 Poster: A snowHead
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Real world performance gains are limited year on year so why do people buy new skis? And not last years at a massive discount? I actually bought my boots as they changed colour and got £100 off for the privilege, I can live with an older design!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Norrin Radd,
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Real world performance gains are limited year on year so why do people buy new skis? And not last years at a massive discount?
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I have not the slightest idea. I stopped owning my own skis a few years back, but until then I'd only think of changing them if they were completely knackered. Maybe I was just being shallow chucking out my 204cm GS skis just because I was starting to feel silly standing in the cable car with skis twice the length of everyone else! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Real world performance gains are limited year on year so why do people buy new skis?
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Because skis actually wear out. But my suggestion is to buy at the end os the season when big discounts can be obtained
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@johnE, I think what he meant was "Why do people buy new skis even when their old ones haven't worn out?"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Same as, almost(!?!), why people buy new cars, clothes, shoes, etc before they have worn out. Because... they want, can, etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I bet all my skis look and perform significantly differently to your cheapest hire skis. But unless you have ski blindness you'll have already noticed that some people ski better than others. The ski itself isn't a big deal ( Bode Miller started killing it in racing on a pair of off the shelf K2 fours) but its spectrum of application is. Generally speaking more £ will get you greater width, torsional rigidity, stiffer flex, less flappiness at speed etc etc. But some hire shops are absolute bandits so you do need to know what you want.
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The last time I hired skis was in Gresoney. We went into the hire shop and basically asked what skis they had and walked around the shop until I found something interesting (red Heads). The technician then asked me what I wanted the bindings set to and apart from an instruction not to stick the tails in the snow when leaving them outside a restaurant that was that. There was no talk of precious metals.
@foxtrotzulu,
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"Why do people buy new skis even when their old ones haven't worn out?"
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A very good question, which I am not qualified to answer
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Skiing since 1988?
Don't understand the difference between duff kit and race-prepped kit?
Never sharpened your edges?
I don't believe you!
If what you say is true, as well as some new kit, you'll probably be in need of lessons - or you won't be able to make the skilful movements required to work the skis.
Have a look at your boots too. Old floppy boots are no good.
Just in case you need it, here's my £0.02 worth...
I'd recommend a Rossi Master "GS" ski (23m s/c ), or a Rossi Hero "GS" (~19m s/c). Ski Length - go for at least 175cm.
(I read that you are 6'1'' and 90kg. So ski length = 185cm would be my recommendation. Long skis will bend into a carve better for a given stiffness).
(I put GS in quotes, because they meet the old GS specs, but not the current full FIS 35m sidecut regs. So don't get Full FIS!!.)
I recommend ~21m sidecut because they deliver bigger range of output carve-turn radius than you would get out of a pair of Slalom skis (which would typically be L=165, Rs/c = 11m).
(A ski starts to carve at Turn Radius = the sidecut radius. Then as you incline them on edge, the carve turn radius gets tighter and tighter.)
My only word of warning is: There's no way back!
You will never be satisfied skyting around on old soft duff rental kit again! You'll be spending every evening fettling your edges to 87 Degrees!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| johnE wrote: |
@foxtrotzulu,
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"Why do people buy new skis even when their old ones haven't worn out?"
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A very good question, which I am not qualified to answer |
Could it be as simple as the fact that when people get better at skiing, or change their skiing style, or their objectives; they learn more about their own skiing style / interests and indeed ability, and buy the ski which gives them the most enjoyment?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 19-12-16 12:34; edited 1 time in total
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
(I put GS in quotes, because they meet the old GS specs, but not the current full FIS 35m sidecut regs. So don't get Full FIS!!.)
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Never go Full FIS
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="Kowal.Ski"][quote]
I quite agree @emwmarine - hence the original question. I'm quite happy to spend extra but only for a better experience. If it made no difference then I'd rather the money was in my pocket. If I ever feel that the skis don't feel right, I get them switched - but this has only ever happened twice.
[quote]
In that case there is only one answer to your question. Try better skis. Lots of people answering this thread have testified to the difference good skis has made to them.
To not spend a few quid trying better ones to see what difference it makes to you would be barking.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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One other thing, if you like turning then see if the shop does a slalom ski for hire. Great fun for really short turns and you can also use them for medium sized fast turns too.
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One other thing, if you like turning then see if the shop does a slalom ski for hire. Great fun for really short turns and you can also use them for medium sized fast turns too.
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Apologies if this is a dumb question, but are slalom skis useful for someone trying to tackle steep narrow slopes and/or maybe even snowdomes where there isn't much width (or would standard 'all mountain' skis be better for a non-racer, fairly light on experience)?
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You know it makes sense.
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Good question. I skied for 6 years on a 98mm underfoot all mountain ski which were fine at everything apart from short turns. But then getting to know a SL ski on the piste really improved my technique as it was a lot more precise and also a bit less forgiving of sloppy technique.
The so called 'cheater skis' are really good too, sort of between a SL and a GS ski so again a good piste based all rounder.
In answer to your question, if you are on steep pistes which are also narrow I find in my experience that a SL ski works really well, you can put in lots of turns so as not to build up too much speed but can also do shallower turns with longer arcs when you want to. A GS style ski is more stable and lets you go faster but it's hard work to make lots of rapid turns on them. There are lots skis which are softer and more forgiving than the type professional racers use, my old SL skis are just the standard ones so are not too much hard work. I've known quite a few people with a few good weeks behind them who have rented slalom skis and really enjoyed them.
As you say that you are light on experience I would maybe go more for a general piste ski with a turn radius of 14 - 17m as most of the modern SL skis are approx 11.5m and turn really quickly, they can catch you out if you are not used to them. But I love them as a fun piste ski.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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You can deploy your energy and wits to saving money, or making money. The second strategy will in the long run deliver a lot more pleasure and money.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| vjmehra wrote: |
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One other thing, if you like turning then see if the shop does a slalom ski for hire. Great fun for really short turns and you can also use them for medium sized fast turns too.
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Apologies if this is a dumb question, but are slalom skis useful for someone trying to tackle steep narrow slopes and/or maybe even snowdomes where there isn't much width (or would standard 'all mountain' skis be better for a non-racer, fairly light on experience)? |
All I can say is that the only pair of FIS-spec GS skis I ever rode (35m turn radius) were absolutely terrifying and whilst yes, they'd be ideal for keeping nice narrow turns in a narrow space... well you would only get about 2 turns into your average snowdome and when you got to the bottom you'd be doing about 80mph so perhaps not a great idea
As I alluded to above, I have Scott Black Majic for snowdomes, which are shorter than they should be and narrow underfoot. I think that's what you really want - a fairly narrow, rockered, easy to throw around ski for piecing together short turns and generally larking about.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thank you for the advice btw, sounds like slalom skis/those with a short turn radius could be worth a go at some point, which makes sense!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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vjmehra wrote:
Quote:
One other thing, if you like turning then see if the shop does a slalom ski for hire. Great fun for really short turns and you can also use them for medium sized fast turns too.
Apologies if this is a dumb question, but are slalom skis useful for someone trying to tackle steep narrow slopes and/or maybe even snowdomes where there isn't much width (or would standard 'all mountain' skis be better for a non-racer, fairly light on experience)?
All I can say is that the only pair of FIS-spec GS skis I ever rode (35m turn radius) were absolutely terrifying and whilst yes, they'd be ideal for keeping nice narrow turns in a narrow space... well you would only get about 2 turns into your average snowdome and when you got to the bottom you'd be doing about 80mph so perhaps not a great idea
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Slalom skis and GS skis are compleyely different beasts. Slalom skis are designed for very tight turns. They typically have a 11m ish radius. For the indoor race series in the UK there will be 20+ gates (turns) not the 2 turns @dp managed. I have to confess that on smooth hard pack steepish snow I have really enjoyed proper race skis. The grip and turning power is phenomenal. However, on soft snow and powder they have proved difficult
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@johnE, Yup... very different skis. I was offered a ride on some Super G skis with a 45m radius.... I turned them down, I prefer to live 
I have seen people ski fantastically off piste on SL and GS skis... but they were ski instructors.
The SL skis shops hire out will not be FIS spec. I got some Atomic Redster double deckers for my first proper go on a slalom ski and they were stiff enough, no way could I have coped with a high level race ski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Whilst I like to take advantage of the latest technology we are, like in all sports, a marketing mans dream to sell shiny new kit too. You are right to be suspicious. A lot of it is psychological and improvements year to year are so minimal I doubt a bunch of amateurs could really tell. I would however pay a bit more for a higher end rental ski personally as I hate a limp lifeless ski. Read the reviews of skis before you go and get a model that sounds right for how you want to ski and may let you improve a level.
If you are a light in weight intermediate skier skiing on piste 99% of the time you can probably get away with a softer ski still performing ok, fif you're a heavier ahem 'athlete'... a stiffer ski with some length gives more kick out of the turns so will get you moving down the mountain faster and holding an edge better, needs to be skied more aggressively which I think develops the intermediate skier's technique better.
I bought a pair of Fischer AMC73s a few years ago for a holiday in Austria - cant remember what I was on before (intermmediate K2 ski I think) but the difference in performance of these skis was palpable and had me skiing better instantly in terms of holding an edge and transition speed. One of the best skis I've used and were perfect for ripping around Saalbach.
Just to contradict myself of course might be worth considering that in the 1970s and 1980s there were terrific skiers around and they skied on equipment we'd laugh at nowadays as 'not fit for purpose' or even ridiculous. Watch old footage of Scott Schmidt and Plake! It's the workman, not the tools!! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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You get the same arguments with photography. "It's the photographer not the camera", they whine across the internet. Indeed it is. Even so you'll never see a decent photographer using garbage gear.
It's the same with snow sports. Sure, I could probably ride a dinner tray if I had to, but I choose not to.
I don't believe anyone could spend enough time to become competent and not discover the benefits of good equipment. Either it's a troll, or the OP really is lolling around on beginner kit.
And although modern kit is easier to ride than the old stuff, the difference between good and beginner gear has not changed much. I noticed that obvious difference myself at that time.
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@Kowal.Ski, It's like saying... I've been driving a Lada for years. Is there any difference driving a newer/better/more expensive car?
If you want to find out either book a better standard or if you really want to find out on the cheap, book your usual price set but go back to the shop and ask if you can try a better set for the last day. They'll often do that and not charge you.
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My favourite Churchill quote
"my tastes are simple, I like only the best".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Guys, I really appreciate all of these comments, although I don't claim (or even want) to understand the more technical ones.
@adithorp
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if you really want to find out on the cheap, book your usual price set but go back to the shop and ask if you can try a better set for the last day. They'll often do that and not charge you.
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This is my plan this year. I have never thought about about my skis before this year as I have always been delighted with my "cheap" hire skis but this year I started to wonder "what if...". As far as I am aware my skis have been pretty much the same as the other ones being hired from the ski shop and also the ones sat next to me on chair lifts (except for those diddy ones and the ones split at the front but they are rare). This year I will take a good look at what is in the shop and after being allocated mine I will ask if there are any better skis and if I can maybe take them for a spin to see if I prefer them.
@philwig
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I don't believe anyone could spend enough time to become competent and not discover the benefits of good equipment. Either it's a troll, or the OP really is lolling around on beginner kit
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I do not believe I have been skiing all these years on beginner kit - even if that is what I have been paying for. Each year I complete my profile with height/weight/shoe size and ability which I usually declare as "advanced". I get given skis which allow me to ski with complete control on all pistes I come across (I don't care for off piste).
@SkiPresto,
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Skiing since 1988?
Don't understand the difference between duff kit and race-prepped kit?
Never sharpened your edges?
I don't believe you!
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I'll admit I don't know what race-prepped kit is - but I don't race - I just ski for pleasure. As for knowing duff kit - if the skis don't do exactly what I want them to then I'd get them changed. If they do then they are not duff. I certainly know if the edges are good. I have never sharpened them myself I've had them sharpened on two separate occasions when I notice them sliding and the difference was very apparent.
Just so that you know where I am coming from, I am definitely not in the market for buying/owning my own skis. The question is only which category to hire. From what I have heard from some people during this investigation, there is a chance that paying more might not even change the skis that I am eventually given.
This year I have again opted for the cheapest but will certainly pay more attention to the skis I am given with a view to finding out what might be better and hopefully even trying them out. What is definite though is that it has never been the skis that have spoilt my skiing experience. I have had many, many excellent weeks on the snow but only 3 that I can remember being poor and they were entirely down to the weather - and they still had their excellent moments showing that the skis were not to blame.
That's probably my lot on this topic now that I have booked my skis. It has got me thinking if nothing else.
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It's a BASI Trainer 'avvin a larf!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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After skiing on Rossignol Hero Short Turn skis (and having a lot of fun on them) for two seasons, I thought earlier this week that I owed it to myself to try a few other skis. (I have a pair of five or six year old Volkl Tigersharks, which I also use when the mood takes me, but wanted to see what the latest batch of skis might offer).
The first I tried were the highly thought of Nordica Dobermann Spitfires - too stiff for me and couldn't wait to take them back. The next pair (as Scarpa will attest) were the Rossignol Hero Elite Long Turn - okay but unexciting, I thought, and not as much fun as the Short Turn version. So I took them back, and was just about to retrieve my Rossi Hero ST's and resign myself to skiing on them for the foreseeable future, when it was suggested that I try the Elan Amphibio 16 Ti2. These I loved from the outset - smooth, easy-carving, fast, stable, versatile - until I hit some moguls, when I missed my Rossi Hero ST's. However I won't be taking these Elans back and am looking forward to becoming better acquainted with them.
My experience of trying out these skis over the last few days has made me realise (a) how different one pair of skis is from another, (b) how compatibility between skier and ski is a very subjective thing - depending very much on competence level, preferred style and what one is used to.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| johnE wrote: |
Slalom skis and GS skis are compleyely different beasts. Slalom skis are designed for very tight turns. They typically have a 11m ish radius. For the indoor race series in the UK there will be 20+ gates (turns) not the 2 turns @dp managed. I have to confess that on smooth hard pack steepish snow I have really enjoyed proper race skis. The grip and turning power is phenomenal. However, on soft snow and powder they have proved difficult |
Sorry there was talk of GS skis above so I got confused.
Yes the GS skis were absolutely fantastic in terms of edge hold and speed... I truly love that feeling you get with a properly carved long turn where you don't spill a single fleck of snow because you're so tight in the corner, where there's no skis flapping and nothing being kicked up, it just feels like a well oiled machine gliding on it's tracks. And the GS skis did that in a manner that no ski I've ever tried has got close to. However, they were also extremely scary. You could kill yourself on a pair of GS race skis without trying very hard. I had to be 100% focussed all the time, and any loss of focus just allowed the skis to take me for a ride. I'd love to take a pair on a closed piste with decent snow conditions and really find out what they can do. Using them around other people is just paramount to suicide.
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In any case I think, if it's not a troll, people have missed the point. The question wasn't:
Is there any point skiing on anything other than crap skis, it was
Is there any point paying hire shops for anything other than crap skis, do they tend to give you good stuff anyway?
My experience on the latter is actually yes, in my experience they don't care what bracket you've paid for, the ski techs give you whatever they have in stock which suits your height, weight and ability.
Maybe, this is because the bracket of ski that you've hired (IE beginner, intermediate etc) is something which affects the shop making more profit; whereas if you fall off and break yourself because your skis were inappropriate for you, and the insurance company decide to chase this through the hire shop, the ski techs know that they'll invariably get scapegoated by their employer for not providing the best fit piece of kit, so it's easier for the ski techs just to give out the best suited gear on the basis that it means less likelihood of problems occurring.
Working in equipment rental for another industry, that's often what I do. Even if the client has paid for something old and obsolete, I'll often give them something brand spanking new and shiney if it's available - because ultimately when the old and obsolete one breaks on the job it'll be me going out to repair the rancid thing, whilst the brand new shiney one sits on the shelf doing naff all. It's not a ridiculous concept.
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You know it makes sense.
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Bit late to this but...
Until I went on an ASCL course in 2014 I had only ever used the basic hire options.
Following 4 days of having my first ski instruction in 20 odd years through that course, the trainer suggested I would benefit from some better skis. He talked me through the theory and options. Ended up hiring some 2014 Atomic GS for day 5 of the course.
Bought a brand new pair at the end of that day. The difference between those and basic rentals was in my experience just huge. A yawning chasm in performance, but (and it's a large one) without the instruction over the previous 4 days I would not have had a clue how to apply the GS properly and might not have appreciated them.
The best cash I spent that week was the £799 on the course. Without that the skis would have been wasted on me, but they are continuing to demand that I work on my technique to get the best out of them.
My .02c
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Christmas hols out of the way and kid back at school and a couple of weeks before I hit the snow (if any falls)...
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Is there any point paying hire shops for anything other than crap skis, do they tend to give you good stuff anyway?
My experience on the latter is actually yes, in my experience they don't care what bracket you've paid for, the ski techs give you whatever they have in stock which suits your height, weight and ability.
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Thanks for this clarification @dp - you are spot on. I don't believe I have ever been given crap skis or ones that that have hampered my enjoyment.
Although I have skied for a very long time, my knowledge of the actual skis is very limited but comparable to my knowledge of trousers, shoes etc. - as long as they fit and do the job I'm happy. Basically, I recognise most/all of the major brand names and have noticed that for the last 20 years or so they have changed shape from being straight to being fat at both ends and skinny in the middle. I didn't notice any difference to my skiing enjoyment when this shape change happened - just that I got given shorter skis - as with trousers and shoes I thought the length was about the only thing that mattered.
Whilst it has been interesting to read how seriously some of you take your skis, I am never going to be that interested in them - and particularly not interested in skis that (as @paddyDT said:) "...demand that I work on my technique"
I ski purely for pleasure - and I'm pretty damned good at doing that - even if I might not quite measure up to your high standards.
My aim with this post has never been to wind anybody up just find out if there was any benefit (pleasurewise) to me to hire more expensive skis.
Actually. the simple act of asking the question was sufficient to make me think about it for myself and unlike ALL previous years I will take a lot more notice of what skis I am given this year - as well as what else is on the shelf. As somebody suggested, I will also see if I can get a trial of "better" skis at some point to see if there is any difference.
For the benefit of all reading, I will post on this thread the brand and model of cheap (i.e. £24 for 7 days) skis I actually get given later this month as I am now very curious to know if you consider them "planks". Also if I am successful in blagging a free trial, what model I try out and if I prefer them. Until then let's all hope for some snow - far more influential to skiing enjoyment than the skis.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Having read this thread can I make one suggestion that you get some private lessons for your son (you could tag along as well). My son has had a similar experience of skiing, with several years of group lessons. However a few 2 hour private ski lessons made a huge amount of difference to his abilities on the slopes, he came on enormously and I can see him using what he has been taught for every turn.
For me my biggest regret in skiing is that apart from an introduction to skiing on a dry slope in 1978 I didn't have any lessons tell 5 years ago, when I decided to do a 'carving clinic' with a friend at Soldeu, as it was only 30 euros and would be a laugh. What an eye opener, I now try and get at least 4 hours of private lessons a trip, my skiing has improved especially in difficult conditions.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pieman666, This thread is about ski hire. I made the mistake of being sidetracked into lessons which I won't make again.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sorry have a great week
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Kowal.Ski,
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| My aim with this post has never been to wind anybody up just find out if there was any benefit (pleasurewise) to me to hire more expensive skis |
You've had a lot of answers telling you that yes there is a lot of benefit, and above all you should try out different skis to see which ones suit you best. You are right that it's all about having fun, but imo you can have a lot more fun on a decent pair of skis that on cheap crap. I've experienced it first hand and have also experienced the difference it made to a ski chum when we swapped my Völkl P9 GS with his crappo Dynastar something or other ( yes, a long time ago ). he was completely gobsmacked and didn't want to give them back.
Anyway, each to his own. Continue having fun!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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you can have a lot more fun on a decent pair of skis that on cheap crap
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Let's wait a few weeks to find out if cheap = crap when I tell you all what skis I actually get for the few quid that I paid. This is only worth further discussion IF the skis I get are widely considered "crap". If they turn out to be reasonable all-rounders (which is all I want) then I will happily continue saving money in future if not then I will stump up for "better" skis next time around.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Kowal.Ski, when I was a kid my dad always bought me the cheapest shoes in the shop. I could walk in them and so in his eyes that was alright. I have children and I always buy them good quality shoes. I suspect they don't appreciate the difference but I know it's there.
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Just to clarify: I am more than happy to pay more for something better - otherwise I would not have asked the original question. I have absolutely no budgetary constraints whatsoever.
What I try to avoid, however, is paying more for the same or equivalent thing.
I am yet to be convinced that I will get any different skis by paying for premium ones than I normally get and if there does turn out to be a difference will I as a recreational skier notice any difference? I am more than happy for there to be a difference and will happily pay more for the privilege after all it is a small part of the overall cost and I only get to go skiing once a year so I'm all in favour of improving my experience.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Kowal.Ski wrote: |
I love carving turns as fast as I can - I just don't ski straight down the fall line as some people do. |
At 90 kgs, and if you enjoy going fast, and preferring wider turns (rather than "traversing") then you should notice the difference and get more enjoyment from a stiffer ski, which generally equates to more expensive ski to hire. Why don't you hire your normal budget ski the first day of your trip and upgrade the next day and feel the difference for yourself? You will probably be surprised. If you find you are not enjoying the upgraded skis, just go back to what you are comfortable with - but if you feel you want to get more out of your skiing get some private lessons.
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@Steilhang,
-> echo that...I've done the same with Rossi 4G and 3S on differerent feet. (would have been in the same era!)
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