "cross-under" and the hips move in a straight line; but if he were doing more GS-sy turns you'd expect a lot more "cross-over" and the hips should be moving into the turn?.
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| TBar wrote: |
| I think when you are talking about hip I would mean pelvis, there is to my eyes rotation of the hip joint but the pelvis does not appear to tilt from my observation |
Ah! There is rotation of the femurs inside the hip socket, yes, but absolutely no rotation of the pelvis, nor is there any tilting of the pelvis in any direction.
| GrahamN wrote: |
| but his turns are definitely way sharper in the 2nd. |
The top of the pitch when he is in orange is steeper, but I still dispute any z shaped turns. His skis are being deflected and worked along an arc. This is not park are ride skiing so you won't see a clean line...... nor is he trying to demonstrate clean arc to arc skiing.
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| surely that's a function of the line you're taking? Skiing straight down the fall-line like this means you get loads of "cross-under" and the hips move in a straight line; but if he were doing more GS-sy turns you'd expect a lot more "cross-over" and the hips should be moving into the turn?. |
You can still ski short radius turns and use cross over as opposed to cross under transitions. But I think I know what you're getting at, yes, the hip getting involved is a function of the radius of the turn. The larger the radius, the more likely the hip will move inside the turn, *in conjuction with the ankles and knees*.
Nevertheless, you still see many recreational skiers totally blocked and unable to move to the inside using their ankles and knees alone. ie; true rollerblade turns.
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You know it makes sense.
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V8's video shows a skier engaging his skis, then quickly allowing them to rebound underneath his body. The skis are tipped primarily with knee angulation. If the hip was dropped into the turn too, the skier would be more in balance with the forces of the turn, and the rebound would tend to move the skier laterally too. By keeping his Center of Mass over the top of his skis (rather than inside them) he can just let them shoot through underneath him, to the opposite side of his body, pivot them, and engage again in preparation for the next rebound.
This is called CROSS UNDER. The body stays stable, as the skis cross under. If you look closely, you'll see that the skier's CM is actually turning very little. Pretty much just traveling straight down the falline, as the skis cross under back and forth from one side to the other.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| veeeight wrote: |
| Personal opinion - Self taught skiers are, I find, the hardest to get to change their skiing. They also tend to be the ones that get the most frustrated at a higher level when they decide that what they are doing isn't working for them in some terrain. |
Interesting comment as i am self taught get quite frustrated easily as you say but a BASI trainer that taught me how to ski said she was self taught initially as well and tends to find that self taught people understand their bodies better and instinctively know what works and are more willing to drill out the inevitable bad habits. She may have been trying to eliminate my excuses for my lously performances however |
skimottaret
I can say that my main instructors at home (also instructor trainers) have all commented on how maleable I am as a skier... it may take me ages to learn something new... but changing stuff around is less of a problem for me than you would expect... they believe this is because I have always been learning - so have less rigid fixed stuff that is ingrained... They have often groaned about naturally athletic instructors who just CANNOT seem to make a smallish change in their skiing - because they learnt that bad habit so long ago, and because the concept of WORKING on learning is foreign to them... they want to get it NOW!
So I guess it can go both ways self taught can be good or bad...
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Poster: A snowHead
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OK Still on edging. Recently, I've been banging on about how edging should start at the bottom of the kinetic chain (eg; from the snow up), utilising ankles, knees, and finally hips.
Obviously in real life on real snow it's easy to demonstrate, but over the interweb it's slightly harder.
So here's a skier demonstrating some very atheletic rollerblade turns, utlising just his ankles to get the skis on edge (notice how much edge angle he is achieving) and a little knee angulation at the extremes of the turn.
But it's mainly ankles.
Click here to watch RB-Rollerblade-Turns
caveat: this guy is a freak of nature, I have only every seen 1 other person get this much edge angle from their lower joints alone. If you can show me a video of yourself doing this I'll be very impressed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, the guy does well to ski with no medial collateral ligaments
BTW am loving the videos (especially the Guay one).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FtS, that's why we (my colleagues and I) continually refer to him affectionately as a freak of nature!  He is phenomenal, basically he makes most BASI1 trainers look like pussies wallowing in the snow.
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Frosty the Snowman, if you liked the Guay video, check out the Nyberg video in the same link (in the free skiing collection too).
http://www.youcanski.com/video/video_index_en.htm
His technique so simple, yet so precise. Absolutely no wasted movement. The ILE is so clear to see. Quite interesting how alike these guys technique and transitions are in these videos.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In the Eric Guay video, he is not "using his ankles to edge his skis". If he was, then his shins would be moving laterally within his boots, and the angle of his shin relative to his ski would change. It does not, it remains constantly at 90 degrees.
To edge your skis using your ankles, your shins would need to remain vertical, with the only change of alignment coming in the feet and the skis.
He may be trying to "roll his feet", but the because of the confines of the ski boots, it remains purely a mental trigger for the knee rolling which, along with lateral foot displacement, is what actually provides the mechanics of edging.
Sorry to bang on about this again, but this idea of actually being able to alter the edge angle of your skis PURELY using the ankles, while encased in stiff boots, is another popular myth or misconception that needs to be nipped in the bud.
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| Quote: |
Sorry to bang on about this again, but this idea of actually being able to alter the edge angle of your skis PURELY using the ankles, while encased in stiff boots, is another popular myth or misconception that needs to be nipped in the bud.
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And I'm saying the opposite (here we go, head above parapet again) . Many of the WC guys now (Bode included) have punches in their boots specifically in the navicular area and the medial malleolus to enable the ankle to roll within the confines of their stiff ski boots.
Have you seen the guy above in the rollerblade drill? His knees are hardly moving yet he achieves large edge angles.
I guess this is one of those schools of thoughts that diverge at this level!
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What do people mean by knee rolling? I find it very difficult to move my knee joint in any plane other than flexion/extension any other movement of the knees comes from the hips surely?
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T Bar,
here is a quote
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| To appreciate how this works, we need to look at the entire leg in locomotion. The swing phase of walking is simple, but as soon as the foot touches the ground, the entire leg rotates inward slightly as it absorbs the shock. The foot, ankle, knee and hip all participate in this motion, known by specialists as pronation. |
from http://www.goanimal.com/newsletters/2003/butts/butts.html
I was taught that allowing feet to be able to pronate and this process to occur is important to skiing... I think that is why veeeights folks have the punches to allow pronation... that is how feet are built to take loads... and distribute to body...
So yes i think knee rolling involves all of the leg/foot... the hard bit is surely are working out what degree of motion you want to allow where and help where to end up with the result you want???
Or maybe that is just how I learn it 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
He may be trying to "roll his feet", but the because of the confines of the ski boots, it remains purely a mental trigger for the knee rolling which, along with lateral foot displacement, is what actually provides the mechanics of edging.
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| Quote: |
What do people mean by knee rolling? I find it very difficult to move my knee joint in any plane other than flexion/extension any other movement of the knees comes from the hips surely?
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That's the trouble of trying to describe in words of what the body is doing.
It's one thing to say "move my knee joint", quite another to say "move my knee". The knee itselt doesn't need to move much laterally. If you rotate your thigh, the lower leg moves left and right!
Is that knee edging? Or is that hip edging? My take on reading these threads and watching the video. I'd say that's knee edging instead of hip edging, in which the hip doesn't move laterally. While in a hip edging, even the upper leg (thigh) moves beyond vertical.
Now, Martin is correct that the guy rolled more than his ankle. Whether his calling it knee rolling while v8 call that ankle rolling, I think it's just a name.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| utlising just his ankles to get the skis on edge (notice how much edge angle he is achieving) and a little knee angulation at the extremes of the turn. |
I'm sorry, but you're clearly using the English language in a totally different way to normal. If he were doing it only with his ankles then his shins would remain virtually stationary and his boots would be changing angle wrt his lower legs, as Martin Bell points out. This is manifestly not happening in that vid - the knees stay roughly in the same position, but there's huge amounts of angulation going on at them. Notwithstanding him being a "freak of nature" I would be very surprised if there's not a fair amount of rotation of the femur along its long axis too, it's just not noticeable with the thighs being virtually horizontal. If it's all done at the knees (or even more so at the ankles) he should be able to do the same standing pretty much upright.
I do believe there's ankle involvement in edging, but as a refining action (a common exercise to practice is, normally after undoing your boots, run along a straightish piste making turns using just your ankles), but I very much doubt it can be the main effect for motions such as these as you are claiming.
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