Skier dies in La Plagne

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I dont' imagine we'll agree on this, but so far no one's ever had a negative reaction so until that happens i'll continue where unavoidable and no passing place is anywhere to be seen. I can't think i've done it more than a few times and it's aways been very well taken.

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@rob@rar, when I was learning and a bit jumpy I would far rather have some warning (not a full on shout though) than someone just come zipping by. I always slow down to pass (if at all) on cat tracks but, as my mother always taught me, do unto others...

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Jeez, I give up.

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rob's not often wrong but I think we've now got to a stage where people are talking at cross purposes. I'm on the side that says more data is better than less so if I get a audible cue that somebody is immediately behind or alongside me I tend to find that useful so I know it would be better for me to progress with my current path or movement pattern. Now others might interpret that as harassment or be sticklers for their own right of way or be reduced to jelly at the thought of someone within 5 m of them. As there isn't anything in the code saying "You shall not alert other slope users to your presence" I don't think there is a right or wrong here. Obviously going full Brian Blessed might verge on the rude.

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@geeo, It's not that I'm stupid, it's just that on the internet, where people can play the hard man, there are many people, seeming yourself included, who look at posts in the worst way that they could have been meant. Without being open minded and just thinking the worst in people and constructing their response to interpret the post in a way that finds it offensive.

You've seen my post and you've seen my clarification, can you not see that it is you who has completely mis-interpreted the first, and then needed it explained? Perhaps the fact that you needed it explained proves that it is in fact you who is stupid.

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@Dave of the Marmottes, just boarded a flight so can't reply fully, but how do you know what kind of skier is in front of you? And how often do you get passed on a cat track and the manner of your skiing prompts an audible warning which you would find useful?

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@spyderjon, I was going to say because he's such a good skier, but if you're happy to say that to your copilot...

You know it makes sense.

Yeah no problem. To think of recent examples I've been backed up behind traffic so a cue that someone else is coming to my right prevents me making my pass at that point. NB in the sort of places that take significant deliberate navigation to get to not where a genuinely nervous skier is going to be.

And places like I've mentioned before where a 3 or 4 lift system is filtering back to a single lift at the end of the day and 3 or 4 abreast on a single cattrack is the norm.

I don't spend much time near anyone and will step off piste to let traffic clear out if necessary so this isn't a huge deal in reality for me but I do think there is a part of self awareness that should mean that people are responsible enough to recognise that high traffic "commuter" routes aren't the place for them to do exactly as they wish: both in front and behind.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Can I please just clarify my status on all above points because I seem to be being treated as a hooligan who goes around pushing people off skis. Obviously there are some trolls here that you cannot satisfy, but if @geeo is correct and I am in fact just stupid then perhaps it needs some clarity.

Pushing smaller skiers out of the way
When I started out - skiing daily, I was aware that I was a large skier and when cut up by other people, with them doing something dangerous, and finding myself in a position where I was about to hit them (this happened twice, in a year of frequent skiing)... I would do everything in my power to avoid them; even where it meant doing something dangerous so as to cause a greater danger to myself. In one of the two incidents, I broke a bone in my face. I have since decided that it might have been better for me, to instead have hit the other person, or indeed, pushed them out of the way. It may even be safer for them too, and safer for other people skiing in the same area. Ultimately, the person who has caused the incident is the person who has the least right to come off no harm done; and I should not have a holiday ending injury because I didn't want to hurt somebody else, who caused it the incident to begin with. I think this policy is completely reasonable. OBVIOUSLY this is last choice and going past safely without harming anyone's fun is always the preference.

Contrary to Pruman's trolling, I do not simply ski around all day, pushing over small people for sh*ts and giggles. Although now maybe as he's suggested it, I might learn to snowboard, grow a beard, call everyone dude, and make a gopro video of me pushing over small people and shouting to all my mates about how rad it is.

Shouting "on your left" / "on your right" when coming up behind somebody a bit fast
I stated in the most obvious method possible (but apparently still not obvious enough) that this is not good practice and is not acceptable as a method of passing slower skiers. HOWEVER, I also think that, if you are the slower skier in front, it would be wise to listen to these commands, if you understand the language that you are receiving them in. It's all very well staying where you are and thinking "well I'm in the right, these are the FIS rules" but right of way doesn't buy you anything against something heavy hitting you at speed. So therefore it would be wise to attempt to comply with shouted warnings, which may exist because either (a) the person behind you is an asshat, or (b) the person behind you has suffered an exceptional set of circumstances which has caused them to come up behind you a bit quick and is genuinely trying to protect you as their other options are limited. FIS rules might protect you with the ski patrol, but they won't keep you out of hospital.

Saying that skiing off piste is safer
Contrary to how it was taken, I was not attempting to come across as Gnarly McGnarFace. I was more attempting to point out that it's a common misconception that skiing off piste is more dangerous because you are dealing with the likes of nature, and yes it's true that nature can be a cruel mistress. The point being that people who ski off-piste, especially in areas with avalanche risk, tend to take all the risks into account when partaking in those activities. The trouble with people in pisted areas is that they seem to think that because there are sign posts, fences and ski patrol, they can switch off a bit because it's a managed, safety-approved activity. If you climb Snowdon at home, you will find more accidents on the easy route than on the hardcore climbing routes... partly because there are more people using them, and partly because the kind of people who use the easy public route are often blissfully naive to any amount of knowledge or preparation or correct equipment etc. Ultimately the point I was making that in any situation, people are often the most dangerous part about it because people are unpredictable. More unpredictable than nature. With nature, we've learned many of the formulae and the tell tale signs that bad things are about to happen. People do things for reasons that nobody knows. The human brain is still fairly unchartered territory.

So no, I am not a risk taker, inconsiderate skier or a violent person who pushes kids off their skis.

I think people need to look at posts and ask themselves if it's unreasonable, or even ask the poster if they can clarify, rather than just wading in with your size 9 assumptions and angry responses. I don't think many, if any skiers really go out on the mountain with a conscious malicious intent or disregard for others' safety... people just need to be woken up that it's a potentially dangerous activity and you can't afford to treat other people as of secondary importance or treat crashes as an accepted part of the sport. But people do, and that is the biggest problem. People.

Sorry that's a really long post but I wanted to clarify where I actually stand on it, rather than seeing various internet trolls' perverse interpretations of it.

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@tangowaggon, valid, but I felt like writing one clarified point of view rather than people forming their opinions on 5 pages of deliberate misinterpretations

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The FIS rules are simple and explicit. It might be an idea if those who would like to add "enhancements" to the FIS rules go through the channels and get them introduced into the FIS rules in a formal way. Then everyone will know about them. At the moment the person in front has the absolute right to do what ever they want. If you are behind, its your job to pass safely. Its a simple enough rule. If you are not a good enough a skier to ski in a way that allows you to do this, then go take some lessons until you are , simples.

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I was on the Pre Saint Esprit lift up to Les Arcs 2000 today and saw the patrol people and medics doing what looked like CPR on some poor soul on the piste between 2000 and 1950. I'm fairly sure there was someone else being attended to, so I guess it was a collision. They were still doing the CPR when I passed by about a half hour later. I hope it wasn't as bad as it looked.

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@rob@rar, yes, for the avoidance of doubt, that's what I'm saying. But people simply don't know the rules and I know for a fact that the FIS Rules are used in court to determine right and wrong so really people should. Not enough instructors talk about it to their pupils before they set off, and resorts don't seem do anything useful at all. The time to get the message over is at the point of sale of a lift pass.

The annoying and pointless (mainly French) habit of pole tapping or shouting from behind will never make it into ze rules. It simply confuses and has people making moves they don't want to be making.

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@swiftoid, I've often seen them printed on the back piste maps, along with all sorts of other random stuff.
I've seen them on the walls of lift offices fighting for attention with posters of happy skiers or signs to the loo and I've seen them on posters on lift pylons in between posters advertising irrelevant fripperies.
Given the presentation, perhaps it's unsurprising people don't read/remember them...

Couldn't insurance companies do more encourage safe behaviour? After all, they're the ones effectively laying odds on people being beset by misfortune.
OK, so knowing the rules and having a better awareness of where risks lie and what constitutes safe behaviour, don't guarantee your safety but must surely improve it, making you a lower risk overall and hence worthy of a smaller premium, no? And there's the incentive.

Say if there was an approved, basic mountain safety course that people could go on (perhaps as little as a half day) that insurance companies took as proof that someone was aware at least of the basics and awarded a discount accordingly.
Off the top o' me head, if the course cost say £25 and knocked a similar amount off your premium, you'd be quits first year and quids in thereafter. Give it a 5 year validity to get people to refresh periodically. Maybe roll it in with a basic first aid course and make a full day of it?

Skiing is unregulated and I'd like it to stay that way (I mean, who wants to have to pass a test before being allowed off the green slopes?) but as a result, there's no differentiation between one who goes cautiously, bothers to get tuition, to learn the FIS rules and respect them and one who just turns up and throws themselves down the hill as some kind of macho survival challenge.
Those who bother to be safe, are effectively covering the cost of the indiscretions of of the irresponsible through higher premiums while being put at increased risk to boot.

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@jtr, sounds nasty, never nice to see anyone getting that kind of medical attention. In Ski Amadé the other week we got held in a lift queue because a helicopter had to take off with someone in it Sad

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@admin, @dp, I don't see a course as a viable solution for several reasons:
1.Resorts can't afford to discourage skiers/boarders and this would be a major disincentive for many.
2. Insurance companies won't want to Give discounts for this. I doubt they would be convinced by either the business case or whether it will actually have a significant impact on the accident rate.

I do think there is a problem that not enough people know the FIS rules. From what I've seen of my children's tuition in France, Italy and Austria, the rules are simply not taught in many ski schools. They should be. Perhaps you should have to complete a quick test before being awarded your next level. That test could be oral and informal.

Overall, I think there should be greater awareness of the rules. I suspect a few of the skiers I know well don't even know the rules exist. Every piste map should carry them. Put posters of them in bubbles/cable cars, lift queues. Maybe have online quizzes on insurance company websites. Etc.

Ultimately, I think the majority of accidents would not be avoided by better knowledge of the rules. (Although where to stop on a piste and looking before setting off are habits that could easily be ingrained).

You know it makes sense.

The TO could help by spending five minutes on the transfer going through the rules. They could come up with a fun informative video to show like some flight safety ones.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Issuing a 'license' (Which is what is being implied) showing you can control yourself in under observed conditions is one thing; actively controlling yourself while out in 'the wild' is another. You'd need to implement some kind on internationally recognised license, which everyone would have to agree on, and the international community can't even agree on standards of instructors. And a resort saying "Yes, this guy can ski safely" opens them up for all kinds of potential legal issues should you then go on to wipe out a ski-school of nuns carrying kittens in baskets.

Better to invest in eyes on the ground who can pull up people acting like twunts on their dangerous skiing and issue on-the-spot fines as well as pulling passes.

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I don't have a problem with a voluntary training course recognised by insurance companies, especially if it made insurance a bit cheaper. However, I have my doubts that it would make insurance cheaper, but not working in that industry I could be wildly wrong, nor contribute much to safety improvements. I suppose you could look to the Guild of Advanced Motorists (or whatever it's called) and the benefits that they offer as one example, although it's not going to help much if you have passed a test saying your are a Super Safe Skier if someone ploughs (actually, carves being a more appropriate term) in to the back of you.

It seems to me that a lack of awareness of the rules isn't really the problem. It's a lack of respect for the people you share the slopes with. Knowing what your responsibilities are won't help if you don't want to take your responsibilities seriously.

I don't think there is an easy or obvious answer to reducing the number of dangerous skiing incidents which involve other people, but I think lift company piste patrols is part of the solution. They could offer advice, warnings and in the most egregious cases cancel lift passes for a set out of time.

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Most of the dangerous incidents that I have seen, I would not expect alcohol to be a factor.
Shyte skiing/boarding, yes, most definitely. Shyte both in terms of technical skill and ability, and in terms of consideration of other piste users, FIS code etc.

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It's fairly simple (but unlikely to ever happen). Buy a lift pass and agree that you have read and understood the rules (or Ts&Cs if you prefer) and the consequences of breaking them. A bit like going skydiving or hiring a car. Resorts won't do it though - it slows down the sales process, it means people having to carry a form of ID and registering, it looks like anti fun, nobody reads Ts&Cs anyway, you'd need it all in many languages. So, given that nothing will change, the actual answer is to avoid places that get that busy, maybe 'downgrade' to somewhere with a small bed base - especially if you are taking kids who are vulnerable to being skittled by bigger and faster moving pole-tapping cretins.

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My partner was having beginner lessons in Meribel a few years back and deliberately fell over to avoid wiping out a small child. The instructor asked her why and then proceeded to tell her that the child should have got out of the way! If that's the attitude of instructors then what chance do people have of learning the FIS rules?

In the teenagers it's not alcohol it is usually bravado so perhaps making the under 18's ski with a responsible adult would help?

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I clipped the back of my son's skis skiing with him last year. I was inattentive for a second, I wouldn't of clipped someone else as I wouldn't ski that close to a stranger, but I still clipped him. Luckily he as unaffected, I fell like a sack of spuds onto hard piste, which certainly got the blood flowing. It was totally my fault and reminded me about giving myself space to make mistakes...

As to the shouting, tapping poles etc. If someone is coming up on me I don't mind them tapping their poles, so I get clue they are coming and a sense of the direction it doesn't phase me, my wife however who isn't a confident skier is visibly put off by these sorts of actions and may well end up just stopping, which could make the situation much worse.

Help!!

Skier dies in La Plagne

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