 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello.
I have now been informed by my lawyers that BASI have submitted a note of defence to the court in Edinburgh. This has been done at the very last moment allowed by the court in terms of their timetable, and we didn’t receive notification of it until much later on Friday night so my apologies to all who have posted on the basis that BASI aren’t defending the action. It is now official that they are. However the interesting thing for me, is that the defences don’t ask to recall the interim orders and so BASI are still prevented by the Court from suspending my membership until a full hearing is held to consider all of this.
It’s disappointing for me that despite numerous behind the scenes efforts to have a discussion with BASI on the subject, and approaches made by a number of other members to have things sorted out, there has been absolutely no willingness shown by the Board to enter into constructive discussions. Unfortunately this means that a huge amount of time and money will now need to be spent by everyone to have the thing thrashed out in a very public setting. I still remain hopeful that a constructive dialogue can be entered into, and my phone will always remain on ! Thank you to everyone for all the support so far."
Simon
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@laundryman, thanks for the update and respect for being big enough to apologise. I don't think any of us knows enough to predict what will happen on the Scottish Court case. It's the ECJ case that really matters if and when it happens so I don't think any of us should be crowing whatever happens.
As it says in the basi manual people ski for different reasons. I don't consider the lower levels with disdain at all and ever never said that. Some people seem so desperate to make all sorts of things up to discredit me just because I happen to have different experiences and therefore different views to their own. Most of the people I speak to share the same views as me. Sadly social media tends to be taken over by a small minority. Saying someone is on crack just because they have a different view to you is going over the top. I'm just realistic as I find most of the lower levels are who also have huge respect for ex racers who can apply all that they have learnt skiing at a very high level to lower level skiers.
I do get the SB arguments and sympathise and agree with some of them. I just have different experiences and different views and it is not a product for me particularly as I find many of the views expressed by the SB side as offensive.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@TTT,
So pointing out things we see as errors and faults ie how BASI conducted the hearing and most def how SB himself was informed is offensive to you but it is not offensive if you dish out the insults and innuendo's.
Examples below from your own posts on this thread, but thanks to irie, for providing the one stop shop for the list on page 24.
Clueless, Pathologically self destructive, Self deluded, Acolytes, Hysterical, Xenophobic, Teenage troll, Dogmatic, Populist, Reactionary, Desperate, Messiah, Jingoism, Naive, Lovies, Cult leader, Cultists, Insulting, Disrespectful, Rude, Offensive ,
Pointing out how protectionist and against the ethos of EU open borders and free movement of workforce the fact that training schools can only be opened by those with the French Diploma and not by BASI L4 ISTD or Dutch, Belgium or even Italian equivalents.
You have the delusional view that courts never get things wrong. Unfortunately it is a fact of life way too many times that they do so just because one French court has found SB guilty does not truly mean he is untill all avenues of appeal are concluded. It may be that the French are the ones guilty and as you know my own personal opinion is they are re the EU derogation on the points that equivalents should be able to open training schools in exactly the same way the French ESF can.
Should BASI L2 be able to work more freely with less restrictions yes should BASI L1 no they are on the first rung of the ladder to becoming hopefully great instructors. I understand those wanting to protect a living wage and personally I would hate to see people be they ESF BASI or any other body not be able to earn a living wage but unfortunately EU directives have opened up the workforce within the EU and competition is stiff yes there will always be a demand for cheap lessons no matter what the quality but in general the best will get the work those who can best teach not necessarily those who can ski the fastest or with the most finesse but without the ability to communicate.
Personally I would like to see SB win on every point but I would still prefer those involved to sit down and talk things through and reach a fair compromise within the spirit of EU law not French law. I am not an SB supporter and most def not an SB acolyte or cultists ( I actually do not know if I have ever met him but if so it would have been the best part of 20 years ago when I was involved a lot more in skiing in the UK ) just someone who believes in fair and equal treatment of everyone no matter how big or small.
@TTT,
I would much prefer to have healthy debates with you but you do need to refrain from the innuendo's and name calling yourself, you have made some good posts on this thread please do not continue to ruin that work by belittling yourself. Some have already hinted that you may be a Troll I have not and hope you will show everyone here that you are truly represnting a different view in a mature way.
I hope you are able to enjoy your time skiing and the conditions improve. Non of what I have said is done to be offensive or insulting to you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@TTT, ASKING if someone is on crack is an established internet meme when someone appears to be presenting an inconsistent or flip flopping position. In the space of this single thread you've been just a punter skier, admitted to being a BASI member, expressed confidence in the BASI legal position, expressed lots if opinion presented as fact, made predictions,claimed not to make predictions, accused everyone who hasn't bowed to you of being a kipper, claimed you're too busy skiing, that you don't even like skiing, that you hang out with high level BASIs, that you prefer to take lessons from local ex racers and that you're not interested in instruction.
I believe use of the meme is justified.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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own up. who bought shares in Butterkist?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Not me, honest!
Oh.
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Point 1.24 of the Code of Ethics for the British Association of Ski Instructors says:
| Quote: |
| 1.24 BASI members must consistently display high personal standards and project a favourable image of the sport - to clients, colleagues, fellow members, resort representatives, the media and the general public. |
Ah well, that's TTT stuffed. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@stewart woodward
1. Please correct me if I am wrong but I am not aware that SkiPresto has anywhere stated in this thread that he/she is a BASI member. Maybe somewhere else?
2. In any case, in this thread TTT has stated explicitly that he/she IS a BASI member but has repeatedly refused to be identified.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@irie, not sure about this thread, but @SkiPresto is a BASI member and has referred to that on other occasions.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @irie, not sure about this thread, but @SkiPresto is a BASI member and has referred to that on other occasions. |
He most certainly has and he just loves creating on-line communities as well as being BASI L3 and ISIA qualified.
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You know it makes sense.
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@speed098, sorry but you are making things up. I said I understood how the process happened but that it was not pretty. BASI have apologised for the way things happened and rightly are working on improving the disciplinary procedures. If you choose to falsely take things as insults and innuendo that is up to you. I've said the training schools should be opened up. This is not covered by the EU rules and my employer does exactly the same thing in the UK so it is not a French thing. I don't buy that you know more about the law then the French courts who have found him guilty on numerous occasions. I understand you may disagree with the law and the EU rules but that is not the same thing. SB is legally guilty until if and when overturned on appeal. I only get the opportunity to train a few weeks a year so I want to train with the best who take some searching out but IME offer better value then the biggest named operators mainly because you are also paying for their higher overheads so SB case has no personal impact on me. OF course the French system is not a free market but I'm disillusioned with the failings of free markets. I would admit I use emotive language but it is generally meant tounge in cheek as I think some of the stuff is bizarre and deserves mocking. I clearly don't like the xenophobic aspects anbd those who want to take away the rights of millions. I don't have a personal issue with you at all.
@Dave of the Marmottes, I appreciate it is commonly used but that makes it even less clever. I don't see any inconsistency between being a punter and a basi member. Punter to me means a paying customer. Unfortunately no one is likely to pay to ski with me although gifts are gratefully accepted so no contradiction. I said I think that the French are complying with EU rules and that BASI appear to comply with the AofA. I've made no comment predicting the Scottish legal case as I really don't know. No contradiction. Expressing an opinion as fact is standard advocacy as anyone familiar with representing clients would understand. No idea what a kipper is. You can be busy skiing and not like it so there is no contradiction. I take instruction from BASI and locals so again no contradiction. I said I'm not interested in instructing not that I'm not interested in instruction so again no contradiction. Perhaps it should be me using the meme as you have failed to grasp every point.
@irie, and where do you think that leaves SB then - a convicted criminal who has fallen in with UKIP and Daily Mail who has been abusive about the French and BASI and wants to take the rights away of millions?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@TTT, you were doing quite well until the last paragraph, when you repeated for the umpteenth time the same extreme interpretation.
Yes, SB has been convicted, but the punishment has not been exacted pending the decision of a higher court, so it's an open case.
Yes, he has lobbied the political parties that represent his constituency in Europe: UKIP and the Conservatives. That doesn't amount to endorsing the policies of either party.
Yes, he's been quoted in the Daily Mail; along with the Daily Telegraph and the BBC and doubtless other news organs.
Sure, he has reason to criticise the French authorities (not "the French"), for example for not responding within statutory limits to his Carte Pro application but arresting and charging him instead; and to BASI for arbitrarily removing his MoU.
It's absurd to suggest he wants "to remove the rights of millions" (yes, I know you will attempt to justify your statement with tenuous logic). What he wants is to be left in peace to run his business with willing BASI-qualified instructors and willing customers; in compliance with EU law as he sees it, which he will test at the highest level if necessary.
I think he thought he had that when he won his case in France in 2006, was granted his MoU by BASI and was unmolested on the slopes for several years. Times have clearly changed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@TTT,
Firstly I did not say you had personal issues with me hence the last part of my post re you enjoying your skiing, just that you are using colourful words and yes maybe they have come across in a way you did not intend but if they are tongue in cheek a few smileys inserted every now and then helps show it is more tongue in cheek.
SB is not trying to take away the rights of millions we are talking hundreds at min a few thousand at most so again sensationalism. It can be argued strongly he is fighting for the rights of lower level ie L2 BASI members to work more freely in France and also for BASI L4 to be able to form training schools something BASI themselves are not doing to the best of their ability.
I understand what you say re SB being found guilty by a French court but it is not quite as black and white as you see it either, While the case is under appeal though found guilty he has not paid the fine or gone to prison because under appeal the guilty verdict may be overturned. If SB did not pay the fine was sent to prison while appealing, he then is then found not guilty by a higher court, then where does that leave the French legal system having to make compensation to someone for illegal imprisonment ? You only want to say SB is guilty but the fact is the decision is not final until all appeals are concluded. You have to have grounds for an appeal to be lodged,though I accept sometimes the grounds are very bizarre if not pathetic in some cases I have read about in this country.
If training schools are not covered by EU rules then BASI are at fault for not fighting that point early enough and strongly enough. This should have been part and parcel of the equivalence.
At no point have I said I know more about the law than the French court but it is valid to question if the court made the correct decision and if they had all the facts. Courts every day make wrong decision's does that make them bad or incompetent no! but failing to correct the mistakes does.
I have even gone on the record here saying I do not blame the ESF for IMO pushing the EU rules beyond the limit they do so to get the very best deal for their instructors not some half baked offering that seems to be what BASI are happy to accept then have to go begging for a bit more. I do blame them though for taking it to a level that results in someone spending time in a cell.
No it is not ideal that SB has received help/backing from UKIP I do not think they ultimately have his best interests at heart but when you are fighting an uphill battle you take help from whoever will offer it and if your gov body will not stand up for you then they have to accept part blame for where SB has had to turn.
The main problem I see with the SB case if he wins is that it would be harder for some to earn a living wage. Unfortunately such is the facts of life many others have to struggle against extra competition from an ever shrinking world and open market.It will still allow good quality instructors be them ESF BASI L4 or even L2 to earn a wage those who provide the best service for their clients will always be in demand.
Last point if BASI have apologised the better more responsible way to have apologised would have been to rescind the Dismissal of SB and then to have talked to him.
I would hope he would have agreed to stay working in Switzerland only visiting France to ski with his partner and in return BASI agree to wait till the culmination of the legal case or if unfortunately SB had issues in Switzerland. They then could address the short falls within their proceedures to ensure nothing like this should happen again.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Given that SB would presumably still pass a CRB check anyzway I really don't see why all the focus is on a French "conviction" that wouldn't be against the law in the UK anyway.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| TTT wrote: |
| @irie, and where do you think that leaves SB then - a convicted criminal who has fallen in with UKIP and Daily Mail who has been abusive about the French and BASI and wants to take the rights away of millions? |
You've lost the plot.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| laundryman wrote: |
Yes, (SB) has lobbied the political parties that represent his constituency in Europe: UKIP and the Conservatives. That doesn't amount to endorsing the policies of either party.
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There are also Labour, LibDem and Green MEPs representing the SE England constituency, so I don't think it's really accurate to say he's simply gone to his local MEP. Also the UKIP MEP with whom SB has been most associated is from the other end of the country. I don't think you can really get away from the fact that he's allied himself with UKIP which, IMO, is a woeful error of judgement for a Brit who has made a living working in the EU. However I also think the merits of his case are unrelated to his dubious political ally.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So far as I can see (as an outsider) many people have lost the plot.
The French authorities by saying that top level instructors from other countries are equivalent to their own but then saying ONLY French qualified instructors can set up a training school seem to be contradicting themselves and MAY be breaking EU rules.
BASI do not seem to be properly representing their own members on an international basis, there also seems to be odd goings on financially if the reports are to be believed and I'm not even considering their actions against SB which to an outsider look to be very bad.
S B who knew the French rules concerning lower level instructors operating in France but employed them anyway and then was surprised at being arrested.
So far as I can see no one is completely innocent
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| TTT wrote: |
| BASI have apologised for the way things happened and rightly are working on improving the disciplinary procedures. |
They apologised for 'the manner in which events unfolded in the circumstances'. Circumstances that could so easily have been avoided. They did not at any time apologise for causing the said circumstances.
What improvements to the disciplinary procedures? Don't recall seeing any information on that. When was that made known to members?
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| speed098 wrote: |
@TTT,
SB is not trying to take away the rights of millions we are talking hundreds at min a few thousand at most so again sensationalism. It can be argued strongly he is fighting for the rights of lower level ie L2 BASI members to work more freely in France and also for BASI L4 to be able to form training schools something BASI themselves are not doing to the best of their ability.
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Take a look at the fairwages thread to understand what tour operators like SB are really trying to achieve.
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Not really. AFAIK resorts in the USA control who can instruct within the resort. That's a completely different situation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| I don't think you can really get away from the fact that he's allied himself with UKIP which, IMO, is a woeful error of judgement for a Brit who has made a living working in the EU. However I also think the merits of his case are unrelated to his dubious political ally. |
For the sake of fairness, some points of fact:
1. Europe is where SB has been making a living. The EU must not be equated to Europe - Europe is a geographical area and includes Switzerland which by all accounts is where SB has also been/is making a living. Switzerland is not in the EU.
2. UKIP is not anti-Europe, neither are most/all Eurosceptics in the Conservative and Labour parties. They are anti-EU - that is absolutely not the same thing as being anti-Europe. This is what it says on the UKIP website
And for the avoidance of doubt I am a political agnostic. As it happens I am anti-EU and pro-Europe and have children called Pierre and Gisèle so don't try to label me as anti-Europe because it will simply look silly. 
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 15-12-14 18:34; edited 1 time in total
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@TTT, Nice literal "letter of the law" parsing. Ask 99.99% of snowheads what they would understand a self declared "punter skier" to be and they would probably say not professionally qualified AND not one who works in a professional capacity. I don't know why you feel the need to obfuscate so much when you do have credible things to say. It undermines your valid arguments because we don't know where you'll jump next. And if you truly don't like skiing why waste your time doing it ( unless you mean in the 10cc sense in which case excellent diversion again).
I am sorry you've become such a punching bag on this thread but as we're never likely to get to a real objective truth you're all we've got to rail against 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @TTT,( unless you mean in the 10cc sense in which case excellent diversion again). |
Life is a Minestrone ???
And the seat of learning
And the flush of success
Relieves a constipated mind
I'm like a gourmet in a skid row diner
A fitting menu for a dilettante
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
So far as I can see (as an outsider) many people have lost the plot.
The French authorities by saying that top level instructors from other countries are equivalent to their own but then saying ONLY French qualified instructors can set up a training school seem to be contradicting themselves and MAY be breaking EU rules.
BASI do not seem to be properly representing their own members on an international basis, there also seems to be odd goings on financially if the reports are to be believed and I'm not even considering their actions against SB which to an outsider look to be very bad.
S B who knew the French rules concerning lower level instructors operating in France but employed them anyway and then was surprised at being arrested.
So far as I can see no one is completely innocent |
If it was that simple this thread would have stopped 26 pages ago.
Oh... hang on, it is and it hasn't. 
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@BergenBergen, Dreadlock Holiday
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You know it makes sense.
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| BergenBergen wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @TTT,( unless you mean in the 10cc sense in which case excellent diversion again). |
Life is a Minestrone ???
And the seat of learning
And the flush of success
Relieves a constipated mind
I'm like a gourmet in a skid row diner
A fitting menu for a dilettante |
It might be a "I don't like skiiii-ing, oh no, I loooove it." reference from:
I say, I don't like cricket, oh no, I love it.
I don't like cricket, no no, I love it.
Don't you walk through my words. You got to show some respect.
Don't you walk through my words, Cause you ain't heard me out yet
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| Not really. AFAIK resorts in the USA control who can instruct within the resort. That's a completely different situation. |
In the US and Canada you are increasingly likely to be taught by a lowly qualified gap year kid on minimum wage. Unless the ESF stick to their guns the same will happen in France.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Kenny, why?
Ski schools and resorts are organised in entirely different ways on each side of the pond, with resort ownership and control being the critical factor.
I'd be worried for the system if it was ESF vs. CMB/CdA.
It seems from reports that many UK users of fridges are quite happy being taught by lower cert instructors.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Kenny wrote: |
| dogwatch wrote: |
| Not really. AFAIK resorts in the USA control who can instruct within the resort. That's a completely different situation. |
In the US and Canada you are increasingly likely to be taught by a lowly qualified gap year kid on minimum wage. Unless the ESF stick to their guns the same will happen in France. |
Lowly qualified? Nobody is arguing that anybody more lowly qualified than the ESF already employs should be instructing. Actually the L3 instructors in question were more qualified than the stagieres ESF employs.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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BASI 4 instructors can teach in France. SB wants to teach in France... why hasn't he done BASI 4?
All the British instructors I have used in France have BASI 4 and they are able to instruct.
Maybe I'm missing something, but all he needed to do was complete BASI 4. So I don't understand why he would choose not to get a qualification that he needs to be able to do his job?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Flaine skier, Simon Butler is a BASI L4/ISTD.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Flaine skier, you have missed something, the previous 25 pages perhaps. SB was top British qualified, it used to be called BASI 1, then international ski teacher, before level 4 even existed.
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| Kenny wrote: |
| dogwatch wrote: |
| Not really. AFAIK resorts in the USA control who can instruct within the resort. That's a completely different situation. |
In the US and Canada you are increasingly likely to be taught by a lowly qualified gap year kid on minimum wage. Unless the ESF stick to their guns the same will happen in France. |
And your point is? Protectionism of a trade that doesn't need to be so complex for the majority of customers? Let's not fool ourselves, while higher qualifications are needed for high level instruction, the quality if an individual's instruction is as much about their personal qualities as the badges they wear. NAmerican ski schools have hiring clinics where they test this and a vocal consumer base who are not afraid to give tough feedback.
Maybe we should ask are the US skiers
who take an equivalent number of lessons as Brits from the ESF any worse skiers - I'd suggest not. Of course SB's customers seem to universally claim they've progressed even better. But what do idiot punters know? It's not about their wants and needs after all.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, as a SB customer / idiot punter, I do indeed think I've progressed better than if I'd rocked up over the years to hire a random instructor from the ESF or any other organisation operating a similar business model. But it's not even the main point for me. I *enjoy* skiing with the SBS crew and they offer a formula which suits me, my family and my friends. I really can't see why third parties should interfere with such arrangements between consenting adults. I'd rather they tried to tempt me away with better offers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| irie wrote: |
1. Europe is where SB has been making a living. The EU must not be equated to Europe - Europe is a geographical area and includes Switzerland which by all accounts is where SB has also been/is making a living. Switzerland is not in the EU.
2. UKIP is not anti-Europe, neither are most/all Eurosceptics in the Conservative and Labour parties. They are anti-EU - that is absolutely not the same thing as being anti-Europe. This is what it says on the UKIP website
And for the avoidance of doubt I am a political agnostic. As it happens I am anti-EU and pro-Europe and have children called Pierre and Gisèle so don't try to label me as anti-Europe because it will simply look silly. |
But with issues like these the EU and Europe are intrinsically linked...The EU is why SB can, or should be able to, freely work in Europe... So supporting an anti-EU (as in let's take the UK out..) political agenda when working in Europe is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot..
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Pulling out of EU as SB advocates would potentially impact millions who live and work across EU including ski instructors and people who work for firms located in UK because UK part of EU. Understand why SB did it but think he should have taken this standard lawyers advice and only release factual legal statements as BASI has done as lost his credibility although see that it is great advertising for a certain niche market.
New disciplinary procedures will be discussed at next BASI forum.
I'm absolute rubbish compared to a professional skier who makes their living from instructing so I stand by the punter skier comment. Obviously far too young to remember 10CC but yes sometimes and also another song maybe relevant
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FAQ
