 Poster: A snowHead
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Skiing is a very pleasant activity. Most of the people from around the World i've met are pleasant people. In fact I can't remember meeting any really first rate complete back bottoms when skiing.
A few noisy people being a bit inconsiderate, a few people who push in at lift queues but on the whole that's it.
Yet, as an activity at the organisational level, certainly in the UK, it seems completely driven by internecine warfare and strife.
BASI (whoever they are) are at odds with one of it's members which seems to have thrown it into turmoil and conflict with some of its members.
The Ski Club of GB, which apparently may of may not be club (that I would have no wish to join) seems to have an on-going feud with one of the people on here, or maybe many of it's people.
None of the other hobbies I take part in have anywhere near this level of angst, sniping and intrigue.
Maybe it's the lack of oxygen at high altitude levels.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Where's TTT?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Pedantica, BASI a Scottish company based in Grantown on Spey, Scotland.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Dunk, oh. Thanks.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I guess TTT is returning from the court now...............
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Simon Butler has had his Basi licence reinstated by high court in Scotland. "The interim suspension of BASI’s decision to expel Simon and interdict preventing them from doing it again have been granted in the Court of Session, Edinburgh".
Ian Mitchell QC described the BASI process to expel Mr Butler as a “ grotesque Kangaroo court “ , and the order suspending the expulsion takes immediate effect.
Niall Mickel WS, Solicitor Advocate Mr Butlers’ Lawyer, said that Mr Butler was absolutely delighted with the decision, and very much looked forward to pursuing his rights through the proper channels in the correct manner!!
Can open worms everywhere
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@emwmarine,
Obviously you never played rugby or cricket.
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Excellent news. Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of SB's actions, the way in which the expulsion was handled was frankly unacceptable. Now they can go ahead and follow due process to suspend him the right way, if they still feel that it needs doing 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Szymon, You may need to read the last 15 words in the first sentence again!
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@Fattes13, it's an interim suspension of a decision to expel, and they are prevented from expelling him. They could still suspend him (bet they do!  )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Szymon, The granting of an Interdict would indicate they are prevented from suspending him going forward, I am guessing this is until he has expired all legal avenues in his appeal? But I am speculating on the last bit
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| speed098 wrote: |
I am not surprised that BASI did something but I hope the reports of how SB was told etc are totally wrong.
No matter what the constitution of club/organisation are any member has a right to attend any disciplinary hearing and must be provided in advance of all accusations any supporting statements, documentation. No accuser can be on the panel overseeing the hearing. Failure to do this leaves the organisation open to legal proceedings for unfair dismissal/suspension.
I personally think BASI would have done better to await any appeals since SB had moved to Switzerland for this season. If he had been intending to work in France this season still then yes they had to make a decision ( with him present to put forward a defence ).
To revoke his license or suspend it because they say he has employed under qualified instructors could be awkward if the ECJ decide France had no right to restrict L2 and especially L3 instructors no matter what BASI agreed with ESF behind closed doors. |
The judge's comment re "grotesque Kangaroo court " shows that any organisation has to follow due process I did try my best to point this out to you TTT and that BASI really did need to reconsider it's actions.
Now BASI has been found guilty in a court so what is the official BASI stance on the membership of those involved and will they follow due process and allow them to attend any disciplinary proceedings?
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| @Szymon, The granting of an Interdict would indicate they are prevented from suspending him going forward, I am guessing this is until he has expired all legal avenues in his appeal? But I am speculating on the last bit |
BASI could still go ahead and suspend/expel him but would face criminal charges for breaching the court order. They must wait till either they appeal this decision and if win can then under due process expel him ( the court hearing would constitute due process ) or more likely wait till the outcome of any French proceedings which will now have to include ( if SB has any sense ) have the French any legal right to exclude any other organisation other than the ESF having training schools. I believe the ESF can not lawfully win that point thus SB hiring consenting adults at L2 and L3 though naughty may well not be deemed as illegal any longer.
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You know it makes sense.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
A post from FB
Breaking news. Simon Butler has had his Basi licence reinstated by high court in Scotland. "The interim suspension of BASI’s decision to expel Simon and interdict preventing them from doing it again have been granted in the Court of Session, Edinburgh".
Ian Mitchell QC described the BASI process to expel Mr Butler as a “ grotesque Kangaroo court “ , and the order suspending the expulsion takes immediate effect.
Niall Mickel WS, Solicitor Advocate Mr Butlers’ Lawyer, said that Mr Butler was absolutely delighted with the decision, and very much looked forward to pursuing his rights through the proper channels in the correct manner, apparently unlike his national association.
I look forward to hearing TTT, sorry BASI's comments on this. |
Brilliant so looking forward to TTT's response on the quality of BASI's legal advice and the authority of court decisions. Looking like a few more board members might consider resigning in shame.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@speed098, Nail on head! I suspect if Common sense prevails, BASI will stand down, allow the legal process to work through the courts and then decide on any action!
If SB wins the reason for his suspension is invalid and that opens more questions, I believe the training element is part of the case SB is taking but am not 100% certain on that
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Poster: A snowHead
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You may wish to refer to my earlier and rather apposite post on advocacy on the Italian guide thread.
I suspect you will find the kangaroo court comment was by the lawyer who was paid to represent SB.
Secondly you will find the decision was suspended.
Thirdly I think you will find you have to read more carefully what I have actually said on this matter because very clearly people haven't
Fourthly no one else apart from one person who was party to the actual conversation I had in respect of this matter knows what I have actually said in respect of this matter. It was a private conversation so I can not reveal that conversation. Even that person doesn't know the full extent of my views so no one on here actually knows what I personally think.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So this thread is just an opportunity for you to troll and state things you don't actually think?
I take it the fsceache reporting is erroneous if you're saying that the order doesn't have immediate effect.
If so SB would do better employing better spin doctors.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@TTT, yeah, I've done all that. You've still got egg all over your face.
The BASI (k)nobs now need to think very hard about whether they want to exhaust their members' funds seeking to reverse the decision, in order to expel someone who is complying with French court judgements while appealing them; all in order to provide job opportunities to BASI members while satisfying customers and hence furthering his business interests.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| TTT wrote: |
| It is staggering that some people can still question the basi decision. The french court is not a kangaroo court.... . |
Well, the French court may not be a kangaroo court, but the Scottish Court has determined that basi's decision most definitely was! 
Or perhaps you think it staggering that a Scottish Judge could question basi's decision?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@laundryman
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| in order to expel someone who is complying with French court judgements while appealing them; |
SB in fact was already convicted, pending appeal, from a judgement at Chambery in 2013. He then went on to commit a similar offence and is subsequently arrested and convicted (and appeals once again).
So he can hardly be considered to be "complying with French court judgements".
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@marksavoie, SBS has only used Carte Pro holders in France since February 2014 and has indicated they will continue with that policy in the coming season. The BASI board has no excuse to not know that.
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@TTT,
If the statement re "grotesque Kangaroo court" was said by SB's own solicitor in court if the judge thought the comment had no merit he would have said so, he would not have just left the comment unchallenged. Most definitely BASI lawyers would not have left it unchallenged.
But no matter what was said by who the fact is BASI have done themselves no favours at all with the mediocre amateur handling of this by Simon Burke and co.
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| speed098 wrote: |
| Most definitely BASI lawyers would not have left it unchallenged. |
BASI was not represented at the Court proceedings today.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, someone said this morning don't I get bored of repeating the same responses to the same questions and the answer is yes.
I'm really not sure how many times I have to say since I started posting on these matters that there are 2 sides to this story and I'm presenting the case for one side of the story before people can finally grasp this point, Is it really that difficult? I've always been entirely open on this point. It's called debate. We do it every single day at work to test our arguments. People do it every single day for their work, particularly when they are representing clients just like SB's barrister has
Read the Italian guiding debate and you will see how someone was drawn into making a fallacious argument. It's a standard negotiation tactic and painfully obvious.
Not that means that the points that I make are not necessarily valid. I'm just presenting one side of the debate just as the daily fail does everyday. The difference being both sides of the debate are being presented here.
Are people really unaware that this is an Internet message board? Just how many times do I have to repeat that the courts and relevant authorities will ultimately decide and not this message board?
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Apparently not. BASI would do well to leave things as they are until the court appeals etc, are exhausted. This could become even messier and costly if they keep going.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@marksavoie,
But the real question is are the ESF and French court acting lawfully when they exclude any other person/body/nation from forming training schools ? I do not see how they are.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@laundryman, you clearly have not read what I've written on this particular point and absolutely no awareness of what I have said privately on this matter. You would be surprised. People really should read more carefully.
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You know it makes sense.
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| speed098 wrote: |
But no matter what was said by who the fact is BASI have done themselves no favours at all with the mediocre amateur handling of this by Simon Burke and co. |
=> Stephen Burke
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| speed098 wrote: |
| Most definitely BASI lawyers would not have left it unchallenged. |
BASI was not represented at the Court proceedings today. |
But unlike them not informing SB of their meeting the court would have informed BASI of the hearing in the court. If they decided not to turn up I think the members need to question what is going on at BASI for them to ignore such a serious matter that goes to the core of BASI disciplinary procedures.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's nearly carefully crafted not prose. It's a smart phone to pass time while travelling. It is not work but I do present a view which I think is better than no view even if it may not always be my own personal view always.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| speed098 wrote: |
| But unlike them not informing SB of their meeting the court would have informed BASI of the hearing in the court. If they decided not to turn up I think the members need to question what is going on at BASI for them to ignore such a serious matter that goes to the core of BASI disciplinary procedures. |
According to PlanetSki the first that BASI knew about this was when the papers were served at their office after the Court had sat. No idea if this was ineffective communication on BASI's part, or the Court was not required to inform them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@rob@rar, curiouser and curiouser...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Fattes13, @speed098, my point was that they're banned from expelling him, but they could possibly suspend him -- which is what they probably should have done in the first place.
I explicitly mean suspend in the sense of their own disciplinary procedures 10c:
c. Investigation: A proper investigation of the matter complained of will be undertaken by the Disciplinary Panel and, if appropriate, the Disciplinary Panel may by written notice suspend the person complained of for a specified period during which time such an investigation will be undertaken. The decision to suspend such a person will be notified to him by the Disciplinary Panel and confirmed in writing.
(taken from http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/BASI_Disciplinary_Procedure_Ver_1-2_200710.pdf)
-simon
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@TTT, I believe the court were not amused at the way the licence was revoked and due processes were not followed. My main issue with the whole proceedings.
@speed098, I doubt whether the court needed to inform them as it is a suspension, BASI have 21 days to reply.
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@Dunk,
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I doubt whether the court needed to inform them as it is a suspension
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Ah, fair enough.
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@Szymon, mmmmmmmmmm, If they had any sense they would probably sit back and not wast anymore members money on long drawn out legal procedures! But that is just IMHO! The fact that they skipped the suspension part in the first place and appear not to have followed proper procedure, calls into question any action they take from here on in!
Like I said can open Worms everywhere
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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OK planetski have a bit more clarity on the Court of Session decision - it seems it is like an injunction and BASI have 21 days to appeal. Presumably they've already got their mighty legal ducks completely in a row so a successful appeal against the suspicion will be a no brainer?
Anyway in other news the SCGB and ESF have decided to end their beautiful friendship..... Hard to know who to side with on that one like Chelsea v Man U innit?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
OK planetski have a bit more clarity on the Court of Session decision - it seems it is like an injunction and BASI have 21 days to appeal. Presumably they've already got their mighty legal ducks completely in a row so a successful appeal against the suspicion will be a no brainer?
Anyway in other news the SCGB and ESF have decided to end their beautiful friendship..... Hard to know who to side with on that one like Chelsea v Man U innit? |
I am not a lawyer but one thing springs to mind here other than being expelled. A person will lose their means to carry out their profession - that's quite a big legal point on it's own, if a licence is revoked. I would want my legal advisor to argue that point quite strongly.
BASI would do well to get some advice from someone other than the legal director.
'BASI is now seeking clarification of the ruling and has expressed disappointment that Mr Butler chose to go to court rather than follow an internal appeal process.'
I think the reason it landed in court was because Mr Butler was expressing his own disappointment at the lack of internal process. Mr Burke has a lot to answer for.
I wonder if he voted? Legal Director and interim CEO. I would trust that he did not as it was also him who proposed the expulsion.
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FAQ
too many SB's in this thread 