Not to piddle in anyone's porridge, but I do find it a bit odd that you need a specific tool type to pass what is essentially a generic test . . .
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Masque wrote:
Not to piddle in anyone's porridge, but I do find it a bit odd that you need a specific tool type to pass what is essentially a generic test . . .
Don't think anyone's said that. Clearly it's about getting stuff that will work pretty well for the tasks. Rocking up on 203cm Movement Superturbos might not be the best thing for indoor snowplough drills frinstance.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Dave of the Marmottes, not so sure. The Turbos are fat Jams, one of the most versatile skis out there so in reality if you can't operate them well enough to pass L1/2 are you ready to take a teaching qualification . . . or is mor personal development needed?
@kitenski, I ride some very obscure and old stuff. Yes some drills require effort and practice but can be competed on anything. So why should aspiring instructors be advised to use a tool that flatters or even disguises inadequate skills?
Ski choice not so much of an issue at L1, but as you go up the qualification ladder just about everyone ends up on performance piste skis ('cheater' GS skis being common at the higher levels) as you need to get a lot of performance from the ski when on piste, and be good enough to make them work well for you off-piste.
Although courses (generally) don't have any firm rules about ski choice, being on something wildly inappropriate is bound to colour the impression that a candidate makes with the examiner.
BTW, congratulations duncan!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Masque, as I said, try it and let us know....edge control in a narrow indoor slope would be "interesting" on very wide skis and nothing to do with inadequate skills.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@kitenski, I've used fat and GS skis indoor, along with blades and snowboards and haven't had any issues beyond mine own lack of technique/practice. Using what some would call inappropriate equipment can both expose technical problems and provide valuable feedback to the user. I'm not saying that prospective instructors should turn up on anything but that to be a prospective instructor they should be able to perform the skills drills on pretty much anything and not just "cheaters". I've always thought that instructor training is the refinement of an existing skills base and the tools to pass those on to a client.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Masque wrote:
Using what some would call inappropriate equipment can both expose technical problems and provide valuable feedback to the user.
Yeah, typically the feedback being "these floppy planks aren't up to the job of high performance skiing" and are giving up the ghost way before the candidate runs out of skill. Part of an instructor's skill set should be choosing the right ski for the job, not a compromised pair that are a knowingly poor selection.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@rob@rar, There aren't that many "floppy planks" around these days and you recognise that different skis require modified skills, a trait that any instructor is needful of even at an early stage in their career. So, do you think that at entry to instructor training the exclusive use of cheaters is appropriate?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Masque, I've also "used" various skis indoor, but using and passing a technical exam are two different usage criteria and as such I would use appropriate tools for the situation.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@kitenski, so, in a test of technique you feel it should be conducted using equipment designed to flatter or hide less than adequate technique.
A bit like a mathematics exam when you are asked to show your working and then just using g a calculator and writing down the result.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Masque, There is also the expectation that the trainee instructor will be using something similar to their future clients.
You keep threatening to do L1, why not try it on some long fat skis and report back.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Masque wrote:
There aren't that many "floppy planks" around these days
I disagree, especially for the higher performance levels which will be necessary as you work your way up the qualification ladder. There will be many skis which simply aren't suitable for performing at the level required. They will bend too easily, won't be stiff enough torsionally to hold a decent edge, won't be quick enough from edge to edge, will be unstable at speed and will feel like they are about to collapse underneath you when you push them.
Masque wrote:
So, do you think that at entry to instructor training the exclusive use of cheaters is appropriate?
As I said earlier, for L1 I don't think it's an issue, although to be blunt if you turn up on a ski which is very fat and very rockered even if you can ski it with the level of precision required for L1 you're going to look like a bit of an idiot. Indoors, just use the rental skis if you don't have anything suitable.
For L2 and above ski choice becomes more important, for performance reasons and for credibility in the eyes of the examiner.
There is very little virtue in being on the 'wrong' ski when you are being examined. You don't get brownie points for skiing a ski outside of it's natural environment, and your judgement will be questioned, even subconsciously, if you are struggling to meet the technical standard. It's not about cheating, it's about choosing the right tool for the job. This applies just as much to the off-piste assessments, where appropriate off-piste skis, including lighter weight touring gear, is the order of the day; as it does to technical assessment where on-piste performance is critical and you should choose a ski which is designed for that job.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@rob@rar, I agree that as you rise up the ranks and move onto more demanding conditions you are going to need more specific skis. But even then you should be adept with less suitable kit as we all know those conditions can change minute but minute as I recall taking Ronald's GS knife blades out for some sublime morning crust blasting and sinking up to my knees in the afternoon slush at an eosb. What I'm wondering is are we making L1 too easy to access without an understanding of just how much different equipment can have an effect on technique?
Pupils can turn up with all sorts of kit, if the instructor has no idea of what's needed to slide them, how can they teach?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Masque wrote:
Pupils can turn up with all sorts of kit, if the instructor has no idea of what's needed to slide them, how can they teach?
Who says they have no idea? I'm just saying that you should choose the right tools for the job, but ultimately it's still skiing no matter what skis you happen to be on. Sure, you make adjustments to your skiing for different skis, but you also make (much larger) adjustments for terrain, for snow conditions, for fluidity, for enjoyment, for weather, for teaching strategy, for attitude, for degrees of hangover, for traffic, for giggles, etc, etc. Skiers, at all levels, are constantly making adjustments. Nothing special about making adjustments because of ski choice.
If a beginner turns up on kit which is inappropriate I think the instructor should offer advise on what's suitable, rather than jump on to equal inappropriate kit for reason of empathy or to hamstring performance and prove what a superstar they are.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Masque, less talk, more action, get yourself booked up on an L1 using your fat skis, as you have being threatening to do for years......
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@kitenski, buying a house and trying to pay off the mortgage in 3 years has put having fun on the back burner. Depending on my bank balance and my health in October I may just do that. But essentially all you've said is that you can only ski on skis to suit where you ski . . . which is just sad
@Hurtle, Kansas City, once paid for, use the equity and rental income to buy a place or land to build in the Rockies.
And if he wasn't being a mouth breather at the minute it wouldn't be so easy to put them in.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Masque, sounds like a nice plan.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Masque
You don't half write some drivel. The point most people are making is that an instructor should turn up on skis that are appropriate to what they are teaching. This does not mean they can't ski on other skis, just that it is easier to demonstrate when you are appropriate skis for the job that are similar to that of the client.
If I turned up for a piste based lesson on 165 skinny slalom skis wanting to improve on tight carved turns and the instructor rocked up on 30m radius fat powder chargers I'd be pretty disappointed.
L1 seems to involve teaching beginners. Having a ski suitable for demonstrating those drills (and that will be suitable for further levels) seems sensible.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Here's my $0.02 worth.
(And probably Rob@rar has already covered most of this I've just read... ) (If in doubt - follow him)
Anyway...
I've found that on any BASI Tech course, no matter how good you think your skiing is, you'll be asked to try it differently, pushed slightly out of your comfort-zone, and with more versatility.
e.g. I was on an Alpine Performance Course once with a guy who was (in his mind anyway) the world's expert in carving 11m arcs on a pair of 11m slalom skis.
He had spent his skiing days on plastic.
He was given plenty of chances to change - but couldn't. But that was because he hadn't got the experience to know that there was a bit more to it than what he was doing (Basically: park'n'ride won't cut it). It's actually really hard to shape a carved turn on short skis simply because it's all over too quickly and you are in the fall-line before you have time to do anything about edge modulation.
Wrong Kit Clue
If your equipment isn't appropriate, you'll soon get a polite word in your ear from the trainer to go and change your skis.
Whatever the trainer says, it will be to help you get the qual. It isn't like the old days where the trainers believed it was their job to fail people.
If you aren't going to pass, it'll be because you aren't ready, and it probably won't come as a surprise by the end of the exams. Usually, you'll get mid course feedback, you'll do self-assessment too and you'll know if you are effectively on a training course by then or if you have a good chance at a pass in the assessment "scores-on-the-doors" (... as I think they still refer to it in some parts!).
Having said that:-
I've found that it isn't "done" to use a quivver of skis. Or even make a daily change. There's an expectation that you should use the same skis throughout.
e.g.
12 years ago, everyone was on short (165cm, 11m s/c) FIS slalom skis in all conditions. You had to be 'on' them all the time especially in the deep.
- Then in 2006-7-8 or so I remember Sean Langmuir who was Technical Director brought in the recommendation of a minimum s/c radius of 17m.
It didn't get officially taken up as a BASI assessment requirement, but Today (2015), in practice, most people I know opt for a "cheater" GS - e.g. Like Rossi Oversize GS or similar, and the s/c radius will be high 'teens of metres, and the length will be a minimum of 175cm. Longer for a stronger skier. Skier height isn't much to do with it. The longer the ski - the longer the s/c radius needs to be or the tip width and tail width become far to large.
I certainly wouldn't go for gimmicky skis that are supposed to be easy to ski or whatever the blurb on the label says. You, as a good skier need to be in charge of the skis - not the other way around. Avoid variable geometry skis that have replaceable stiffness inserts! (They are impractical to adjust. No time).
Longer skis are better (more stability) in the variables and long turns and on the ice; and for the shorties - a good skier can get them over and carve a less-than 10m radius arc on demand - even on a >=23m s/c GS ski.
On "Short turns", if you are on longer skis, you will probably not be asked to do grooved short turns all the way round.
The short-radius turn is a compound turn and the trainer will explain what is to be delivered in all its phases.
Maybe a slight schmear at the top will be permitted, but grip above the fall-line will be a requirement, with no slip to completion. (L4 that would be).
People on short skis will probably be expected to show better grip throughout - with no slip at all.
On Ski Choice:-
Hint:- Don't do what the "Team" guys do
I was on a course in Zermatt a few years ago and saw an ex British team racer having fun doing his BASI L2 demos with a Downhill race ski on one foot and a FIS Slalom ski on the other. He passed easily. Different planet.
I was on a BASI L4 Tech in 2010 and another Ex-GB team skier used a giant pair of rigid fat straight-ish 195cm twintips all week, and simply out-skied everyone (including the trainer) in all departments.
What to do?
If you want my advice (optional): Give yourself every advantage your skis can give you. Slalom skis are not versatile enough. Too "turny" - so you don't get sufficient edge-control time at the top of the turn. In skillful turning, most of the direction-change work is done above the fall-line. So you need to progressively apply the edge. And then take it off again after the fall-line.
Get proper, plain old non-gimmicky, oversized GS skis of a decent length and >=17m sidecut radius.
Ski Construction
Get sandwich construction skis (not cap construction) with sidewall removed sufficiently so you can get the side-edge file-guide in. (Sidewall-removal tools can kill a pair of cap skis).
Sharp Skis - the expert's secret.
Race-prep your skis with 0.5 Degree on the base-edge and 2.0 Degrees on the side-edge. Buy proper file-guides. Don't use a compound tool.
Use the best steel file you can afford to do the edge setting, and then get a couple or three diamond files to keep them tip-top after skiing.
My conclusion:-
For BASI assessments:- Use a non-FIS high performance piste ski for precision and grip. Not too fat underfoot (You need fast edge-edge in bumps). Compensate for the lack of float in the offpiste steep'n'deep by skiing a longer ski.
Stiffness:-
For example a pair of Rossi 8GS Oversize I found were far too soft. I needed the Rossi 9GS Oversize, and I chose a 184cm.
(This year's Rossi skis are simply LT ("long turn" and ST "short turn")!
To my simple mind: a longer ski will bend more easily than a short ski assuming the stiffness is the same.
Obviously - this has been written from my own experience. (Long experience of not passing L4 !!! ....) When you go for your next exam - it might all be different.
Good luck on your BASI pathway
David Cuthill (diligently following the SM guidelines...)
BASI L3
(E&OE) !
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@SkiPresto, Good post. Oh for the skills to do L4 on twin tips
Here's the latest from the "Glissers":-
"The Hero Elite range is the one which replaced the 9S or 9GS from before.
Now, you have to choose between Hero Elite ST or LT according to the radius you prefer.
However, the Hero Elite LT is more an equivalent of an 8GS as there is no titanal reinforcement inside."
So - I'm trying to get some more 9GS!
So-called "Long-Turn"/ Short Turn"
For me the turn radius is a band, a range of carve-turn radii. The Output turn radius is a variable range starts at the s/c radius marked and goes down to around 5m.
So a 9GS Oversize is typically from 18m (Depending upon length) and tighter.
The Short Turn skis (ST) can only carve short-radius turns.
As for "titanal" I've never been too comfortable saying that. The French probably know more about that pronounciation
Here's more info just in:-
"The equivalent of a 9GS is a Hero Elite Ti. Ti going for the Titanal reinforcement inside.
- - - But - They're out of stock till next winter!"
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@SkiPresto, I've a pair of 8GS which I use as my 'sensible' training ski and they have been excellent. I suspect the ones I have are slightly wider underfoot than some as Rossi seemed to change them year to year. I wouldn't mind another pair of 8's or 9's if you happen to come across a few pairs in a warehouse some where....
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Wow. The "Masters" look pretty racy. the ones I saw were 116/70/98 whereas the 9GS Radical Oversize are 118/72/100
"Beer League Racing"? Bring it on! http://youtube.com/v/DLINc7io4j8 (Masters) I like the narrow tails. Better in bumps - I'm sure.
Here's a youtube of the 2014 9GS Oversize http://youtube.com/v/rx1XOvQNbME (They're the titanium insert ones) (If you an still get them)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
This thread is of interest to me as I to am planning on doing my BASI L1 at some point this year. This is not a career change for me but I enjoy teaching and coaching and predominantly want to teach kids at my local dry slope. My Fischer Motive 88s are a great All Mountain ski but are unlikely to fit the bill for the course.
The comments about length v height and weight are interesting. I'm jut over 6' and 15st 5lb so roughly 183cm and 98kg. The Motives are 177cm so I was thinking something around the same length in a piste ski. The Head Magnums sound ideal but they are a bit pricey and seem to be in short supply at this time of the year.
In terms of teaching I notice all the instructors at Hillend seem to use the hire skis. I can see whay this would be so as I can't imagine coughing up in excess of £400 for a pair of skis and wrecking them on the Dendix.
I'm not sure yet where I'll be doing my course but it is likely to be either Hillend (dry slope) or Snow Factor (indoor). Should that be a factor in my choice of ski for the course?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I picked up a pair of ex demo dynastar piste skis for working on plastic. CR72s ? The write up pretty much says intermediate but they seem pretty stiff, but I've not had them on snow. For L1 on plastic I'd say go for a cheap pair of piste skis and learn how to service them.
Using 'rack' skis for teaching makes sense, at least you know what the client is dealing with. Don't mention hire boots
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Gaza wrote:
...
In terms of teaching I notice all the instructors at Hillend seem to use the hire skis. I can see whay this would be so as I can't imagine coughing up in excess of £400 for a pair of skis and wrecking them on the Dendix.
Yep, occasionally take my own skis if it's properly wet and have a high end or race class. Otherwise the stiffer hire skis do fine, and should be ok for L1 i think.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hi @BalernoStu!!
The last time I skied at Hillend must have been 2006. I used my good slalom skis. Unfortunately, the mat was so sticky and dirty, it melted the wax out of my bases and then melted the base.
They only allow their own (mostly level 1 it looks like) instructors teach there. So even if you bring 10 clients, you are not allowed to teach them even if you have an alpine L3.
The "jump" is completely dangerous as it has no length. If you hit the kicker - if you have any length on your jump you land on a completely flat piece of mat. Well, I say mat, but it is usually strewn with scree rock.
I got ski lessons there in 1965 with Hans Kuwall and John Hynes. It was very smart then. The racers take squeezie bottles full of "Fairy Liquid" to act as lubricant on the ski bases.
In fact here is the very man in 1967 (they reliably inform us)
I think @SkiPresto is getting to the heart of my ? Rob and some others have as usual, pushed well past the bounds of my original ?
I'm asking why aspirant instructors are being told, and in some cases sold, very specific skis to make it easier to pass a generic skills evaluation . . . as in the OP query. Surely if you want to aim at qualifications you should already have at the least a rudimentary knowledge and experience of the different properties of ski types and their suitability and use in differing terrain/conditions.
Obviously a teacher going out will choose a tool that will best save his/her fatigue and best demonstrate his/her skills to their client . . . that's not what I'm posting about. I'm asking if BASI are loading the bases, and essentially filling their coffers, with L1 instructors that have little if any experience of contra-conditions for their equipment and even less of how to adapt to using and teaching on equipment that isn't for just a groomed, sunshine or sugar crumble cheat ski.
Or are L1s just aspirant cash cows being flattered with a narrow challenge? What's the ratio of L1s progressing to L2?
OH, and @kitenski, can take out my 'Teleboard' anytime he wishes to demonstrate 'my' inadequacies.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Masque wrote:
I think @SkiPresto is getting to the heart of my ? Rob and some others have as usual, pushed well past the bounds of my original ?
If I've gone past your original question it is because, as usual, your blowhard bluster obfuscated it. (see what I did there )
Masque wrote:
I'm asking why aspirant instructors are being told, and in some cases sold, very specific skis to make it easier to pass a generic skills evaluation . . . as in the OP query.
The replies, mainly from people who have done these courses so are actually drawing from personal experience rather than blowhard bluster, all recommended general piste skis suitable to the generic skills that form the core of BASI exams. Maybe there's a reason that everyone provided the same answer...
Masque wrote:
Surely if you want to aim at qualifications you should already have at the least a rudimentary knowledge and experience of the different properties of ski types and their suitability and use in differing terrain/conditions.
Agreed. And the OP stated up front that his current quiver was not suitable, most probably because he has at the least a rudimentary knowledge and experience of the different properties of ski types and their suitability and use in differing terrain/conditions. He was simply asking for recommendations for different skis which he knew would be suitable for L1 and L2. Perhaps you missed his point?
Masque wrote:
I'm asking if BASI are loading the bases, and essentially filling their coffers, with L1 instructors that have little if any experience of contra-conditions for their equipment and even less of how to adapt to using and teaching on equipment that isn't for just a groomed, sunshine or sugar crumble cheat ski.
You might be asking that now, but that's not the question you posed earlier in this thread.
Masque wrote:
Or are L1s just aspirant cash cows being flattered with a narrow challenge?
Just out of interest, do you know what and where the L1 qualifies you to teach?
Masque wrote:
What's the ratio of L1s progressing to L2?
I'm not sure, but I think there are more L2 members in BASI currently than there are L1. For lots of people L1 is all they want and need. People who are passionate about skiing, and perhaps want to help share that passion by working a few hours a month at their local artificial slope helping introduce beginners and kids to the joys of snowsports.
In terms of teaching I notice all the instructors at Hillend seem to use the hire skis. I can see why this would be so as I can't imagine coughing up in excess of £400 for a pair of skis and wrecking them on the Dendix.
Yep, occasionally take my own skis if it's properly wet and have a high end or race class. Otherwise the stiffer hire skis do fine, and should be ok for L1 i think.
Cheers Stu. Oscar tried out his new race skis last week ahead of this weekends Twin Peaks races and I made sure they had a good application of DataWax Polar GX but he still managed to get a couple of minor scrapes on them.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Gaza, shame about the scrapes on new skis! Ask him to avoid any metalwork around the edge of the slope and the dendix itself shouldn't be too bad on them. Kids don't seem to suffer overheating bases as adults do, likely due to their lighter weight. I've been up Thu evenings recently and the slope has been running reasonably well even when dry. Someone mentioned lubricant had been applied, but I don't know the details such as how long it remains effective.
If you're doing L1 at Braehead then, while the course would be possible on the slope's rental skis, I suggest you'll have more fun on something better. Ellis Brigham in the shopping centre may have suitable skis to demo/hire for the duration of the course. Edit: have you tried your Fischers on the indoor slope? They may be ok, and I haven't experienced damage using my own skis indoors.
Good luck for Oscar in the Twin Peaks!
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Robrar
Quote:
blowhard bluster
- some fully acquired alliteration skills there!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@balernostu is another man to listen to. He knows everything an aspirant BASI Alpine Ski instructor needs to know about skis for the exam.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@masque is letting a bit of traditional cynicism creep in!
One thing I've noticed is that you don't hear much cynicism from people who pass BASI exams.
(Even I who am probably past it now in terms of passing L4 Tech, am not cynical about BASI standards and assessments.)
I would add that aspirant BASI Level (x) instructors would be advised to be super-positive and supportive during an assessment.
Let me reassure readers that BASI is a great system, the trainers are all extremely well qualified, and it's all a lot of fun.
The course fees are not expensive. Not much more than standard ski lessons. Even if you don't pass you'll have transformed your skiing, and been in some fantastic company, and have made strong friendships.
If you are learning on the job - expect to take 7 to 10 years to pass the "Full Cert". If you work out the price and think it might be cheaper to become an airline pilot - then do that!
@masque asks:
Quote:
Or are L1s just aspirant cash cows being flattered with a narrow challenge?
I say "No" - this is very cynical. There's no big money deal. The trainers often take a pay-cut to do the work, and don't get paid for a lot of their BASI re-validation, conferences etc..
1) Every aspirant instructor (even the experts coming in) in the BASI system needs to do every part of it / or (in the case of Ex-Team superstars) be familiar with every part of it.
2) I agree that aspirant ski teachers should all be experienced excellent skiers before embarking on the BASI adventure.
3) But bearing this in mind - I would say that the earlier someone can get the training - probably the better. (No time to acquire bad habits).
4) No one should be afraid to ask any question, and they should expect valuable answers.
Good luck to all in BASI system.
DC
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
There aren't that many "floppy planks" around these days and you recognise that different skis require modified skills, a trait that any instructor is needful of even at an early stage in their career. So, do you think that at entry to instructor training the exclusive use of cheaters is appropriate?
I've just read... ) (If in doubt - follow him)
